If it looks/walks/swims/quacks like a duck...

[Silvermist]

...then probe the medical history or run blood tests before calling it a duck?

I'm sure that we've all encountered this, either directed at ourselves or at others, but there seems to be no shortage of people out there who won't accept the gender identities presented by trans people (transsexuals in particular). They consider us to be no different than cross-dressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, and drag performers (to whom I refer with all due respect), no matter how hard we work at our transitions to be passable. They might say things like, "once a man, always a man."

Ironically, most of these people are the ones who do the most gay-bashing and who like to tease or smear non-gender-conforming cis people by calling them gay (or some homophobic slur). Also, men who are not considered "manly" enough are often insulted by being labeled as female. They want to have it both ways, that gender is a matter of performance, but only reserved for those with the "right" genitalia. What bothers me is that I don't see people calling them on this. Although it might not help, there's more to gain than to lose if they are challenged to provide coherent and consistent definitions for what they think that "men" and "women" are supposed to be.

It's not just ignorant and thoughtless people (if they're not outright bigots) who do this. I have seen educated and rational-minded people (who pride themselves as such) fight tooth and nail to insist that a trans woman is not a "real" woman (or that a trans man is not a "real" man) because the chromosomes or the shape of certain bones (i.e., things that can't be seen without without medical testing) are not the same as what GGs have. And they persist their arguments even when presented with evidence showing a neurological basis for ->-bleeped-<- or examples of intersex conditions.

There's so much transphobia and cisgenderism/cissexism in the world that people can't or won't recognize unless a hate crime is involved, and it always upsets me just as much as the hate crimes do. The former enables the latter, in my opinion.

[Keira]

...then probe the medical history or run blood tests before calling it a duck?

I'm sure that we've all encountered this, either directed at ourselves or at others, but there seems to be no shortage of people out there who won't accept the gender identities presented by trans people (transsexuals in particular). They consider us to be no different than cross-dressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, and drag performers (to whom I refer with all due respect), no matter how hard we work at our transitions to be passable. They might say things like, "once a man, always a man."

Ironically, most of these people are the ones who do the most gay-bashing and who like to tease or smear non-gender-conforming cis people by calling them gay (or some homophobic slur). Also, men who are not considered "manly" enough are often insulted by being labeled as female. They want to have it both ways, that gender is a matter of performance, but only reserved for those with the "right" genitalia. What bothers me is that I don't see people calling them on this. Although it might not help, there's more to gain than to lose if they are challenged to provide coherent and consistent definitions for what they think that "men" and "women" are supposed to be.

It's not just ignorant and thoughtless people (if they're not outright bigots) who do this. I have seen educated and rational-minded people (who pride themselves as such) fight tooth and nail to insist that a trans woman is not a "real" woman (or that a trans man is not a "real" man) because the chromosomes or the shape of certain bones (i.e., things that can't be seen without without medical testing) are not the same as what GGs have. And they persist their arguments even when presented with evidence showing a neurological basis for ->-bleeped-<- or examples of intersex conditions.

There's so much transphobia and cisgenderism/cissexism in the world that people can't or won't recognize unless a hate crime is involved, and it always upsets me just as much as the hate crimes do. The former enables the latter, in my opinion.

Personally I don't think trans people are strictly the gender they identify as. Nor are they the gender that they were "assigned at birth".

I think social roles are just a practical way of interacting with other people/the world. Albeit, half of social roles is most definitely based upon brain gender or genetic gender (since gender is determined by genetics; who is to say that mtfs are not genetic girls).

Anyways, my main point is that I think we as trans people should refuse to be stuck in either of these two boxes. Society has already done enough harm to gender variant people (effeminate guys and masculine girls), why should we try to appease the "gods of society".

In the end when we claim we are our true internal gender and then try to pass ourselves off as being completely of the opposite sex; were just deceiving ourselves. And when society uses the two gender boxes, it's just deceiving itself.

I don't want to abolish gender (like some types of feminists), I just feel that we shouldn't pretend to be someone we are not just so we can fit into a rigid "two box" system.

Where would that put me as a genderqueer mtf female? Or any other genderqueer person who is still transsexual?

I would argue that it isn't homophobia and transphobia that are the biggest problems (albeit they are big problems). It's in fact the gender roles that are constructed and rigidly held up by society as golden idols. This is where trans stereotypes come from. An ftm can only do this this and that; conversely an mtf can only be like this this and that.

I think it's about time some of the people  looked at their own society and did an epic face palm.

[Padma]

"once a man, always a man." - to which I always reply "Oh, I was never a man - I just sort of looked like one ."

