my friends problem

[Natkat]

I know one ftm guy his 18 live with his parents when his not at school.
--
for some time ago he got permission to do his top-surgery, a permission who had taking him many years to get.
his cheast is rather big and I been told by another friend that he really seams to want to have it done soon. which I sure understand.

the problem is.

the place where he had been for getting permission is f* up .
I really cant explain it in this text cause its very complicated system but in general alot of people complain about it.
I had been there some years ago and I wasnt confortable or satified with the threatment either + I got refused.

I honestly dont trust these people, there are few transgender people who been satified being there but most people feel bad about the place, theres so many storys, about bad surgery result, about people getting refused for nothing, about people felling humiliated or even sexually harasmed. I could go on, but in general I really hate this place and as I see it people only go there cause there desperart or ignorant about how they threat people.
--
so his one of these few lucky getting permission,

and he sure been there as well for along time and he never been happy about the place either or trust those people.
(But when you are less than 18 theres limited options of what you can do)

he say he want to do it somewhere ells, like on another hospital or go to another country making his surgery (like I did and which I am very satified with)
But he is scared of doing it.

first of all:, when you got the permission you can get your surgery for free, but not if you travel outside the country to do it. and he dont have that much money.
second: then his parents are agenst him going somewhere ells, they belive this place he is now is good, and that they got way better since I was there (which is a few years)
third: he is scared if he now, as one of the few people getting permission will go agenst them or demand something it will mean they will cut him out and do something dramatic so his not going to get surgery anyway or other problems.

its just a pretty bad situation cause neither is his parrent or this hospital to trust.
I had together with some other trans folks tried to talk to his parrent that this hospital is crap and they should use the extra money to go somewhere where they threat people fair and where you can demand a accepted result, but they won't listen to anything I say.

on the other hand we talk top surgery, and his large so it wont be keyhole, I wonder if it that much of a surgery they can f** up, and if its not that much a risk compared to what it could be.
I mean having bottom surgery sure is risky but top surgery is rather simple I guess so maybe it dosent matter that much with experience as long there gone?
-------
Its all VERY complicated, this is like the most easy version of it, But I dont think I or other people can convince the parrent to let him go somewhere ells, I spoked to a jounalish who talked about published  about this hospital who will prove some fact on how they threat transgenders (which currently only people being there had known about), I used that as an agument for his parent, that if they dont belive me they would see im right soon,
but honestly im not sure if it going to get published or any big news.

so if not they will never belive me and just think im crazy.
----------------
what do you think I should advice him to do:

a) he should just go get his result there for free now when he had used so much time to get permission, top surgery isnt that risky, and its better than letting him wait again for an unknown amount of time.

b) he should run the risk go agenst his parrent and the hospital to find another hospital, it would be very hard as he will sacrifice what he gained to save up money and he can risk to wait even longer, but its more important he go somewhere with a good rumour and where he can trust people than to play safe.

[aleon515]

Not sure I followed this all but I'll try.

Top surgery sure as heck can be risky-- not just for whether you like the results but in terms of health. It is a double mastectomy plus some neat little work with grafting, after all. It's maybe not at the same complication level as bottom surgery but it carries risk.
So it counts to be careful where you get this.

I don't think there is usually any reason to travel outside the country, unless you live in some little country somewhere. I just don't think it makes financial sense-- but maybe someone could prove me wrong here. But I see the point of traveling in the US (or around other country-- you sound like you are not in the US so I don't know the particulars) as there may be a point of having someone who has done thousands fo them vs someone who has done less than a hundred. I am thinking about the same thing. There is a local guy who is new to this or I could go to someone like Garramone. My thoughts are to go to Garramone right now.
You definitely want to have someone who knows what they are doing.

--Jay J

[Natkat]

Not sure I followed this all but I'll try.

Top surgery sure as heck can be risky-- not just for whether you like the results but in terms of health. It is a double mastectomy plus some neat little work with grafting, after all. It's maybe not at the same complication level as bottom surgery but it carries risk.
So it counts to be careful where you get this.

