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College Allows Transgender Man to Expose Himself to Young Girls

Started by Shana A, November 02, 2012, 08:29:37 AM

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eshaver

See ya on the road folks !!!
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Isabelle

Here's a link to the police report
http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf

I fully support the rights of women and girls to have safe spaces, and I don't think people with penises get to tell people without them how they should feel about being forced to see one in a place they have the full expectation not to.

This reminds me of  the dystopian story 1984... Where the state can beat your mind till it makes you believe 2+2=5 with legeslation. "Transgenders" are doing those of us born with a medical condition a great disservice by assuming a mandate to speak for the "spectrum"  then they stand beside us with their "umbrella" held high. I don't want to be under an umbrella with people who deliberately expose their "male" genitals and believe it is their "right" to do so.
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Stephe

"The life guard (Justin) requested Tiffany to go to the sauna and check it out and she did at which time she observed Collen sitting with her legs open with her male genitalia showing and Tiffany said "You need to leave."

The above happened the day before this other indecent occurred so she has been confronted multiple times about displaying her junk in this public womens space. IMHO she did this the second day on purpose to try to "prove a point". The -I have the legal right to be in here so screw you-.

And this doesn't look to me like some right wing conspiracy set up to turn back the hands of time. Tiffany did apologize for "questioning her but there are girls going in there 8-18 years old who aren't used to seeing individuals like her."

The two options here appear to be: a) pre-op women use a touch of common sense and not sit in a woman sauna with their legs spread open (or walk around locker rooms naked etc) with their junk on display or b) we make a special adult only facilities and restrict all women under the age of 18 from being allowed into them.

I know this is a trans forum and all but come on people, is FORCING an issue like this on society really helping acceptance of us as women? Of course Fox news reported this in a hostile manner, calling him a "man" etc but this is exactly the sorts of incidents that give these people fuel to attack us with. Like I said earlier, ABC news reported this in a strictly neutral fashion and it still sounds bad, because it was.
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Shantel

Good call Stephe, I second your opinion and point of view!
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Stephe

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dalebert

Quote from: Stephe on November 22, 2012, 01:49:23 PM
"The life guard (Justin) requested Tiffany to go to the sauna and check it out and she did at which time she observed Collen sitting with her legs open with her male genitalia showing and Tiffany said "You need to leave."

The above happened the day before this other indecent occurred so she has been confronted multiple times about displaying her junk in this public womens space. IMHO she did this the second day on purpose to try to "prove a point". The -I have the legal right to be in here so screw you-.

I was holding off judgment until I heard more details about this story with the understanding that social conservatives will blow everything out of proportion. Having heard some more details finally, that sounds pretty inappropriate and I do think it's not helpful to achieving a more accepting culture.

tekla

There are several things in the world - strip clubs, sex stores, bars, exclusive private clubs, nightclubs, discos, golf courses - where kids are banned pretty much all the time.  Everyone seems OK with that.  They are after all, adult experiences.  I'm just having a lot of trouble with the notion that college is not also an 'adult experience' (and not all adults at that) and perhaps for this (among a lot of other behaviors occurring in and around the college environs). 

There are lots of things on a college campus that junior high/HS kids probably should not be exposed to, such as the routine knowledge of how to make things explode that is found in all college level chem classes, but everyone is down with NEVER including as part of a Jr.High level science class. Right?

Back when I went - stone age I know - people did this streak thing.  Now would I encourage a bunch of people to strip naked and run around an elementary school?  No.  That would be wrong.  Was it 'wrong' in the same why when they did it at midnight (drinking/drunk usually) around the Quad?  Dumb, sure, bonding moment perhaps, fun - oh those college days crap - sure, idiotic in the Midwest in fall?  Oh yeah.  Over the line stupid after the first snowfall?, Nah, I remember it as 'invigorating'.  But 'wrong' as in some moral rule has been broken, not really.  (Men running naked through the snow tend not to have much to show for it at any rate.)

Now, those just two examples - and I could add TONS - of things taught and done in colleges that make it a very adult place.  Not kid tested  Not mother approved.

Now...No one is forced to go to college.  Hence, no one is ever forced to go to one particular college.  The range of colleges (and universities, yeah, yeah) is huge, and that's a good thing.  Not all people are the same, and not all institutions can teach everything.  Some like Evergreen here are pretty damn tree-huggin', FruitLoops, both feet in the air liberal (in the classical sense of those words) while others like Liberty University, Oral Roberts, and almost any college with 'Bible' in the name, tends to a more restrictive experience.  Schools that have some configuration of 'science / agriculture / technology/Tech' in the school's official name skew education in a different direction that schools that have 'art' or 'arts and letters' in name do.   People can, and should try to match their college to themselves and find the best condition in which to thrive.  Right?  Right.

