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An observation on age

Started by insideontheoutside, November 25, 2012, 01:36:53 AM

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insideontheoutside

I can't help but notice that there seem to be a lot more older MTFs than there are older FTMs. Granted, this has just been my observation from being at Susan's as well as noticing trans groups out in the larger world. I don't know if it's statistically correct but it just seems there are a lot more FTMs that are young.

This brought me to another thought and that is society's expectations for males and females. For one, I think there's still a taboo around "effeminate" males in much of western society. This seems to stretch from appearance to mannerisms to even personal likes and hobbies. Regardless if the person is trans or not society tends to give them a lot more slack if they lean towards female at all. Whereas it seems a lot more females are accepted acting, dressing or liking traditionally male things. They may catch a little slack but it doesn't seem anywhere near the level that males are subjected to. So running with this theory, could it mean that FTMs feel more confidant to not only acknowledge being trans but also start their transitions earlier?

Female puberty is also mind boggling hellish just for regular females, but it's magnified 20x for transsexuals. Bleeding from an area that causes major dysphoria is enough to make you want to puke and then jump off a cliff. Toss on chest growth for a double dose of extra dysphoria. And these are things that are not easy to hide and you just want to make them stop at all costs. I'm not making light of what any MTFs had to deal with during puberty, but I would wager that the things that female bodies do + being trans = start transition faster.

I know there's older guys on these boards, but I can only think of a small handful. The older ladies definitely seem to out number us. And I am totally fascinated by the posts of a lot of those ladies. I find a lot of thoughts like, "well, this is me, take it or leave it" – like they've really just become comfortable with the fact they're women, and they've been women their whole lives, no matter what male roles they've played over the years. There seems to be a lot more angst coming from the guys. It could be I'm just not reading everyone's posts too! But this is just my observation. Maybe some of the women can also chime in with their thoughts on this.

I can honestly say that if I were given the choice to transition when I was a teenager or even 20-something I would have snapped that up, but what happened instead is I ended up making a life for myself that I'm not keen on tossing aside at this point in the game. That doesn't mean I'm not male though. I'm actually trying to get into that mind set of, "well, this is me, take or leave it".

Perhaps the fact that the choice of transition is more well-known now, when it wasn't even when I was a teenager and in my 20's means that more people are coming to terms with it rather than trying to hide in a "normal" life in their birth-assigned gender role?
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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aleon515

Being an older guy, I have observed the same thing. Of course, I know of a few older guys here-- but not too many. I didn't really know what was going on, because it isn't talked about in my age range. And it wasn't talked about earlier in my life. I know I have been trans since I was a child, as I remember experiences pretty well.

I can't see not transitioning, now that I know about it. There have been people who have transitioned very late. We have a group on fb called Transmen over 40 with some very late transitioners.

I think it is more common for women as there seem to be more women transgenders. I don't think there actually are, but that's what people think anyway. It is less ok to live on the margins than it is for ftms. I think a lot of us are living as butch or perhaps androgynous.  I think we have all seen kind of a "boom" in the number of ftms because it is recognized now.


Before I had a very androgynous lifestyle and never identified as a woman.

--Jay J
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FTMDiaries

Oh yeah, female puberty? That was horrendous. I felt bad when I was younger, but puberty was the start of a lifelong hatred of my own body. I would've been much happier if I could've taken hormone blockers to limit the damage.

I think the reason why we're seeing more young trans people is because there's more information available today. When I first realised I was trans (back in 1990) there was certainly no information about FtMs: I had to search very hard to find out anything at all and I didn't like what I saw. So I figured I couldn't do anything about it and I'd best carry on trying to figure out what it means to be 'female', hence why I'm transitioning in my 40s.

Today you can browse the Internet from the privacy of your bedroom, so younger people coming up behind us are able to accept who they are at a much earlier age. But you raise the interesting point about there being fewer visible young MtFs and I think I may have an answer for you.

I recently read a very interesting paper (http://www.gjss.org/images/stories/volumes/7/2/3.%20Kennedy%20and%20Hellen.pdf) about the experiences of transgender children. In it, they reported that only 2% of MtF children are allowed to express their correct gender identity in school, rising to a mere 4% who were allowed to express their gender identity at home. As opposed to FtM children, of whom up to 18% were allowed some form of gender identity expression at school, and 45% were allowed to express their identity at home.

This probably makes it easier for FtMs (in general) to come to terms with our gender identity at a younger age than MtFs (in general). The few examples of very young MtFs we've recently seen in the media all seem to fall into that low percentage who had supportive parents and schools and were therefore permitted some visible expression of their gender identity.

