Am I outdated? Or is there just so much contention?

[padfoots666]

Someone defined transgender as an umbrella term and includes genderqueers.

I think trans is the umbrella term.
I also think transgender, transsexual, and genderqueer are different from each other but all fall under gender variance.
But that genderqueer is different from transgender and transsexual.

In my mind this is correct:

Gender variant:
>transgender
>trans(s)exual
>genderqueer
>cross-dresser
>etc

Trans:
>transgender
>transsexual

This is wrong:

Transgender:
>transsexual
>genderqueer

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square.

What are your thoughts?

[suzifrommd]

This is wrong:

Transgender:
>transsexual
>genderqueer

Susan's wiki defines transgender as "a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies that diverge from the normative gender role (woman or man) commonly, but not always, assigned at birth, as well as the role traditionally held by society."

I interpret that to mean that both genderqueer and transsexual rightly fit under transgender.

[JoanneB]

I think Transgender is fine. If you pick apart the word you get: Trans, latin for across and gender for sex. Looking at it that way then any of the sub-terms you stated, all that have cannotations of crossing the gender boundaries, falls under that umberella.

So yes, transsexual and gender queer both fit nicely under the transgender umbrella.

[eli77]

Works like this. Originally...

Transgender:
transsexual
genderqueer
cross-dresser
etc.

Some folks didn't like the word transgender though, and don't feel it applies to them (me included). Modern version:

Trans (or trans*):
transgender
transsexual
genderqueer
cross-dresser
etc.

Trans* was a useful kind of compromise as it has no independent definition of its own. It literally just refers to its component categories. The issue with transgender was that it had a meaning in addition to being used as a umbrella term. And some folks took issue with that meaning.

"Gender variant" is sometimes used to describe people who could fall under the trans* umbrella, but don't identify that way. It doesn't entirely work as a broad umbrella though. Quite a few transsexual folks in particular find it kind of offensive when people use "gender variant" to describe them.

[padfoots666]

I think you all have good points.

I do not feel genderqueers or queers fall under trans though because in my early days of internet research and going through posts on Susan's, I found that many queers did not consider themselves trans or transgender. They sort of had this thinking that there should be no gender or labels at all or at least gender and labels don't apply to them. They seemed to have their own agenda or movement in mind. Though I'm not saying this applies to all.

But this is just from my limited experience. I've never actually met any genderqueers or queers.

[peky]

Well, since you ask, IMO you are outdated, no contention.

[eli77]

Queer is sometimes used as an umbrella term for the entire LGB(T) community (there is some contention about whether trans* falls under queer or not). Or as a description for someone's sexuality it basically means anything non-straight. Genderqueer is a term used by some non-binary trans* folks. The terms have moved around a bit in the last decade.

Also, I'm queer. So, hi! Now you've met one.

[padfoots666]

Hi Sarah! I meant I never met one in person But nice to meet you!

[eshaver]

Uh , the umbrella can fit a lot of differences. I think you forgot the few who use the cross dressing in their  sexual activities though . They're known as Fetishests . ellen

[geoangelcandybutch]

I'm genderqueer, and I am indeed transgender.

I know there are quite a bit binary trans* folks out there that don't think so, but I am trans* regardless of what any one else says or regardless of what definitions say.

[Schuyler]

I don't know what I'd call myself. I use the terms non-binary and transgender (trans*) because it's the best vocabulary available so far. It's also a way to search and find for a community within those terms. If there were more accurate terms to describe each and every variant, maybe they'd be in more use. Probably not, because if we - as community - keep dividing over and over again, our numbers become smaller and more people are left behind.

[silly by the seashore]

I think the only real contention over terms comes from the elitist types, the snobby ones who don't like to associate themselves with the riff raff even with words.

Myself, I consider myself trans. But I rarely tell people that sort of thing in real life. And honestly, if it comes up, I'm more apt to just tell them "Yeah, I'm one of those people, but don't worry, I'm not that way."     If it confuses them, great. 

[aleon515]

I do not feel genderqueers or queers fall under trans though because in my early days of internet research and going through posts on Susan's, I found that many queers did not consider themselves trans or transgender. They sort of had this thinking that there should be no gender or labels at all or at least gender and labels don't apply to them. They seemed to have their own agenda or movement in mind. Though I'm not saying this applies to all.

But this is just from my limited experience. I've never actually met any genderqueers or queers.

In the early days, I think nonbinaries were not considered anything at all.

In my support group we have quite a few genderqueers (used to think I was one, NOT) but anyway the ones that go to our group definitely consider themselves trans*. They are not transsexual (I actually pretty much hate that term) because they aren't going to do medical transition. But trans* just means that you are out of or beyond gender. I don't think most genderqueers would have a problem with that definition. I think there are some who don't identify that way. I haven't asked any of them why they would feel that way. Obviously anybody who goes to a transgender support group would be identifying that way. Since I thought I was one, I spent a lot of time studying and reading about it.

Queer is different, might be more sexual orientation than gender id. BTW, try googling "the transgender umbrella". Might help you understand this better.


--Jay J

[spacial]

I must say, I think this is all very sad. But I accept that some like to define themselves separately from others.

Me? I'm transgender.

Beyond that, it's what I choose to tell people. I choose to tell people I'm British, so for them I'm British Transgender. I choose to tell everyone here, my background is MtF so to those here, I'm MtF, but to other, it is none of their concern.

I've noticed, over the years that some, simply look for reasons to attack you. The more information they have the more they attack.