I don't think there is usually any reason to travel outside the country, unless you live in some little country somewhere. I just don't think it makes financial sense-- but maybe someone could prove me wrong here. But I see the point of traveling in the US (or around other country-- you sound like you are not in the US so I don't know the particulars) as there may be a point of having someone who has done thousands fo them vs someone who has done less than a hundred. I am thinking about the same thing. There is a local guy who is new to this or I could go to someone like Garramone. My thoughts are to go to Garramone right now.
You definitely want to have someone who knows what they are doing.

--Jay J

Nope I'm in Europa and I understand it to be very diffrent from the US, I never been to the US so I cant be sure of all the informations (I wanna check it up if im ever going there), but as I understand the rules are diffrent and that there isnt as much diffrent on where you are as in Europa.
in Europa it REALLY depends on which country your in how your life as a trans person gonna be. some countrys are more or less Okay where you can live as a transperson, have your gender marked changed, job, and so, and some are horrible with no future or very its very hard.
so theres a big gap ex between german and lithuania, and for many european living in less accepted countrys it can be much better to travel.
---
I dont know much about double mastertomy, I had keyhole so that was basically what I had my knowlegde on. I think that the hospital got around 0-6 surgerys each year who are made under gender identety problems. it can be bottom surgery, castration, top surgery, and so,
I don't know if its top surgery.

Also I heard that each time they make a surgery they double the number so if they have done 5 surgerys in 3 years then they writte 10 surgery's in 10 years. so I cant give an exact number but it said they at there higest make 6 surgery in 1 year, who is related to gender-identety both mtf and ftm, and I dont have any idea how many of those is top surgery or not. so as said is very hard getting an exact view, I havent even seen any result of there surgery unless 1 transguy I know who got keyhole there and who was in some newspaper where you could see his surgery for some of the first days.

as mention before very few people get permission, amount these few people not all of them is ftm (but most are) and not all of those are to make top surgery there.
I dont think for those bagroundknolegde have made 100 top surgerys,
maybe 10-25 top surgerys in 25 years less I am not sure but I dont belive the result can be high.
-----
having my top surgery myself when I as 18 I know how hard it is to wait.
it dosent sound like alot but if you knew from a young age and spend alot of time getting permission and the opurtunaty then its along time. I would feel horrible if his going to wait another year after spending 4 years trying to gain permission,

I just feel pretty bad for it, when I was 18 I traveled abord, for a couple of diffrent reasons. one was of some politicas mess who where going around agenst transpeople having surgery and getting homones, which I didnt want to make any worse.
another was that I wanted to go somewhere where they had experience with the surgery and had tried it alot of times before.
I never regreat my desisions, I felt it was the right thing to do at the moment (probably almost the only option there but still I was lucky) but I felt so satified with the threatment and result.
the hospital was very famours and had people from all over Europa even people from US who prefern to go there.
I always recomend it to people who want top surgery cause its not that far away. (no matter where you live in the country you can be there in 1 day if you have a car and a ferry ticket) and they are very famous and threat you well. Sure money is an issue but its not that expensive.
I know alot of guys who went there as well.

For me its really like Paridice vs hell, for gettin the top surgery,

I never saw the mastermind behind the hospital who rejefused me and would make surgery on my friend I only heard him  in some radio show once, where he talked about the surgery and so, and how he just show all the patiens bloody pictures to show how horrible it could turn out. I dont know if thats normal but I didnt do that when I got my surgery, the doctor looked at me and showed me some pictures of what they could make and a nurse told me all the practical information about complications and recovering.

[Taka]

i suppose your talking about the rigshospitalet? seriously, i'd never trust an institution that has "monopoly" on the treatment, especially not if it's a governmental business. listen to rumors, go for the good ones. rikshospitalet in norway also has a bad reputation, and that's in the same kind of idiotic system where serious research and the best for the patient isn't really something they're too interested in.

before taking the surgery, he should ask about the surgeon at least. how many breast surgeries has he done, using what methods? and how were the results, how happy were the patients? breast reduction on cis women also counts in this, not only mastectomy. i remember an islandic guy here who got a very good result from a surgeon who'd only done breast reductions before.

and if the surgeon can't explain in detail how he's planning to do the operation to get the best possible result, then i wouldn't trust them at all.

just some things to think about...


also refer to this article: http://politiken.dk/debat/kroniker/ECE1433590/forstaa-dog-de-transkoennede/

Jeg har aldrig hørt om transmænd, der har fortrudt brystoperationen. Nogle har fortrudt, de fik foretaget den på Rigshospitalet, der ofte ikke retter op på beskæmmende fejl og mangler, og hvor ventetiden er nedbrydende lang.