I then read somewhere (I think in a different document by the same author) that this may be due to the different ways in which boys and girls are socialised. Boys are socialised - by their parents and by other boys - with a rigid system of paranoia against the 'other'. They defined the 'other' as anything that was not typically masculine, and anything feminine was particularly shunned as being weak or unacceptable. So male-born children are under extreme pressure to not display any feminine characteristics. The author (who is MtF) suggested that FtM children might have an easier experience of childhood because we don't suffer the same conditioning, but I disagree: this male allergy to 'femaleness' was the reason why my male friends shunned me when they got to a certain age. They couldn't handle their friends constantly asking "why are you hanging out with that girl?". And to be honest, I sure as hell didn't want to hang out with girls either, so that left me quite lonely.

They also said that this pressure on MtF children is so extreme that many grow up to attempt 'extremely masculine' activities, such as joining the military, in an attempt to prove themselves as meeting societal expectations of maleness, both to themselves and to society in general.

Bottom line is: MtFs apparently have far fewer opportunities to express their gender identity whilst growing up, so it may well take them longer to accept themselves and do what needs to be done. And this problem would have been worse for MtFs born before, say, the 1990s, back in the days when society was even more rigidly sexist and male-oriented than it is today.





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Natkat

I guess its more easy for ftms to experience in a younger age and take small steps towards transition than for mtfs.
this dose not mean I belive it to be more easy being ftm but western sociaty allows you to alittle more while your still stricly "female" so you can cut your hair, wear pants and so on, while mtfs are stucked in this
"male prejugding" to how you should behave and act.

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insideontheoutside

Yeah I really think that society is a lot more okay with females having male traits, etc. than the other way around. Even with something small like clothing - a female can wear men's pants and no one really bats an eyelash but if a male wears a skirt or a dress all hell breaks loose.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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FTMDiaries

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 25, 2012, 11:58:56 PM
Yeah I really think that society is a lot more okay with females having male traits, etc. than the other way around. Even with something small like clothing - a female can wear men's pants and no one really bats an eyelash but if a male wears a skirt or a dress all hell breaks loose.

That hasn't always been the case, and it hasn't been the case for very long. I remember that back in the 1970s it was still considered weird - almost deviant - for women to wear trousers, even though they'd started to do it. It was almost unheard of in the 1960s and earlier. There's a reason why Uhura was the only one on the Bridge in a skirt in the 1960s; notice how that changed with Tasha Yar in the 1980s? ;)

But yeah, it is that male allergy to 'otherness' that makes it so difficult for someone who is seen as male to wear a dress. Sadly, I doubt that'll change in a hurry despite some good high-profile examples like Beckham.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 26, 2012, 12:35:11 AM
Also a lot of the times young FTMs would be mad if you assumed they like masculine things, it seems like it's pretty normal for young FTMs to just like feminine things but still want to transition, not that there is anything wrong with that... Idk. It just happens pretty often.

My experience differs. I'm sure there are some (and yes, there is nothing wrong with this at all)... but most of the FtMs I know preferred masculine things, myself included. Personally, if I hadn't had an elder brother with boys' clothes and toys that I could 'borrow', I don't know how on Earth I would've coped.

Granted, many of us go through phases of trying out girly things in an attempt to figure out how to fit in... and indeed, we're socialised to play with the toys our parents give us and to wear the clothes they buy for us. Some of us had to hide our preferences just to try to fit in, or were afraid to experiment. But do we really like feminine things to the extent that we'd get angry if you suggest otherwise? I dunno... I certainly didn't. I'm curious as to whether the reaction you describe is more common in FtMs who initially identified as lesbian?

It is possible (and more than acceptable, in my opinion) to like some of the 'wrong' gender things from your past life and still want to transition.





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insideontheoutside

Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 26, 2012, 05:45:20 AM
That hasn't always been the case, and it hasn't been the case for very long. I remember that back in the 1970s it was still considered weird - almost deviant - for women to wear trousers, even though they'd started to do it. It was almost unheard of in the 1960s and earlier. There's a reason why Uhura was the only one on the Bridge in a skirt in the 1960s; notice how that changed with Tasha Yar in the 1980s? ;)

I love that you used Star Trek as the example here :D

You're totally right but it changed pretty fast. Like in just a decade it was acceptable. And now it's totally commonplace. But guys still can't work "female designated" clothes without a lot of flack. I know some guys that rock kilts and a full blooded American Indian guy who wears something similar. Those are both cultural things and they still get crap for it from other westerners. I'm a total advocate of andro fashion though and I have seen a lot of progress in certain small areas, but the extremes are still "off limits" it seems.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 26, 2012, 12:35:11 AM
Also a lot of the times young FTMs would be mad if you assumed they like masculine things, it seems like it's pretty normal for young FTMs to just like feminine things but still want to transition, not that there is anything wrong with that... Idk. It just happens pretty often.