[geoangelcandybutch]

I don't like the term transsexual either (but I mean if other folks want to refer to themselves at that, I'm not saying it's wrong to) because it puts so much focus on the BODY and so much focus on the medical transition aspect of being trans*.

It should also be noted that there ARE genderqueers out there that DO do HRT and some surgeries. I happen to be one of those genderqueers that plans on doing some sort of HRT. Though currently getting a letter for T isn't easy (if I try to go through Planned Parenthood), and have no way to another doctor that wouldn't require a T letter and natural transition is out of the picture right now (for a medical reason). I know another genderqueer persyn that is doing NT.

People should just be aware that every individual persyn is different. Some folks want surgery and HRT, some don't. Regardless of one's gender.

[aleon515]

goacb?!
Anyway, yes it's ok if *other* people use the term transsexual. I just don't like it used on me or to use it myself. I believe people can use whatever terms the like.
Oh yeah, I understand that genderqueers take hrt or have various surgeries. I guess it wasn't clear but I think that a transsexual is one who does this to transition so that there body matches the body their gender. Obviously that is usually fairly meaningless to many genderqueers. I myself do not consider myself to be binary, but I want to transition so that I match the *body* I feel I should have had. But I will happily go along and mess with the binary whenever I see fit.

@Laura-- Twilight zone  (To serve man.)

OP just to let you know you are obsolete.

--Jay J

[BlueSloth]

Anyway, yes it's ok if *other* people use the term transsexual. I just don't like it used on me or to use it myself. I believe people can use whatever terms the like.
Oh yeah, I understand that genderqueers take hrt or have various surgeries. I guess it wasn't clear but I think that a transsexual is one who does this to transition so that there body matches the body their gender. Obviously that is usually fairly meaningless to many genderqueers. I myself do not consider myself to be binary, but I want to transition so that I match the *body* I feel I should have had. But I will happily go along and mess with the binary whenever I see fit.

Ok... so...  that means....  umm..  *thinks for a while*  ...the body you feel you should have had doesn't match your gender, and that's why you're not transsexual?

I think my body should have been intersex.  I'm not having SRS, but HRT is a possibility.  Am I transsexual?  Anybody know?

I think I'm genderqueer because I'm non-binary, and I think I'm transgender because.... well, even if I don't count as transsexual, I'm certainly trans*.  I think if I was intersex I wouldn't be trans*... unless I wore distinctly male or female clothes, in which case I'd be transgender, because transgender includes crossdressing, right?  I guess I'd still be genderqueer, because my gender would be the same...

Umm..

Maybe I should call myself transgenderqueer, in case we're not confused enough already

[Padma]

The thing about labels (I think) i that they're just models, so they never fully represent the thing they're modelling - which is people. This means they more often than not need some further explanation, as very often the same label means different things from one person to the next. So for me, it's always interesting to find out what people like to all themselves and why, but I'm careful not to hang labels on people that they haven't chosen for themselves.

I'm one of these people that dislike the term "transsexual", but rather than say I'm transgender, I'm more likely to say "I'm going through a gender transition". I am, however, and will remain, very genderqueer - a label that to me suggests a relationship with gender that doesn't fit social expectations, in whatever way. This label fits me because I'm a trans tomboy who, post-surgery, is very likely to be packing sometimes . I'm not transitioning in order to stop being genderqueer - I'm transitioning because I'm a genderqueer woman with the wrong body parts. Ad yes, as someone else here so perfectly expressed it recently, sometimes I feel like a trans man trapped in a man's body. It doesn't have to make sense.

I'm also queer - but I really dislike that word (even though for some reason, genderqueer doesn't bother me), because other people used it on me like a weapon when I was younger. Perhaps it's a generational thing (queer seems to have a much broader meaning for younger folk than me) but to my mind's ears, queer just relates to sexual orientation. So I'm not comfortable with calling myself queer, and don't want to be called that - I'm a celibate polysexual .

As to the original question - there's a lot of contention because people get overidentified with their identities and labels, I think. So if someone who identifies as genderqueer doesn't feel they belong under the trans umbrella, that's fine with me. The umbrella is a very nebulous device, to my mind just there to protect us all from other people's spit. It's not a corral.

PS I've been labelling myself as womandrogyne for a while, because I'm somewhere between woman and androgyne - but then I came up with trandrogyne (because I wanted to include my transness), and now I want a label that's part-way between womandrogyne and trandrogyne, so I ended up with transwomandrogyne, and this is just getting silly .

[justmeinoz]

I tend to tailor the term to the situation.  If I am talking to someone who is unfamiliar with the whole thing I tend to use "transgender" to get away from the Jerry Springer connotations.
Once I am sure they understand the basics I will then refer to myself as Transsexual specifically.
Sometimes I will say I am in Gender Transition, to save time at a Dr's Surgery or similar place where they understand the concepts.

[BlueSloth]

PS I've been labelling myself as womandrogyne for a while, because I'm somewhere between woman and androgyne - but then I came up with trandrogyne (because I wanted to include my transness), and now I want a label that's part-way between womandrogyne and trandrogyne, so I ended up with transwomandrogyne, and this is just getting silly .

I'm trandrogynderquexual! 

Hmm, my spell check doesn't like that for some reason.

BTW, I tried to make one of those word hierarchy graph things but I just got confused.  All the different nuances of definition can make for some mind-bendingly twisted topologies, and I'm too sleepy to think about that sort of thing.  Oh well.