Jeg er en af de heldige få, der på Sexologisk Klinik har fået transseksueldiagnosen.

Jeg er bl.a. berettiget til brystoperation. Jeg valgte selv at betale 30.000 kr. for indgrebet hos en privatpraktiserende plastikkirurg. Det er ubetinget mit livs bedste investering.

not gonna tl that to english..

[aleon515]

Breast reduction might be fairly equivalent to keyhole, I suppose. In fact, I have heard of guys in the US getting "breast reduction". They "code" it for insurance purposes as breast reduction, we just don't ask how *much* reduction. For DI it's different. DI is nothing like reduction as the doc has to figure how where nipples would be and place/size them correctly. Difficult stuff.

It's a crazy thing. In the US many people can't get treated because they can't get the money together. In Europe many more people can get treated but the treatment in some areas sounds way under par. Also the waits can seem (and often are) pretty arbitrary. Attitudes on trans and how minority of a population we are, probably causes most of this. Counting surgeries sounds laugable, if it weren't people's lives we are talking about.

As for how bad it can turn out-- I'm guessing it can. OTOH, this is a person who sounds like he spends more time talking about that it can turn out badly than trying to improve things.

As far as speeding up the process--- sounds like it would be wise to go elsewhere!! A note here about age. I think this is interesting and might be useful. If you are 18, one year is 1/18th of your life. If you are 40, one year is 1/40th of your life. It might be why older people seem a lot more able to wait. Could even be a talking point or way to argue with someone. (Of course, in my case, I didn't even know what I was waiting for or why.)

--Jay J

[Natkat]

i suppose your talking about the rigshospitalet? seriously, i'd never trust an institution that has "monopoly" on the treatment, especially not if it's a governmental business. listen to rumors, go for the good ones. rikshospitalet in norway also has a bad reputation, and that's in the same kind of idiotic system where serious research and the best for the patient isn't really something they're too interested in.

before taking the surgery, he should ask about the surgeon at least. how many breast surgeries has he done, using what methods? and how were the results, how happy were the patients? breast reduction on cis women also counts in this, not only mastectomy. i remember an islandic guy here who got a very good result from a surgeon who'd only done breast reductions before.

and if the surgeon can't explain in detail how he's planning to do the operation to get the best possible result, then i wouldn't trust them at all.

just some things to think about...


also refer to this article: http://politiken.dk/debat/kroniker/ECE1433590/forstaa-dog-de-transkoennede/not gonna tl that to english..

Yep, thats what Im talking about, you know me too well. hehe

I have and did do some reseach of it in Norway as well since I thought of going there for permission, but it also sound to be very hard so I bet if I should get permission then it wouldnt be much of an option either. (enough about me)
for the few people and text I know of it sound almost simular threatment, exemp a few details but yeah we agree that its really not good enough.

as said there is a few other hospitals here beside who done this surgery privatly, now the rules has changed so you can only go to them if you got permission (which is a new rule they made)
theres a few people I know who seached for hospitals, those dont really have much experience either and depending on where they had gone I heard some diffrent storys.
I myself went to 2 diffrent doctors after I was refused threatment, one was a very sweet lady who only had done breast surgerys, for cancer patients and so. She was understanding of my situation and wanted to help me but I didnt feel she got enough knowlegde that I wanted to do surgery with her, she seamed very unexperienced and if I had done the surgery I would had got home with big scars who wouldnt had been nessesarry.
the other doctor have done a couple of top surgery on ftms, I dont think he got much experience but his more to trust, I have talked to him and trust him, and I have only heard people being satified with him. and my friend also thought him as an option.
unfortunately the goverment dont trust him and like any other privat people who want to help tranexuals he got threatned alot and generally his shown as being "the madman who do work with transgenders" which is so ridiculous because, yeah maybe he havent done alot of surgery before but he do threat his patients with respect and I never heard a guy complain about the threatment being with him, and where my friends parents want him to have surgery its like 90% of everyone I talk to has some bad story to tell.
-------