I definitely don't fit this mold either. For one thing, I was pretty much socialized as both genders looking back on it all. I was allowed to wear "toughskins" (if you don't know what those are you weren't a small child in the 70s haha) pants and plenty of other boy clothing. My mom even let me wear boy underoos at one point. I had a boys haircut. I also had all the boy toys. I had a barbie doll and other dolls here and there but never really played with those. If I did I was out in the yard, in the dirt with them haha. I had a BMX bike, Hot Wheels, Transformers ... I played football and soccer. I liked to get dirty. My parents seemed to understand early on that those things just made me happy and they wanted a happy kid. I was an only child too. So when it came to hanging out with other small kids they all took me as a boy, and treated me as such. No one really even bothered with my name (a total girl name), I was just another kid getting grass stains and mud and hanging out with the other boys. They were a bit confused when adults would refer to me as a girl. Those halcyon days are ones I look back on fondly. I really did have a happy early childhood because gender wasn't really involved. I mean it was in that I was socializing and acting as male, but no one made a big stink about it. When I was forced into any kind of girl activity (my mom signed me up for Brownies/Girl Scouts) I stuck out like a sore thumb. Even other girls wouldn't really associate with me ... even if I was forced into a Brownie uniform lol. So my female socialization is a bit skewed. It was like I watched that all from the outside ... like how girls interact with one another and that sort of thing. I picked up enough of the "game" to be able to "pass" in their circles but most still sensed something odd about me. There's still things about groups of women or certain particulars women do that I don't understand to this day. I can act the part, but it really is acting. 
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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aleon515

I grew up in the, well a long time ago. I didn't wear boy clothes exactly. But there are many pictures of me in pants and cowboy outfits complete with chaps and guns. Some of my pictures look pretty boyish. My parents bought me (and my sister) blocks, trucks, etc. etc. I was, however, made to wear dresses and so on, and it was normal for girls to wear dresses to school. However, I was able to get thoroughly dirty and liked to be. In the summer I lived a pretty boyish life and during school I was more made to be like a little girl. I think some of that idea has broken down.

I have never seen a picture of my mom as a child wearing a dress, leading me to believe it was never done. She didn't really wear slacks til I was older.




--Jay J

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FTMDiaries

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 26, 2012, 10:42:56 PM
I love that you used Star Trek as the example here :D

Yeah, I'm a hopeless Trekkie. Trekker. Whatever. ;)

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 26, 2012, 10:42:56 PM
It was like I watched that all from the outside ... like how girls interact with one another and that sort of thing. I picked up enough of the "game" to be able to "pass" in their circles but most still sensed something odd about me. There's still things about groups of women or certain particulars women do that I don't understand to this day. I can act the part, but it really is acting.

Seriously... are you me? Or at the very least, are you my evil mirror-universe twin (complete with goatee and sparkly sash?) ;)





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Devlyn

Fun fact from the Forum Stats at the bottom of the Susan's Place main page: Male to Female Ratio:1:76.9
You guys are seriously outnumbered! Hugs, Devlyn
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Nero

The guy's forum has grown and changed within the last couple years. When I first joined, our guy population was older as a whole. Probably about the same average age as the mtf side. A lot more people are coming out than even a few years ago. The more press we get, the younger people come out.

However, I think a big part of the ftms seeming younger thing is that more mtfs tend to marry and have kids. Seems like most with a family end up transitioning later. So even though they're realizing it younger and younger as well, many are already saddled with families in their twenties and desperately trying to make it work before resorting to transition. It's a lot easier to make the decision to transition when it's just you to worry about.

Mtfs (gynosexual ones anyway) seem to rush into husband and fatherhood while ftms seem to shy away from traditional female roles. More mtfs desperately try to prove their manhood while more ftms run from traditional womanhood. Makes sense more ftms have the time to 'find themselves'.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 27, 2012, 06:03:17 AM
Fun fact from the Forum Stats at the bottom of the Susan's Place main page: Male to Female Ratio:1:76.9
You guys are seriously outnumbered! Hugs, Devlyn

I never thought to look at that stats! Thanks!

Quote from: Forum Admin on November 27, 2012, 11:59:12 AM
The guy's forum has grown and changed within the last couple years. When I first joined, our guy population was older as a whole. Probably about the same average age as the mtf side. A lot more people are coming out than even a few years ago. The more press we get, the younger people come out.

However, I think a big part of the ftms seeming younger thing is that more mtfs tend to marry and have kids. Seems like most with a family end up transitioning later. So even though they're realizing it younger and younger as well, many are already saddled with families in their twenties and desperately trying to make it work before resorting to transition. It's a lot easier to make the decision to transition when it's just you to worry about.

