Identity vs. medical condition.

[wheat thins are delicious]

Can you explain what you mean more specifically?

I'm talking specifically about people who assume they must be trans because they like doing typical male activities (if they are female) or typical female activities (if they are male), without actually feeling any sort of discomfort in their body or dysphoria.

[aleon515]

I think that body dysphoria is not needed to be trans. But unless there is some kind of feeling of wrongness re: you and your assigned gender, may just be someone who is questioning what gender is. I am guessing there is more of that lately-- than say "my generation". I think this all bodes well for trans people. NOt sure if this is what others are referring to.

BTW, I agree that there is a concern about asking people if they are "trans enough" and making expectations about this. I know a mtf who is not super femme (I guess more tomboy or biker chick) and she has gotten flack about being trans enough.

Nice post "wheat thins are delicious" (the name?!).

--Jay J

[Sarah Louise]

The definition of dysphoria, trans, seems to be fluid.  Changing as time goes on, as people become more open about their gender feelings.

What I understood about this was shaped by the generation I was raised in and each generation will have a different understanding and expectation.

We need to allow for different levels of understanding and be patient with each other.

[aleon515]

The definition of dysphoria, trans, seems to be fluid.  Changing as time goes on, as people become more open about their gender feelings.

What I understood about this was shaped by the generation I was raised in and each generation will have a different understanding and expectation.

We need to allow for different levels of understanding and be patient with each other.

I think this is brilliant (and true, btw). I think that as things were maybe a decade ago (which was my understanding) is that someone who is transgender--at least transsexual (I don't think any other trans existed in that generation's mind) would be profoundly sad and so on in their
"body assigned at birth". I don't think this understanding is still the case. I was not, but it never seemed to really fit, so there is a feeling of mismatch and ill-ease.
I think this easily fits the understanding of trans today. There may be other things that I have no idea about. (Interesting discussion all the way, btw.)


--Jay J

[Trent Licon]

I see it is partial both.

An identity because it is who you are regardless if you go through any surgeries or not.

However, also medical. From my point of view I was born like this. So the fact I was not born male and should have been in my mind, it is also a medical problem.

That is also why some insurance agencies cover some of the costs of T and surgery. It can be considered Medical.

[Make_It_Good]

I view it solely as a medical condition, and thats at a push, as it isnt something I want to admit to myself at all, nevermind out loud as something in my life.
May seem harsh, but its how I feel and I have actually been very surprised how many people going through transition do not see things as black and white as I do. Id not come across gender "fluidity" before joining this site! :p
 
   In other areas of my life, most of them actually, Im very open minded and am not narrow in my thinking at all, however with this, I feel so strongly in how I identify as male that I dont identify with lgbt, or anything that is not on the far end of the gender spectrum.

[DriftingCrow]

I am horrible at explaining how I feel about things, but I'll give it a shot (I apologize in advance if it doesn't seem clear):

I don't see being trans* necessarily as a medical condition. I am a "Sikh-leaning" person, and I believe in reincarnation and that our souls are genderless. I believe that each life cycle is meant to teach us lessons. So, when I think of me, I don't always think of myself as I am in this present life. I know that in a past life I was a human male, so I think I was put in a female body this time because there was something that I needed to learn about females, or LGBT people that I just didn't get in my past lives.

I think on the gender spectrum, my soul tends to be more on the "male" side of things. Since my soul makes up my core being, I think that is why I sometimes act, speak, and feel what's more typically associated as male. I do have a few female friends, but the bulk of my friends have always been male, I've always been more at ease with men and they are who I've always been easily able to connect with because my core being (or identity) veers more on the male side of things.

I think trans* can be a medical condition because studies have shown that the brains of MTFs (after autopsy) tend to match the brains of biological females, and vice versa. So having something different on a physical scale would account for people having dysphoria. If I wasn't trans, I would just be a more "manly" female who was comfortable in my body-so there must be something different about my brain which explains why I think these things on my chest don't belong and why I need a big grizzly beard.

I just don't like how it's called a "medical condition" because that makes me think of something negative. I just can't equate being trans with having cancer, diabetes, or cerebral palsy, even though it's a lifelong struggle. Being trans isn't going to make me die, be sick, or disabled. But, that's just the limits of our language, physical "abnormalities" are medical conditions or defects-- there are other cultures with multiple gender categories,  and I think that's more appropriate because I don't see having a trans brain as being abnormal or unnatural.

Like previous posters, I do find medical condition labeling to be a bit troubling, because I wouldn't want people to be denied access to hormones and surgery if they fail any test that is ever made to determine if people have a physical "abnormality" which makes them trans.

[Adrian_Michael]

For me, it is both.

Why? Because I feel disgust toward the gender role I have played for so long, and because I hate the body that perpetuated the role. However, that doesn't make me more or less trans* than someone else, it is just the reasons I identify as such.

