College Allows Transgender Man to Expose Himself to Young Girls

[Ave]

Okay, sure. Not passing well enough, perhaps, but still looking more female than male. I think the point remains that this person will feel much more awkward both to herself and to others in the men's locker room.

I know someone's gonna poke fun of my *think of the children!*-esque response, but...think of those in the women's locker room. Why appropriate said space and make underage teenage girls feel unsafe?

[Shana A]

No offense meant, but objectively, said person didn't look or pass enough which is why she was spotted.

Based on seeing the news photo, I think she'd have significant harassment problems using the men's room. Since when is a trans woman required to "pass" to be free from discrimination?

Z

[Incarnadine]

Since when is a trans woman required to "pass" to be free from discrimination?

Z

Why is it discrimination?  Where is the unjust and prejudicial treatment?  Why is it a good thing that she be allowed to show off her male reproductive organs to underage females?

Society makes the laws, both written and unwritten.  The written law is that she exposed her male genitals to a group of underage females.  To prosecute on those charges is not discrimination; it is enforcing the law.

The unwritten law is that society does not accept dangly bits on women.  Society therefore determines that Colleen's dangly bits disqualify her from being able to prance about sans clothing in the women's locker room because of the presence of underage girls.  That's not discrimination, that's society's definitions. 

If Colleen wants to be able to prance anywhere and everywhere, she must first change society's definition of male and female, man and woman.  While society may open up and allow those definitions to be expanded upon, as we have done with the definition of the word "marriage," society requires such fundamental words to have some limitations. 

Society only works well and perpetuitates itself with limitations.  You can glorify a Bohemian and anarchistal communal lifestyle until you're blue in the face, but the fact is those things simply won't last.  There will always be and always has been something on the inside or outside that disrupts such a commune.  It is in our nature to destroy ourselves.  Society must have rules to protect itself from self-destruction.  And if that means prancing is allowed only in certain areas, then society is simply trying to protect itself.  Our American society has established Judeo-Christian ethics to protect itself from collapse, and has therefore limited itself to behavior that somewhat fits within that framework.  To change such a framework would redefine America.

Bottom line - the more we expand and change the definitions of such foundational and fundamental terms as man and woman, the more confusion we infuse.  The more confusion and disorder introduced into a closed system, the more unstable and volatile it becomes.  It works in the tangible sciences as well as the societal sciences.

[Shana A]

Since when is a trans woman required to "pass" to be free from discrimination?

Z

Why is it a good thing that she be allowed to show off her male reproductive organs to underage females?

I didn't say anything about showing her genitalia. I was addressing a comment someone made that implied that she didn't pass. Many of us don't fit neatly into a binary gender expression, and we all need to be able to use restrooms. Safely, without harassment.

It was never mentioned that she exposed herself in early articles about this. That is a meme that has been repeated by certain media sources who are using this to justify their reasons for discriminating against transgender people.

Z

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

From what I understand, she was there first.  The school messed up because it was not posted that the girls' team was coming.

[Elsa.G]

i came across a article on yahoo today about a 45 year old transwoman who still has male genitals that uses a woman's locker room in Washington, anyway this is causing a stir with people there. Needless to say the comments are rampant with transphobia. So what is you'r opinion? http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/transgender-student-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar-221516308--abc-news-topstories.html

[Shawn Sunshine]

the YMCA in San Francisco at Embarcadero, seemed to imply to me I could never ever use the women's locker room unless I had srs surgery done, so they said i would have to use the family room to change and take a shower in a unisex stall. At least that is what they have told me over the phone. Yet a FTM employee works there and they say they go into the mens locker room to change and no one ever bothers to look at them downstairs , due to the fact men (heterosexual anyways) don't tend to stare at your area if they see another guy.

I personally wish other men and women would not worry about such things and see that person as a woman.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Apparently, the transwoman did not keep "it" under wraps. This is a no no. Still, it sounds like a witch hunt. People need to get real and worry about things that really matter.

[toxicblue]

People often thing that getting SRS means that they look like a woman, which totally isn't true. Someone who passes well but hasn't had surgery yet would probably be much better off in the woman's locker room, considering they would just look like a woman in the men's locker room. If they don't exactly pass well, then they should be aware of the (unfortunate) fact that they will have a hard time with other people in the locker room and won't be taken all that seriously.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

the YMCA in San Francisco at Embarcadero, seemed to imply to me I could never ever use the women's locker room unless I had srs surgery done, so they said i would have to use the family room to change and take a shower in a unisex stall. At least that is what they have told me over the phone. Yet a FTM employee works there and they say they go into the mens locker room to change and no one ever bothers to look at them downstairs , due to the fact men (heterosexual anyways) don't tend to stare at your area if they see another guy.

I personally wish other women would not worry about such things and see that person as a woman.

That is because your driver's license IDs you as male, I suppose. People don't care about FtMs.  The male hegemony identifies the vagina as a lack of a penis. No one cares about the lack of something.