So, it's pretty simple so far right?  If you want a good science education you don't to to a school with Bible in the name, if you want bitchin' Bible studies classes avoid science and technology schools.  CalTech teaches a very different kind of genesis than does Jacksonville Theological Seminary and Revelation Message Bible College - right?

Furthermore, all colleges (and they all used to take this stuff real seriously, and many still do) have formal polices for students and teachers that spell out a code of conduct, and the institution itself has guidelines about what specific values are to be upheld, and which downplayed.  And part of Evergreen's mission/codes/policies is a very open and accepting LGBT policy. 

We all applaud that don't we?  Don't we?  Don't we think OR and Liberty and _________ Bible College are 'against us' for not only not have polices in place to protect LGBT students, but work actively to kick them out?  So getting the libs to turn on the libs and criticize a college for having (and truly trying to make it work) a policy of accommodation to TG individuals, well that's pretty special isn't it?

Because this person - and I'd submit every other crunchy on that campus - CHOSE to go to Evergreen because of those very mission/codes/policies (even if they didn't know them in a formal sense, they knew it was a 'liberal' school), just like anyone going to Oral Roberts ain't going for the swinging good times, and nobody goes to BYU for their legendary drinking parties.  Just like no group should have the right or freedom to go to OR and force them to 'lively up themselves' or open a bar in the middle of the BYU campus (unless the university, facility and students all agreed, and no chance of that happening), no one outside the college should be able to force Evergreen accommodate them either.  Some YMCA swim club (or whatever) should not be able to dictate what that college policies are.  If it's not to their liking they should stay off campus.  And kids in particular need to massively supervised on a college campus to the  point that it's best not to bring them.

Evergreen should be allowed to uphold it's policies on it's campus, that's more important than a swim team.  Colleges are far more important to the future than swim teams are (unless the oceans really are rising that fast) and it's important to have as wide an array of colleges as possible.  Because up to this point in history no one has had a monopoly on truth and/or discovery.  So, that being true, we need to promote all possible alternatives.

OK, colleges are keys to the future, they are labs, things are tested there and moved into general population here on Prison Planet.  What happens there can spread out.  Do you want Now Going Backwards in TG Rights to be a new trend?

SEE.... Why should their 'rights' to be who they are, accepted as part of the school's own policies, be on a time table?

What, they can only be outwardly TG in these* special locations, at these* special hours?  Is that what you're suggesting?  Hey, can I get you down to like 20 TG minutes a day? Would that be alright?

MOREOVER - if you can get away with this crap at Evergreen, then where's that train going to stop?  Near you ?  On you?  If they can get away with this type of restriction, how many more restrictions (and in how many more places) will they push for?

You know if you start carving out exemptions there's no end to it.  Everyone will want one (trust me on this).  All God's Chlin' Wants A Special Exemption.  And if 'for the children' is the overriding value to TG rights, the TG Trump Card, then so much for TG persons to ever teach, or work with kids, or adopt - this goes a long way, it's a HUGE door to open, and once it's open you ain't going to be able to close it very easy. 

Had other people at the school had problems with it?  The other women and men of the facility, where are their protests?  Well, in fact, they don't exist because the very code of Evergreen is basically 'if you have a problem with LGBT people, then the problem is yours' not ours - so get your own head straight."  It's considered (un PC if you will) and hence, a liability to bring it up at all.  Everyone at Evergreen - as part of it being so damn warm and fuzzy and liberal and all, is expected to treat trans persons like they would any other person.  Period. 

And now you want to give some outside group the power to alter that policy to it's will.

TRANSGENDER RIGHTS STRICTLY ENFORCED! (unless in the presence of swim team - or other non-member of the college community)

or is it...

TRANSGENDER PEOPLE HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS (after the completion of all necessary operations, chemical treatments and psychiatric sessions including passing the MMPI at least once and whatever else the powers to be fancy as being necessary)



And based on what?  A story on Fox, or in WND?  Really?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Stephe

Quote from: tekla on November 23, 2012, 12:16:19 PM

Had other people at the school had problems with it?  The other women and men of the facility, where are their protests?


Clearly you didn't bother to read the police report.

There were several separate instances where people complained, one was the day before. And just because the police weren't called each time, doesn't mean people had no problem with her -displaying- her penis in a womens locker room.  This isn't "bible thumper vs us" nor something some Fox news types orchestrated. And I don't think the rules should be changed over this.