Mtfs (gynosexual ones anyway) seem to rush into husband and fatherhood while ftms seem to shy away from traditional female roles. More mtfs desperately try to prove their manhood while more ftms run from traditional womanhood. Makes sense more ftms have the time to 'find themselves'.

That makes total sense actually. Good point!
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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insideontheoutside

Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 27, 2012, 05:43:48 AM
Yeah, I'm a hopeless Trekkie. Trekker. Whatever. ;)

Seriously... are you me? Or at the very least, are you my evil mirror-universe twin (complete with goatee and sparkly sash?) ;)

LOL I probably could be considered the mirror twin!
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Simon

Being in the online trans community off and on for the last 12 years or so I've noticed a trend amongst transmen. Usually you'll see a guy pre-T shortly right before he starts hormones. You'll see documentation of his transition on hormones for the first year or so. Then chest surgery and healing documentation. Most fade into the cis gendered world shortly afterwards and there will be a declaration from the guy stating he is going stealth, thanks for the support, and poof he leaves the community except for a few close knit friends he has made during his transition. It is a far less ratio of men that continue to document after that stage.

Most guys start transition in early to mid 20's medically speaking. I think going stealth and fading into the woodwork makes it appear as though most transguys are younger but it's just that the younger guys are more vocal. Stealth is easy and I myself was privileged to be so due to my lower end bio guy T count.

Now at 31 I have to do a legit medical transition that starts next month but I've promised myself that I won't fade into the woodwork once everything gets where I want it. My gf finishes college in 2014 and we plan on moving to a larger city (possibly Washington DC). I don't care about the cis world anymore and don't care if I am ever a part of it. I want to make a lot of trans friends and help out the Community. That doesn't mean I'll be shouting "I'm a ->-bleeped-<-" from the rooftops but it means I won't shut out the Community again due to fear or indifference.   
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unknown

Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 06:32:12 PM
Being in the online trans community off and on for the last 12 years or so I've noticed a trend amongst transmen. Usually you'll see a guy pre-T shortly right before he starts hormones. You'll see documentation of his transition on hormones for the first year or so. Then chest surgery and healing documentation. Most fade into the cis gendered world shortly afterwards and there will be a declaration from the guy stating he is going stealth, thanks for the support, and poof he leaves the community except for a few close knit friends he has made during his transition. It is a far less ratio of men that continue to document after that stage.

Most guys start transition in early to mid 20's medically speaking. I think going stealth and fading into the woodwork makes it appear as though most transguys are younger but it's just that the younger guys are more vocal. Stealth is easy and I myself was privileged to be so due to my lower end bio guy T count.

Now at 31 I have to do a legit medical transition that starts next month but I've promised myself that I won't fade into the woodwork once everything gets where I want it. My gf finishes college in 2014 and we plan on moving to a larger city (possibly Washington DC). I don't care about the cis world anymore and don't care if I am ever a part of it. I want to make a lot of trans friends and help out the Community. That doesn't mean I'll be shouting "I'm a ->-bleeped-<-" from the rooftops but it means I won't shut out the Community again due to fear or indifference.   

Know how you feel. I doubt I ever can be with hetro cis people. It just seems wrong. I'm not sure why. All my friendships with them kinda never worked for a long time. They where so ignorant and never really seemed to like me as me.


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peky

I do not think it is really due to a genraational skewness but rather I think that the older MTF, the baby-boomers, are a voiciferous buch (me included :laugh:), who dominate the MTF forum.

It would ben revealing if we could do some statistics on the number of young (post 1961) versus old MTF who at least post once a day
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Simon

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on November 27, 2012, 06:58:42 PM
Know how you feel. I doubt I ever can be with hetro cis people. It just seems wrong. I'm not sure why. All my friendships with them kinda never worked for a long time. They where so ignorant and never really seemed to like me as me.

It's not that I couldn't because I have. Most people who know me don't know that I am trans. They think I sound/look a bit younger than I should because of my illness. I mean there aren't many people who are going to argue with a guy with a brain tumor if he's a boy or girl, lol. Those same people have made insensitive jokes about LGBT people on tv or said in front of me that Chaz is going to Hell...just stupid things that they wouldn't say if they knew about me.

I just want to help out younger people 18 or older who kinda need a "trans big brother". Just for advice, resources, transportation to appointments, etc. I will be in the position in a few years where financially it won't be a burden to help out. We are a tiny minority and really I think it is everyone's responsibility to help out someone who comes after them. If we all did that then this whole process of transition would be so much easier for everyone.

Just my thoughts...
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