[Natkat]

why is it a deal? if you need to pee go pee, man or woman.
no I dont think it matter what part you pee with as long thats what you do.

[Tristan]

I think you should be allowed to use the locker room of your choice however if your pre op or non op it would be smart to keep the bottoms on. I use the woman's changing room and I have never had a problem, but I dont go parading around naked showing my genitals. And even then I cant really go to the changing room after gym (I only go before) because after two hours of running and sweating im no longer "tucked" and at that point I dare not show up with a visible bulge

thats some two hour work out girl. i know at school after my chesticles they told me i had to use the ladies room.

[Alyx.]

Ah yahoo news. Where the most prime, educated commenters flock to civilly discuss their informed opinions on the most recent global happenings.

[dalebert]

Why is it discrimination?  Where is the unjust and prejudicial treatment?  Why is it a good thing that she be allowed to show off her male reproductive organs to underage females?

If she were literally flashing people, then you're right, but that appears to be an exaggeration or complete fabrication versus what really happened. What seems to have happened is she just doesn't pass 100% even though she looks far too female to be using the men's locker room without likely getting harassed. Based on the language of the complainers, I suspect no one ever actually saw the "dangly bits". They're just transphobic folks using hyperbole. Most everyone here is in agreement that the polite thing to do is to keep those covered in any public spaces.

[Stephe]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/transgender-student-in-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar/

[Isabelle]

I use women's change rooms (what else am I supposed to use??) No one has ever so much as raised an eyebrow but, I do keep certain areas covered. I don't think there's any reason this woman should be allowing her bits to be seen. It's really unsurprising that some people have raised concerns. There are a million ways around this.

[suzifrommd]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/transgender-student-in-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar/

Thanks for posting this, Stephe. Kind of depressing at the face of it, but I noticed this article was careful to use a pronoun. A small victory at least.

[the_physicist]

Why would any transsexual want to show their bits to anyone so openly, much less in a place where they are way more conspicuous. I mean, jeesh, use a little common sense if you want to use facilities associated with the gender you identify. And honestly, kind of makes you wonder just what the heck they are thinking even doing that. We can't rule out some sort of sexual thrill they could be getting just because they identify as trans and this just makes people associate that sort of thing more with us.

it's not easy when you can't feel you can use either facility, but yeah, definitely this. use common sense. this happened in the USA where from what i hear there are always some cabins and showers with curtains and the like. it's not like the kind of communal changing rooms and showers i grew up with where there is no hiding anywhere and you have to struggle to think of creative ways to not come across like a some weirdo prude to now show off your bits (i'm intersex). there are probably easy options for this woman.

however, considering the sources i also have to wonder if maybe it was an accidental exposure once or that it never even happened and the whole 'penis' thing was made up. i guess we can't know for sure.

[Stephe]

I guess I see this as "Do you REALLY need to change your clothes that bad?" I mean if I did go to a gym, I would just wear gym clothes there and wear them home, avoid the whole situation. Or wear sweats over them. I just simple wouldn't go to a womans only sauna. THAT is a luxury anyway. Trying to take every liberty we possibly can risks hurting others and I'm not talking about the 17 year old girl who saw them. Who this person hurt was every transgender person in this country. They gave the right wing press fuel to wage a war against us, to sway lawmakers to think twice about passing laws in our favor etc. This case will get brought up every time a "bathroom issue" arises. How we feel honestly doesn't matter, it's "What is the public perception?" and it's not good.

We -are- an emerging minority and what we do today will affect how the public treats transgender people for decades. I understand  that I need to work extra hard to put a positive light when I interact with others. I work hard to have people think "I know one transwoman and she is the nicest person I know". For many people we are the first transperson they will interact with and the impression we leave will affect everyone who comes after us. 

[Carbon]

Wait, she's using the facilities at the college she pays money to go to. The girls are allowed to go there as an act of charity, but do not pay money to go there. Why on earth can't she the same facilities as other students? If the girls don't want to see her genitalia than why are they looking at her junk? IMO someone who examines the genatalia of people in a bathroom or locker room should be seen as a sexual predator. If you don't want to see it don't look.

I personally wouldn't do what she is doing, but she's basically just changing clothes, using the sauna, etc. And there's all this talk about her potentially doing it for "sexual thrills" when there's absolutely no evidence of this... like would a cis person be put under the same scrutiny? I think people would wait for actual evidence of wrongdoing before talking like that.

And yeah, if she was flashing the girls, going up to them and standing creepily close to them when she changed clothes, etc, that would be different, but that doesn't need to be treated differently based on if the person is trans or cis. And basically all we have is that a girl saw her sitting in the sauna (by herself, not hurting anybody) and went back and told people there was a man in there and all this stuff happens.

What if she was intersex? Would it be okay for her to use the suana then? What if someone is missing a limb or had their face disfigured in an accident? Do we need to protect people from seeing that too (since plenty of people find those things "disturbing")?

Geeeeze.