However, reading this thread, I am suddenly sickened by the holier than thou attitude of some people.

For one: "trans" means "other". So a person can identify as "trans" and be specifically talking about being of the other gender not usually associated with their biological body.

For two: My definition does not have to match up with yours. To deny me my right to feel or define myself due to your superiority complex is wrong...and has been done before....in many different aspects of history. Lets not go down that road again

[aleon515]

Just saw a video by uppercase chase (youtube). Might youtube this one. Anyway, I think he has interesting things to say about this one. His idea, and I see this is so true, is that there is maybe like a spectrum of what ftm (or mtf) is. And that people on one side (like "Make it so") see themselves as *male*. Not really transmale or whatever. But if they'd have to use a trans it would be to talk about their medical needs to be purely male. (I hope I'm not putting words in any one's mouth, Make it so.) Anyway, there are others of us for whom this is not so clear. I still want to go on T and get top surgery but I don't feel the gender binary feels so right to me. I don't think I will care if people think I'm a bit "gay looking" and that sort of thing. I know there are guys who wear make up, nail polish, etc etc.

I see this question as a bit of both, but I don't think that actually there is anythign "wrong with me". I might have been born different which is inconvenient as all get out, but not like some kind of medical fix issue. But I see the other side too. And I do now kind of see this as a different way of being trans.

--Jay J

[Isabelle]

if you don't have body dysphoria, and you just like dressing and presenting more masculine, you're not trans.  You are appropriating a medical condition,

This kind of works from me but, only if you're claiming an "identity" based on the cut of your trousers.

[Edge]

I see it as both identity and biological for a few reasons. Technically, any aspect of our identities is biological since it's all in our brains which is a biological organ. Second, having a medical condition can be part of one's identity because of the experiences. For example, I spent a large chunk of my life looking female, being referred to as female, and thinking I was female (which I now see as denial and screwed up, but still). That history isn't going to go away just because I transition. Third (and this one is personal), if I hadn't learned to trust my own perception of my identity, I wouldn't have realized I had a medical condition. I would have kept feeling like something was missing and not understanding why something still feels wrong.
Personally, I like to see my body as the medical problem, but not my male gender. I really like being male, so I don't want to see that as the problem. My body is the problem. It isn't me.
(Sorry for rambling and being a bit contradictory.)

As for the gender role thing, I think it's part of trying to figure out what gender is, but I understand and also feels the frustration toward people thinking that gender roles have to do with gender identity.
Ultimately, however, we cannot see what is going on in another person's head and they might not be completely clear on it either (which is normal and takes time).
As for the "trans enough" thing, I think that may be part of the problem with the gender role thing. This may just be me, but I feel like there's this pressure to conform to a gender role to "prove" one is "trans enough." That brings up questions like "Well, I liked dresses. Does that mean I'm not male?"

[FTMDiaries]

My body is the problem. It isn't me.

This.

As for the "trans enough" thing, I think that may be part of the problem with the gender role thing. This may just be me, but I feel like there's this pressure to conform to a gender role to "prove" one is "trans enough." That brings up questions like "Well, I liked dresses. Does that mean I'm not male?"

This too. I like 'drag queen' shoes and nail polish but I don't feel comfortable enough to wear them because of my dysphoria.

As an Aspie, I find identity politics rather boring and irrelevant. Identity is something that other people have tried to impose on me, and I'm just not that interested. If the only way to fix what's wrong with me is through medical intervention, then as far as I'm concerned I have a medical problem.

[geoangelcandybutch]

[Something for folks to be aware of: I have not read every single post on this thread. 1) because I didn't realize how long the thread was before I clicked it, and 2) because I don't like a lot of what folks are saying (which I'll explain why later in my reply). I just want everyone to know that I hadn't read it all, and didn't even get to page two.]

I'm a tumblr user. I spend a lot of time blogging on there. I follow a lot of trans* folks. However I don't follow anyone that thinks those that are genderqueer aren't actually trans* or thinks that because someone doesn't experience dysphoria that they're not trans*, because no one can tell any one else if they're trans* or not.

I'm genderqueer myself. For the longest time I had thought the only way to be trans* was from one gender to the other. I didn't know there was something in between. And everything I saw on YouTube, blogs, etc was the same thing. So I didn't know it was okay to let my feminine side out, and that sometimes me wanting to dress in a dress was OKAY. Because so many other folks were set with the same thing: T, top surgery, bottom surgery, etc. So that's all I knew for YEARS. Until it caught up with me one day and started to bother me.

Just wanted to give a little background there.

I have a really hard time with folks that think I'm not really trans* just because I'm not a man. I'm not a womon either! I'm somewhere in between. I also have a hard time with folks telling other people I know who don't get gender dysphoria, that they're not trans* because of that. As I've said before, no one can tell any one else whether they are trans* or not. Not even a counselor. No body.