Sadly some people like this Collen  woman don't have the common sense to realize it's probably not a good idea to sit in a sauna as a pre-op with your legs spread open with your junk visible to everyone in a womans locker room area. Because that is what she was doing. Sorry but I don't respect the rights of people to be THIS in your face "Screw you it's legal for me to be in here, so YOU have to deal with whatever I chose to do" attitude. It's a thing called respect of others, which many people today don't seem to have ever been taught.
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Kelly-087

Quote from: Stephe on November 22, 2012, 01:49:23 PM
"The life guard (Justin) requested Tiffany to go to the sauna and check it out and she did at which time she observed Collen sitting with her legs open with her male genitalia showing and Tiffany said "You need to leave."



The two options here appear to be: a) pre-op women use a touch of common sense and not sit in a woman sauna with their legs spread open (or walk around locker rooms naked etc) with their junk on display or b) we make a special adult only facilities and restrict all women under the age of 18 from being allowed into them.

-I- Would have told her to not only leave, but to GTFO!

IMO, those of use who are pre or non op have a duty to prove to society, and other women that we are not "men in dresses" who like exposing ourselves to unsuspecting girls.

I honestly couldn't possible ever imagine doing this myself. Ever. I can't imagine that most of us feel differently on that either.

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Snowpaw

Quote from: Kelly-087 on November 25, 2012, 01:00:34 AM
-I- Would have told her to not only leave, but to GTFO!

IMO, those of use who are pre or non op have a duty to prove to society, and other women that we are not "men in dresses" who like exposing ourselves to unsuspecting girls.

I honestly couldn't possible ever imagine doing this myself. Ever. I can't imagine that most of us feel differently on that either.

Hmmm in all the ranting and raving in this thread (myself included) this post sticks out as logical. We do have a duty to this, yes we all want to believe we should have rights right now but truth be told that's just not how it works. We have to show society what we really are and assuming this article is factual in any way it just doesn't prove that. It hurts us. Good post.
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Carbon

If that police report is accurate then I think some of the stuff she's doing is weird but I would feel that way about a non trans person too. I don't think her trans status should come into it, she should just be asked to cover up more (but still able to quickly change clothes).

I mean would you want some middle age man sitting around naked in an enclosed space next to boys who are changing?

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Stephe

Quote from: Carbon on November 25, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
If that police report is accurate then I think some of the stuff she's doing is weird but I would feel that way about a non trans person too. I don't think her trans status should come into it, she should just be asked to cover up more (but still able to quickly change clothes).

I mean would you want some middle age man sitting around naked in an enclosed space next to boys who are changing?

How is that even close to being the same thing?

As a child I swam at the Y, and yes there are public showers, males of all ages "exposed" while changing etc. Guys stand at a trough with their penis's in the hand at most large event restrooms, should they "cover up" too? People don't "cover up" in situations like this when around the same sex.  No one would bat at eye at this, anymore than would anyone care if a female is walking around in womens only space naked or you could see her genitals or breasts.

No one would have cared if this person hadn't displayed her -wrong- genitals. A penis -displayed- in a womens only area is simply wrong.
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Kelly-087

Quote from: Stephe on November 25, 2012, 07:22:14 PM
How is that even close to being the same thing?

As a child I swam at the Y, and yes there are public showers, males of all ages "exposed" while changing etc. Guys stand at a trough with their penis's in the hand at most large event restrooms, should they "cover up" too? People don't "cover up" in situations like this when around the same sex.  No one would bat at eye at this, anymore than would anyone care if a female is walking around in womens only space naked or you could see her genitals or breasts.

No one would have cared if this person hadn't displayed her -wrong- genitals. A penis -displayed- in a womens only area is simply wrong.

If I were a little girl, in a locker room. And a natal woman was sitting in the sauna, nude, with her legs spread wide open.. I don't think my mother would have been cool with that.

I do think people are focusing more on the genitals than the behavior. But this woman had some very weird behavior.
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Carbon

Quote from: Kelly-087 on November 26, 2012, 12:06:01 AM
If I were a little girl, in a locker room. And a natal woman was sitting in the sauna, nude, with her legs spread wide open.. I don't think my mother would have been cool with that.

I do think people are focusing more on the genitals than the behavior. But this woman had some very weird behavior.

Yeah, this is what I meant. Like if there was a middle age man just sitting around naked not doing anything next to a bunch of kids... not really okay in my book. (and urinals often do have little walls to give some privacy ::))

It's possible that she's being described inaccurately or targeted because she is trans and the descriptions of her behavior are not accurate. It's also possible that she's genuinely acting inappropriately. Right now I'm starting to think it's probably some of both, just because I can't imagine people with an agenda NOT jumping on this regardless of her actions, but the police reports include descriptions from a bunch of other people and probably aren't completely fabricated on the part of the police. At this point I'd have no trouble with her being told to cover up more though and, f she continues to do things like "sitting in the sauna, nude, with her legs spread wide open," asked not to use the area again.

