College Allows Transgender Man to Expose Himself to Young Girls

[suzifrommd]

Want equal access to express yourself fully as a woman?  Then you'll need to completely look the part, surgery and all. 

Wait a minute. Are we saying that post-op women have the right to change in a changing room without restriction but pre-op women are some sort of second class citizens who are only given that right conditionally (i.e. if they behave the way we think they should)?

[Brooke777]

Wait a minute. Are we saying that post-op women have the right to change in a changing room without restriction but pre-op women are some sort of second class citizens who are only given that right conditionally (i.e. if they behave the way we think they should)?

With how society currently is, yes we are second class citezens (if not 3rd or 4th class). I think it is horrible and wrong. But, society is slow to change and I believe this level of change will not happen for another 20-30 years.

[Incarnadine]

Wait a minute. Are we saying that post-op women have the right to change in a changing room without restriction but pre-op women are some sort of second class citizens who are only given that right conditionally (i.e. if they behave the way we think they should)?

All American citizens are given conditional rights.  All laws are based upon behaving the way we think people should behave.  We are not an anarchy.  Our personal freedoms are limited by others' personal freedoms, whether we like it or not.  We do not have permission to express ourselves any way we want to, hence decency laws. 

If an individual cannot abide by laws, then they need to buy themselves an island somewhere.

Please do not misread that sentence to mean that I'm for rounding certain people up and shipping them off or sticking them behind fences.  The focus is on individual choices and responsibilities.

"Bad men cannot make good citizens... A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles." - Patrick Henry. 

I'm not saying Colleen cannot express herself as a woman, I'm saying that every individual is responsible to limit themselves as needed for the greater good of our nation, whether that be responsible spending, freedom of speech and expression, individual religous worship, serving in the military, or any other personal decision.  If it means giving up exposing yourself to young girls, then please, for the greater good, keep your clothes on!

[Incarnadine]

How should they prosecute her?
And what if she is just changing in the locker room to avoid bullies and such from infringing upon her own rights?
(I personally agree with you on a fundamental level but I am playing devil's advocate.)

For breaking indecency laws.  Nothing more, unless she has a history of sexual predation, then it might be worth an investigation into whether she exposed herself for the sexual thrill.  It would be difficult to determine motive, but if there is a sexual motive, then she's a sex offender and should be prosecuted as such. 

Avoiding bullies?  If her purpose is to simply change clothes, can't she find a bathroom stall to change in?  Again, it boils down to personal responsibility and considering someone else before expressing yourself.

[Incarnadine]

She's not just simply changing, they report her as using the sauna, walking about and such.  I'm pre-op, I've used shower stalls in a women's bath house and I've changed into a swimsuit in women's change facilities, but I do it discreetly, no one can see anything out of the ordinary and I would be mortified if anyone saw my bits. I've not had any issues as I take others into consideration.

This is, imo, the best option!  You've expressed yourself, communicating to others that you're a woman, while at the same time being considerate of the opinions and feelings of others! 

[Brooke777]

What, is everyone afraid that they'll find out one of the great truths in life too early?  That truth being: The only people you ever get to see naked are exactly the people you never want to see naked.

A truth I wish I had never learned

[Damian]

It's legal in many places. However, note that I said "different standards". People called the police and they tried to arrest a friend of mine for walking down the street topless on a very hot day. She was surrounded by friends who were men, also topless. The cop was on the radio for a while trying to figure out how to arrest her even though she wasn't breaking the law and eventually conceded and let her go, but she'd already been detained like a criminal. Meanwhile, people will probably continue to call the police on people like her if they see it and will complain and try to change the law all based on some notion of how the sight of a woman's breasts will tragically corrupt children (after the age of 2 but before the age of 18 or something for some reason).

Haha, as if breast feeding doesn't count.

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

I am sorry but it is totally not OK to expose children to this sort of things.



Now you have some "common cents", please use it.

[tekla]

I am sorry but it is totally not OK to expose children to this sort of things.  Now you have some "common cents", please use it.

Yeah, about that... turns out that what you are really saying is not common sense, but rather a highly romantic notion of childhood as some sort of never-never land, replete with the Victorian morality that gave that hideous notion birth in the first place.  Oh my god, it's a penis!  Somehow the 200,000 violent acts on television that the average American child will witness by age 18 is A-OK, but no, not the human body - that's NOT OK to expose kids to.  Really, that's sick (as I tried to say above).

And it totally ignores that these kids have grown up with the internet and I'll bet they've not only seen much bigger penis's, they've seen them in hot (man on man, man on babe) action.   And that's nothing new, do you think that back when families lived in single room dwellings that somehow the children were 'unaware' of sex?  That back before indoor plumbing and private bathrooms that girls never saw a wee-wee?

I've watched lots of kids who grew up in hippie housing, communes and the like, and you know what?  Didn't seem to make a difference that they saw naked people every day.  They got over it - quickly at that.  As will these girls.  I've raised two of my own kids and did major league work with a the kids of a few of my friends - all have reached honorable adulthood.  They are reasonably smart, work hard and don't seem all kinds of whacked out about sex, despite having had it around pretty openly all their life.

If this is the most traumatic, most horrible thing ever to happen to them in their life - then they are pretty blessed.