[Taka]

it's better to wait a while and save money so he can get a good result. if the result is bad from rigshospitalet, then he'll have to pay a private clinic to fix it anyway....

and what i tried to refer to above, when it comes to surgeons who have experience with breast reductions and stuff. the methods they are used to are important, though:

(2 weeks post-op tomorrow, gonna add photo then)

I was a little nervous before surgery because I'm from a small town in a tiny country and so there's only two doctors who've done "this" before and I didn't like either of those, so I went to someone who'd never converted a chest from a "female configuration" to a "male configuration" and.. well, if anyone else's experience is anything to learn from, going to someone completely inexperienced is likely to backfire.
Now, this doc's the finest in breast augmentations and reductions in the country however, and an orthopedic surgeon as well, so the odds were in favor of him knowing what he's doing, but there's always that little "he's never done _this_ before" that makes ya nervous.

Gotta say though, I don't think anyone's done this good in the first try that I've ever heard of.
Good luck getting me to wear shirts after I'm healed up!

and
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,113437.msg865161.html#msg865161
sounds like such a good doctor to have...

[Natkat]

Breast reduction might be fairly equivalent to keyhole, I suppose. In fact, I have heard of guys in the US getting "breast reduction". They "code" it for insurance purposes as breast reduction, we just don't ask how *much* reduction. For DI it's different. DI is nothing like reduction as the doc has to figure how where nipples would be and place/size them correctly. Difficult stuff.

It's a crazy thing. In the US many people can't get treated because they can't get the money together. In Europe many more people can get treated but the treatment in some areas sounds way under par. Also the waits can seem (and often are) pretty arbitrary. Attitudes on trans and how minority of a population we are, probably causes most of this. Counting surgeries sounds laugable, if it weren't people's lives we are talking about.

As for how bad it can turn out-- I'm guessing it can. OTOH, this is a person who sounds like he spends more time talking about that it can turn out badly than trying to improve things.

As far as speeding up the process--- sounds like it would be wise to go elsewhere!! A note here about age. I think this is interesting and might be useful. If you are 18, one year is 1/18th of your life. If you are 40, one year is 1/40th of your life. It might be why older people seem a lot more able to wait. Could even be a talking point or way to argue with someone. (Of course, in my case, I didn't even know what I was waiting for or why.)

--Jay J

Money is still a big issue, if you dont have enough money to do surgery then you can only hope your one of those few lucky getting permission and as mention the threatment isnt good.
..
I seen his cheast and I can say 100% that we arnt talking about keyhole, so breast reduction wont be an option.
I am in my belifs he should go to the same hospital as me, or just someone ells where they can do it right, But I am unsure if I am being selfish so I wanted to know the opinion.

for more practical.

if I take it as a yes, that he should go to another place, then what do I do?
about his famely?
about money?

I heard a girl talking about donation for some party but I dont think it will work either.
any idea

[Natkat]

it's better to wait a while and save money so he can get a good result. if the result is bad from rigshospitalet, then he'll have to pay a private clinic to fix it anyway....

and what i tried to refer to above, when it comes to surgeons who have experience with breast reductions and stuff. the methods they are used to are important, though:and
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,113437.msg865161.html#msg865161
sounds like such a good doctor to have...

oh thanks,
also for your article.

Simon who wrotte it have talked to my friends famely (who sadly dont want to listen),
his a very knowlegde guy about Risk as he got he first got his gender marked changed after 18 years in the system.
he do say that if you wanna stay in the country and be post up and have bottom surgery that you should go try get permission for Risk, and if you dont want bottom surgery then you just not waste your time on them. I am not sure if he want bottom surgery or not, but I think he do.

my friend did get homones outside Risk, so I dont think that its his biggest worry, I think its manly his famely who is most of the problem. If just they would belive in us it would be more easy to figure out something.