The argument of people opposed to this because she's trans seems to boil down to this:
"No one would have cared if this person hadn't displayed her -wrong- genitals. A penis -displayed- in a womens only area is simply wrong. "

Which is kind of ridiculous wording if someone is just changing her clothes. Someone quickly changing into the bathing suit isn't like someone standing a bench proudly saying "Look at this!", which is what "displays" makes me thing of. No one should be "displaying" their genitals in the sense that I use the word. But even if we include quickly changing into a bathing suit and stuff like that under "displays," we basically just have a lot of people repeating that it's wrong without any kind of reasoning beyond restating it ( ie "This is self evidently wrong," "This is a women's space. I define a women's space as somewhere that this is wrong. Therefore, this is wrong," etc).
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Carbon

Also, about urinals, it's kind of an unspoken rule that you don't use the urinal directly next to someone if at all possible. You just don't. So if there's like a wall of twenty urinals with only you there on the far right one and this guy comes and uses the one directly next to you, yes that's not appropriate. Personally I wouldn't use one right next to someone even if there was one available, I'd either use a stall or wait (I still present as male right now).

So I mean the fact that men will do stuff like pee near each doesn't mean they're waving their junk in people's faces or something, the ideas of privacy, respect, etc are still hopefully in play.
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dalebert

I still remember my dad taking me to a fancy gym they had just gotten a membership for so we could go swimming and we walked through the men's locker room. I was really freaked out. Sometimes I wonder if it was exaggerated in my memory, but I seem to recall naked men being everywhere. I definitely recall one naked guy walking and staring down at himself in a weird way. It's one of those memories that has really stuck with me. I was very young and I think I tried to cling to my dad for protection. At that age, it wouldn't have mattered whether they were men or women, I don't think. I had never seen naked adults before.

Shantel

It can be regarded as eyeball assault and it ain't pretty! >:(
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Kelly-087

Quote from: Carbon on November 26, 2012, 07:59:19 AM

It's possible that she's being described inaccurately or targeted because she is trans and the descriptions of her behavior are not accurate. It's also possible that she's genuinely acting inappropriately. Right now I'm starting to think it's probably some of both, just because I can't imagine people with an agenda NOT jumping on this regardless of her actions, but the police reports include descriptions from a bunch of other people and probably aren't completely fabricated on the part of the police. At this point I'd have no trouble with her being told to cover up more though and, f she continues to do things like "sitting in the sauna, nude, with her legs spread wide open," asked not to use the area again.
It could an in-accurate description. But if she were taking any real steps to cover up, I doubt there would have been the supposed multiple complaints. Even when I was a boy in my teens I would wrap a towel around my waist if I were ever changing anything that exposing. Now, if I as a pre-op girl were needing to be in a locker room, I think I would take extra steps to not cause a fuss among the other girls.

Quote
The argument of people opposed to this because she's trans seems to boil down to this:
"No one would have cared if this person hadn't displayed her -wrong- genitals. A penis -displayed- in a womens only area is simply wrong. "
This is quite true. I think that is a sheer inflammatory piece and Im sure we're only seeing one side. But I'm betting tons of us use the girls locker room and don't have this problem. If you read the comments on the fox news article they are quite severe. It's quite funny that most of the people so upset and infuriated about this are men! There's hardly any female comments on it! So basically, all these people so upset about whats right about the 'womens only' space would never belong there in this lifetime and body.

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SophieAlyx

Colleen Francis and the infamous Evergreen State College incident

    November 13, 2013
Cristan Williams

http://www.transadvocate.com/colleen-francis-and-the-infamous-evergreen-state-college-incident_n_10765.htm

Here's what may not have not heard:

    The sauna area was off limits to the two teens.
    Unless one specifically tries to see inside the sauna, you can't view the people inside the sauna.
    Colleen Francis AND her cisgender female friend were using the sauna together. They were sitting there talking.
    At no point did Francis act to expose herself to children.
    At no point was Francis walking around nude in the area where children were.

So, the actual story is that two 17 year olds went into an area they weren't allowed, attempted to view the people in the sauna and saw Francis. The rest of what you've probably heard about this incident is, at this point, an urban myth.

=======

I think that this article is a pretty important one. I didn't see reference to it anywhere on this topic thread, but it needs to be here. 

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suzifrommd

Hi Sophie. Welcome to Susan's.  :icon_wave:

Here are some links to site policies and other helpful information:


This is a really old thread. The last post came about a year before the article you posted. Usually posts go quiet once they haven't been visited for a while. I'll leave your lilnk there for historical reference.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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