[Kevin Peña]

"once a man, always a man." - to which I always reply "Oh, I was never a man - I just sort of looked like one ."

I love that!

Anywho, I never really cared about stereotypes. People can be very ignorant. This situation can be compared to pedestrians. If you become an avid bike rider, you'll see just how annoying pedestrians are. In short, it's hard for a lot of people to sympathize with us unless they can see things from our point of view. Those that are very closed-minded can just go suck on a leaf. 

[Mosaic dude]

I would argue that it isn't homophobia and transphobia that are the biggest problems (albeit they are big problems). It's in fact the gender roles that are constructed and rigidly held up by society as golden idols. This is where trans stereotypes come from. An ftm can only do this this and that; conversely an mtf can only be like this this and that.[ /quote]

Amen to that.  I must say I've never seen the point of the gender binary.  I can remember being a fairly small child and thinking it was a steaming pile of stupid.  It puzzles me a lot, this insistence by so many people that there must be two boxes and only two boxes.  I wonder why they would cling to a system that makes them act in strictly prescribed ways, and doesn't let them choose which box they're in.

[suzifrommd]

I wonder why they would cling to a system that makes them act in strictly prescribed ways, and doesn't let them choose which box they're in.

Is it possible that the gender binary is "wired" into people's brains the way our (transgender) identities are wired in ours? I.e. are people wired to expect females to act in a certain way and males to act in others?

[insideontheoutside]

I've run into plenty of people over the years who thought I was absolutely crazy, or mentally damaged, and they would tell me that I needed to just accept my "role" in society and my body. There was an utter and complete lack of understanding combined with the attitude that they were right and I was wrong (and also crazy because of it). Most of this I got from so-called professionals (therapists/psychologists) in very formative years of my life. It left me thinking I really did have a metal problem and led me down a horrendous path of trying to just tune out reality. I was just sick of hearing, "You're female, you need to start acting like one and accept your role in society." They were the ones that wouldn't accept the truth. 

I read an article today about Christine Jorgensen who the first widely know (MtF) transsexual who received SRS. What totally struck me about the article was how accepted she was. When she returned after SRS people respected her, even offered her parts in movies, etc. People would tell her, "you have guts to live your life the way you want." All I could think to myself was, "wow look how far we've come" (and yes, that's sarcasm). In an era that most of us think was super conservative, here was a transsexual "coming out" and in the public eye and people were fine with it. Now I'm sure it wasn't everyone who was fine with it, but just the fact that she received good publicity when today we get tabloid rags with pics of Chaz Bono and degrading headlines, just makes me sad. Like one step forward, multiple steps back. But then again we're also living in an age where politicians want to take away women's rights, people are still saying gays are going to hell, etc. etc.

It's society ... and certain segments of society that keep hitting the "reset" button. And this is the part of society that refuses to acknowledge the gray areas and the wide range of differences in people. They're the ones ignoring and refusing to accept the truth.

[Beverly]

"once a man, always a man." - to which I always reply "Oh, I was never a man - I just sort of looked like one ."

+1000

[Celery Stalk]

Personally I don't think trans people are strictly the gender they identify as. Nor are they the gender that they were "assigned at birth".

I think social roles are just a practical way of interacting with other people/the world. Albeit, half of social roles is most definitely based upon brain gender or genetic gender (since gender is determined by genetics; who is to say that mtfs are not genetic girls).

Anyways, my main point is that I think we as trans people should refuse to be stuck in either of these two boxes. Society has already done enough harm to gender variant people (effeminate guys and masculine girls), why should we try to appease the "gods of society".

In the end when we claim we are our true internal gender and then try to pass ourselves off as being completely of the opposite sex; were just deceiving ourselves. And when society uses the two gender boxes, it's just deceiving itself.

I don't want to abolish gender (like some types of feminists), I just feel that we shouldn't pretend to be someone we are not just so we can fit into a rigid "two box" system.

Where would that put me as a genderqueer mtf female? Or any other genderqueer person who is still transsexual?

I would argue that it isn't homophobia and transphobia that are the biggest problems (albeit they are big problems). It's in fact the gender roles that are constructed and rigidly held up by society as golden idols. This is where trans stereotypes come from. An ftm can only do this this and that; conversely an mtf can only be like this this and that.

I think it's about time some of the people  looked at their own society and did an epic face palm.

I think this is a little harsh. I can understand the philosophical principle behind your view, even agree with it to a point, but more problematic than the rigid belief in a gender binary that gender variant people face, is a person's presumption to know what is best for other people. No matter what position they take.

How can anyone say that another is deceiving themselves or "pretending" to be something they're not. Cis culture is guilty of a toxic paternalism, the trans community needs to be better than that.