[Taka]

the most ridiculous about places like that is that they're entitled to use force if they judge a patient mentally unstable. i've heard stories about patients in norway who've been persuaded by doctors to take treatment that isn't really right for them. i'd worry about them doing a hysterectomy at the same time as that mastectomy on a patient who really only wants one of them

honestly, how can his parents trust a place that treats their son as a mental case? and don't have the necessary experience in doing those surgeries

[Natkat]

the most ridiculous about places like that is that they're entitled to use force if they judge a patient mentally unstable. i've heard stories about patients in norway who've been persuaded by doctors to take treatment that isn't really right for them. i'd worry about them doing a hysterectomy at the same time as that mastectomy on a patient who really only wants one of them

honestly, how can his parents trust a place that treats their son as a mental case? and don't have the necessary experience in doing those surgeries

because 2 things,

1, they have meet the surgion, as they got very impressed by, he said his profecinal which only is halftrue,
its true his profecionel in many other kinds of surgery but NOT on surgery related to trans issues. I honestly dont belive you can call yourself "a profecional" if you only done a couple of surgery.

2 another thing is build on lies the general population belive in. its almost only TG people and a few cisgenders who knows about this systems true form cause regular people dont need to look into it. so they base there knowlegde on the media and on recomendations, which would had been logical if those recomendations wasnt based on misunderstandings and lies.
as you read Jens pillgaard got into big trouble for his surgerys, and where threatned to lose his job or in worst caise maybe prison. im very happy it didnt went so far, but thats how it works.

not to mention acording to Risk than WE are the bad guys, risk dont want you to have contact with other transfolks, neither do the general goverment suport those doctors who help transgender beyond risk, So they almost previewed as criminels.

So I cant figure out if his parrent are thinking practical but with a clasical huge mistake like general cisgenders, without knowlegde.

or if there just "dont want to belive"
--
I just want to figure out if theres a way, maybe with activism work or something?
if not then my only hope would be for that newspaper..

[Taka]

my words for the kid's parents (my general opinion, relates to everything, not only tg matters):

1, they have meet the surgion, as they got very impressed by, he said his profecinal which only is halftrue,
its true his profecionel in many other kinds of surgery but NOT on surgery related to trans issues. I honestly dont belive you can call yourself "a profecional" if you only done a couple of surgery.

pics or he's lying. and pics of more than just one guy, please

2 another thing is build on lies the general population belive in. its almost only TG people and a few cisgenders who knows about this systems true form cause regular people dont need to look into it. so they base there knowlegde on the media and on recomendations, which would had been logical if those recomendations wasnt based on misunderstandings and lies.
as you read Jens pillgaard got into big trouble for his surgerys, and where threatned to lose his job or in worst caise maybe prison. im very happy it didnt went so far, but thats how it works.

if you want to know a doctor, ask his patients. not his boss

not to mention acording to Risk than WE are the bad guys, risk dont want you to have contact with other transfolks, neither do the general goverment suport those doctors who help transgender beyond risk, So they almost previewed as criminels.

does your kid appear mental to you? if not, hth can you leave him in the hands of people like that?
and if you do think he's as crazy as the docs say, you really should get to know your kid better before trying to make any decisions for him

So I cant figure out if his parrent are thinking practical but with a clasical huge mistake like general cisgenders, without knowlegde.

if you don't have knowledge, seek it out. ignorance is a crime when it comes to medicine.
or if your kid needs your help.

[Natkat]

my words for the kid's parents (my general opinion, relates to everything, not only tg matters):
pics or he's lying. and pics of more than just one guy, please
if you want to know a doctor, ask his patients. not his boss
does your kid appear mental to you? if not, hth can you leave him in the hands of people like that?
and if you do think he's as crazy as the docs say, you really should get to know your kid better before trying to make any decisions for him
if you don't have knowledge, seek it out. ignorance is a crime when it comes to medicine.
or if your kid needs your help.

Yeah okay, we agree for the matter, I am just this kind of type who always try figure out a reason why people do as they do, and beside this point his parrent seamd accepting to me.