[Brooke777]

There are different ways for children to be exposed to the human body. I prefer to keep it in a controlled environment. My son loves watching documentaries. Thus, he watches one on the human body. He learns things that many children don't learn till they are older. It is a good way for him to learn. I don't think that seeing a pre-op trans woman walking around nude, or sitting nude in the sauna is an appropriate way for children to learn about the trans woman body. Just my opinion.

[AngieT]

I fully support her right to use those facilities, however my support stops when it devolves to unnecessary physical exposure to minors.  This isn't right, and not much different from the Penn State scandal involving Jerry Sandusky.  IF this had happened anywhere else, arrest and prosecution for indecent exposure would have been justified. 

In my opinion, this story, which occurred almost a month ago, is getting publicity now for only one reason: Politics

Washington residents will vote next week on legalizing same sex marriage.  This story is being circulated to sway public opinion against the GLBT community in an effort to kill that referendum.  In the past 2 days I've seen this story posted in two other forums, neither of which are GLBT related.  My observation is that 99.9% of the readers are outraged, and this single story has served to destroy a level of GLBT acceptance that's taken me and others a very long time to build.  We need all the friends we can muster, and stories like this are certainly harmful in their impact to the overall community.       

[Brooke777]

Washington residents will vote next week on legalizing same sex marriage.

Go Ref. 74!!

[Kaelin]

If there's an adult exposing themselves to "young children," then gender-related matters are irrelevant.  Incidental viewing might happen in certain circumstances, but exhibitionism is already illegal.

So yeah, it's a bogus issue conflating gender/transgender issues for political gain.

[CindyLouCovington]

I think Colleen acted in a totally irresponsible manner,and showed a total lack of concern for those girls' feelings. Just because she had the right to use those facilities doesn't mean that she didn't have to exercise a little discretion and common sense.She sounds like an idiot getting her kicks by shocking people, and that doesn't help any of us.In effect she was saying,"I have the right to use thses facilities,so I will do whatever I want!".She may be a woman but is certainly no lady.What ever happened to common courtesy?

[Brooke777]

What ever happened to common courtesy?

It died in the U.S. I was told that happened during the 60s

[Snowpaw]

The wording of this article is intentionally inflammatory. Little girls? I think they mean women. This is a college yes? Just thought I would put that out there.

[Brooke777]

The wording of this article is intentionally inflammatory. Little girls? I think they mean women. This is a college yes? Just thought I would put that out there.

The article does say girls as young as six use those facilities. Also, the original complaint came from a 17 year old girl. I know, 17 year olds are adults in many places. But here in the U.S., they are legally children. Not to mention most of the ones I have met act like children.

[Brooke777]

Hmm. Well then it just sounds like a sick <not allowed> doing what sickos do. Sorry I have no tolerance for people exposing to children or harming children.. Shoot them all I say, there is no fixing a mind that would harm children save for a quick death before they do any damage. I just saw college and that fox news, figured it was their typical shoddy reporting.

a .22 caliber bullet is much cheaper than prison...just saying 

[Dawn Heart]

I think that this trans individual should have used better decision making since she hasn't had surgery yet. The right to use a women's facility for privately going to the bathroom is just fine, changing in the stall or using another method of being prepared to undress without showing the parts not yet fixed by surgical means is a better idea. I say maybe change into the bathing suit before coming to the event and then only undressing so far as to only show the swimsuit underneath the original clothing is a better idea.

These people calling the trans woman a man is just wrong, and saying that being trans is a sexual "proclivity" is even worse since it is all about gender identity, not sexual fantasy.

[tekla]

It went the same way as critical thinking, so we have no manners, and we also have: not much different from the Penn State scandal involving Jerry Sandusky.  OK forcible anal rape of children age 10-15 over multiple years is the same as a 17 year old girl seeing a naked male genitals.  Somehow I see that as kinda hugely different.  OK, this person is a big idiot, and no doubt an attention whore too - but as they grow up in America I have it on pretty good authority that these girls are going to have to deal with a lot of other similar idiots.  It's never too early in life to start actively ignoring people, in many cases, the earlier the better.  Start with WND (known as Wing Nut Daily in the news biz - and on the extreme right, there is crazy, really crazy, Really, REALLY REALLY! like a senate candidate saying that she was not a witch crazy, then there is WND), and move on to Fox - what a wonderful world it is when that crap ain't resounding in your head.

So yeah, it's about politics and not just the election, but Evergreen is a ground-zero school for crunchy granola tree hugging hippie types.  How far out is Evergreen?  Oh:Faculty issue narrative evaluations of students' work rather than grades far out.  A leader, pioneer really in organic farming with an emphasis on sustainability, home to the Washington State Institute for Public Policy (left leaning), and Matt Groening, the creator of The Simpsons, is an alum.  So it's as much about trying to poke Evergreen in the eye as it is about trying to swing an election.

I know, 17 year olds are adults in many places. But here in the U.S., they are legally children. Not to mention most of the ones I have met act like children.
Well I spend a lot of time in the presence of women who are 17 (and I'm down with calling them 'girls' is demeaning, as it's supposed to be). Raves.  Backstage, with their favorite band and all that.  They are not all that innocent.  Really.  When you actually have to interact with them (and not just witness them from a distance, like a game warden) you'll find that I was spot-on with calling them 'children' being basically a highly romantic notion of childhood as some sort of never-never land, replete with the Victorian morality that gave that hideous notion birth in the first place. / Oops! You think I'm in love / That I'm sent from above / I'm not that innocent.  (first quote mine, second is somebody famous to some people)