If people want to call it a medical condition: That's fine. So long as they're not saying I'm not trans* just because I don't see it as such (at least for me). And just because I don't identify (I really don't like saying identify but for the sake of not confusing any one I will) as a man doesn't mean I can't transition either. I can do that all I want.

And for those that don't fit the trans* binary (trans women and trans men), we have a hard time trying to transition. A really hard time. I think even more so than the binary because we're something different that probably isn't even MENTIONED in the DSM. I'm not saying it's not hard for the trans* binary to get HRT, surgery, etc, that just it's probably harder for folks that aren't apart of the trans* binary.

My gender is MY own. It's no one's business. How I identify (again for the sake of not confusing any one I'll use this term) is my own business. No one else has the right to tell me I'm not trans*. No body. I don't tell other people they can't be trans*, or they're really not trans* because of some small thing (or big thing!).

Only each individual persyn knows whether they are trans* or not.

[eli77]

I guess I don't feel I entirely understand the topic. I don't really care what anyone else wants to call their specific variety of trans-ness. As long as they don't try to tell me what I am, I'm okay with it. I don't feel that my capacity to transition was particularly related to or hampered by anyone else. And I've met exactly one other person whose experience of gender and sex is similar to mine, so...

For me, I am female. A female with a medical condition called transsexualism. This is what makes sense to my brain. This is how I relate to my body. Transsexualism is a medical condition because it caused a crap ton of pain and made an unholy mess of large chunks of my life. I am transsexual by definition, not by identity.

"Gender identity" is not a thing I seem to have. I don't perceive myself as a woman or a man or whatever. To me those are just social categories I get assigned to on the basis of how my body is perceived. And I'm not really a fan of this categorization. Basically, I don't get along very well with gender. And it doesn't get along so well with me. Apparently this makes me non-binary or agender or genderqueer or something or other. But again, that isn't really an identity. In this case it is a lack of identity. An experience that is defined by other people using various words.

Really the only word I'm willing to claim as my own around gender or sex is female. I identify my body as female. That's it.

But again, I don't see why my experience of my body and gender and sex and identity is in any way relevant to anyone else's experience, except insofar as we can find any commonality that makes it feel a little less lonely. I feel like I'm way more interested in sameness than in difference. Maybe because I'm always so different that sameness seems rare and special. Difference is just the norm.

Other people experience and explain their trans status differently. Is this a surprise or something? Different people are different. In other news: the sky is blue and rain is wet?

[insideontheoutside]

This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.

[Darrin Scott]

This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.

This. I kinda regret starting it.

[Natkat]

I like the idea of medical condition in same way as fat people.
I mean fat people can be fat and go on without careing.
they can also do threatment to help them lose weight if thats what they want.

But i'm pretty much agenst the dignose system. the Dignose system is build so psychiatrist can tell there patients that there abnormal or sick and by that own money on them.

Why dont we stop jugding people whatever there sick or not and ask them whats best for themself.
If people do feel they need help and threatment or not,
why is it that we dont know whats best for ourself but we got strangers to jugde us with no doubt?

I think is being transgender where socially accepted this would not had been a deal, psycolygist dignoses are build on what sociaty belive to be abnormal, thats why homosexualety had been a mental dignose and now isnt anymore because it has become socially accepted in many places.

[Adrian_Michael]

This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.

Yeah, and a trans* sociology student's worst nightmare....

[Simon]

Hmm, speaking for myself I would say being a transsexual is a medical condition.

Then again my experience is based on what I have been through and it's far from a typical transition. Then if I really think back to about 12 years ago when I was far more active in the online trans community there wasn't many of us. I would say there was 25 or 30 (ftm) of us at best.

Now I couldn't guess how many of us are online. Is that more representative of a comfort level that trans folks feel to be more open or is there really that many more of us? Would the rise of transmen visibility be due to a medical condition that is growing in numbers?

To me saying this is an identity implies choice.

I may be flamed for saying this but I am almost certain there is a sub group of people who identify as transsexuals and they really aren't. I think I seen it called "transtrenders" if I'm not mistaken. It is out there. People who make a mockery of who we are for whatever selfish reason they have. They may very well fit in the umbrella term of transgender but they're not transsexuals. They serve little purpose with their visibility other than confusing people about us.

My clothes don't make me a transman (a term I normally don't use. I am just a man but for the sake of the topic I'm going with that). My likes, dislikes, social groups, upbringing, etc don't make me a transman. My brain is different than my body. My body says one thing while my brain is telling me that is incorrect and I have to medically alter my physical being so I can be comfortable with myself. That is what makes me a transman...

...and to me that sounds like a medical condition.

[Devlyn]

"People who make a mockery of who we are for whatever selfish reason they have."

No one makes a mockery of someone else by being themselves. Hugs, Devlyn