I f** up alittle myself with his parrent trust because politically I have disagreed with both and I think my agument just had putted me on bad light more than other -__-

I will call him one of the days ask him how its going and for the plan, I dont really want to give up easly, maybe I could find something in the media who speak critical for the system. who isn't Just for trans-comunety speaks but who actually welldocumented for politicals, I know there is some, its just hard to find on paper. I have only few contacts with the politicals folks, as you know many dont want to discuss the topic.
maybe kahmal qureshi could be an option, he where one of the few politicals who showed interes in the meeting for transgenders a year ago, and I think we got more or less same opinion. if not I still think if there would be an activism way to change the situation?

[Taka]

hmm... maybe what you need to find aren't other trans people, but the parents of other trans kids. many parents aren't prepared to listen to anyone's kids, since they're just kids. and it's a "known fact" that kids don't know what's best for them (totally illogical reasoning, heh), not even when they're 30-40 years old, unless they have kids themselves. parents have a tendency to listen a lot more to other parents

and what i wrote above is of course my opinion as a parent, not a tg person. if my daughter, or even sibling or close friend, was in need of surgery, i'd take them to the best possible place. and i'd ask other patients about how the treatment at any specific place was. lots to consider, and anyone who cares for their child really should do this rather than trust blindly in the authorities. they're known for lying

[Natkat]

hmm... maybe what you need to find aren't other trans people, but the parents of other trans kids. many parents aren't prepared to listen to anyone's kids, since they're just kids. and it's a "known fact" that kids don't know what's best for them (totally illogical reasoning, heh), not even when they're 30-40 years old, unless they have kids themselves. parents have a tendency to listen a lot more to other parents

and what i wrote above is of course my opinion as a parent, not a tg person. if my daughter, or even sibling or close friend, was in need of surgery, i'd take them to the best possible place. and i'd ask other patients about how the treatment at any specific place was. lots to consider, and anyone who cares for their child really should do this rather than trust blindly in the authorities. they're known for lying

I spoke to him here yesterday,
he said he had choosed to go to risk and use the money for an moterbike.
its honestly not what I had hoped but I cant really choose what he should do so I have just said its important he speak with some other trans who made surgery there first before he go.
--
your thing with parents make sense, in one way im just a kid but the "just kid" still had been into the system they dont know about who is the same of there soon, I hoped that was enough provement but sadly no.

for parent of transgender its limit who I know since its limited of young transfolks, limited of young transgenders who are or have been in the system, and where the parents are accepting or more or less.

I only know 2 parents, one of a friend of us which mother seams rather cool,
the other one is my mother.

I think I could try this out, it generally sound like he have made up his mind, im just rather worried. general I belive when your 18 your old enough to deside for your own body and if he wanna have it for free and then he dont need to use so much money for that, and he can have a peacefull relationship with his parrent and Risk, then okay I its his chooise and I think its a stupid choise but I cant change it.

what im worried about is his base his dessision on the fear of what will happent if he dosent do it. I used along time yesterday cause I got pretty mad at a guy who said "its his choise" to tell him what can happent in worst caise if he dosent do it,
the he in his worst caise can get rejejcted for future surgerys and be forced to move to another country if he ever want to ex have bottom surgery or get his gender marked changed(well maybe it can still be done without risk but im not 100% sure).
I never felt it would be a fair chooise.

you know my mother isnt the best trans-friend mother But for health she do care, and she also worked a bit with health as a doctor secretary and nurse-helper* (im not sure what it is in english?)

I see if it posible to mix together a meeting with some parents.

[Taka]

if he says he'd rather use the money for a motorcycle, then... there's not much you can do. he probably won't die, and if the result is unsatisfactory, there's still the option of saving up money to get some other clinic to fix him up.

having a meeting with trans kids' parents sounds like an interesting idea. that could be a good thing to do even if it doesn't help in this case.

[Natkat]

if he says he'd rather use the money for a motorcycle, then... there's not much you can do. he probably won't die, and if the result is unsatisfactory, there's still the option of saving up money to get some other clinic to fix him up.

having a meeting with trans kids' parents sounds like an interesting idea. that could be a good thing to do even if it doesn't help in this case.

true I cant change his mind, but I hope I can change the view of his parrent so at least they will work together with us,
whatever he do I cant deside but I think Im allowed to be worryed and make sure his doing it right.