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Masculine backlash?

Started by Simon, December 03, 2012, 10:47:42 PM

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Simon

I think in the past year or two there has been a backlash against transguys who exhibit stereotypical male behavior. Really they don't have to exhibit the behavior but just looking a certain way.

I think it was propelled with the "trans enough" trend that went around. I never understood why there was such a movement anyways. In well over a decade of transition I have never come across transguys putting down each other for "feminine" behavior or for looking a certain way. If it stemmed from random comments on youtube (only place I can think of it would have started) then in my humble opinion it is malarkey.

I dunno, sometimes I feel like I myself have to tone it down a bit. I'm not a little or a "pretty" guy and I feel like if I expressed opinions or emotions that are "macho" then I would be labeled as someone who was against guys who aren't as masculine. Believe it or not there are more guys who stride the line between femininity and masculinity than transmen who are more on the masculine side.

Call me crazy (won't be the first time) but I feel like the "trans enough" movement may have hurt our community more than anything else. It drew a line in the sand between us when I never understood the issue in the first place (never talked to anyone else who has either).

Maybe it came from a manifestation of guys pushing their insecurities off on one another.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
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KamTheMan

"trans enough" is about NOT needing to fit into any stereotypes in order to be trans*


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Elijah3291

I think it is three things

1) what you said, insecurity.  Trying to beat each other in masculinity.  "I'm more trans then you" means "I deserve transition more, I deserve for it to be easier for me to transition."

2) When you work hard to pass and you are having trouble, and you come across a trans guy who is ok displaying his chest, or he loves tons of girly things and corsets and stuff.  it just hits a nerve.  Here you are trying your hardest to pass and they are wearing girls clothes because they want to.
It makes you not take them seriously.  It makes you think why are they trans.  Note, this is not to be confused with transmen drag queens, thats different.  Thats for temporary fun.

3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.
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aleon515

I think it IS needed. I think it is totally ok to identify however you want because it is who you actually are. I know it may not be convenient for everybody.

--Jay (J)
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Simon

I really don't think you guys are understanding what I am saying.

I am talking about there isn't even a need for a "trans enough" movement and that I believe it causes undue tension within the community. As much as it builds those up who question themselves (for whatever reason) it makes some feel like exuding what may be deemed as over masculine behaviors almost insecure about who they are as well.

I see it as a dividing line when there need not be one. I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online.

I have probably used the term in the past myself to make someone feel better about who they are but in all actuality I don't see the need for the movement.

There is already a "us vs. them" mentality many times when it comes to cis and trans people. There need not be any division amongst ourselves and I think the trans enough movement divides us (even if it is unintentionally doing so). 
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Seb

I agree with you, Simon. 100% Agree with you, mate. As the "macho man" type I feel your pain quite a bit. More feminine trans* boys don't really get much crap for it as far as I've seen. Plus, I don't agree with a lot of what women call "feminism" but is actually misandry (not actual feminism, I know we need that) so I get a lot of "oh, you're just a macho man who hates women" deal and it pisses me off. I don't hate women, but I want us to be equals. A lot of trans* guys get the "but you're supposed to be on OUR side!" mentality and they completely miss my point. Siiigh.
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aleon515

Yeah but there are guys who aren't stereotypically male or do somethings that might be considered less than male, and some of these guys feel insecure. I have heard of several of these types of guys comforted by the trans enough thing. You see threads here of people (both ftm and mtf) upset re: not fitting into the known stereotypes.

Do you have to bind, take T, have top surgery, etc. etc. to be a transguy. You don't.

--Jay
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Simon

Quote from: aleon515 on December 04, 2012, 12:31:19 AMDo you have to bind, take T, have top surgery, etc. etc. to be a transguy. You don't.

No, of course you don't.

That isn't the issue. The issue is the division it creates. Almost like this is an "anti bullying" campaign. At least that is how I viewed it because anytime the "trans enough" movement rears it's head it's usually accompanied by guys saying they've experienced other transguys making them feel less than (for not packing, not lifting, not taking T, etc). I have never seen a transman bully another transman. I think this movement is just a way for people with insecurities to make themselves feel better.

Then there are those of us just sitting here scratching our heads wondering if it is ok to be stereotypically masculine because it is almost as though that is now frowned upon by a greater population of guys...because of the division the movement has unintentionally created.
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Seb

I agree with Simon once again. I think it's a combination of insecurity and jealousy, but truth is we all feel that way at some point. It shouldn't divide us even though it does.
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unknown

I know what you mean. I actually feel less trans because of the movement  :( . I feel like because I make my voice lower and all the other things I do to cope with dysphoria I'm less trans and I am just following stereo types (and I cross dress sometimes). The only people I have gotten crap from cross dressing was cis people, so I don't really see the point.


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Simon

I'm glad some of you guys are in the same boat with me on this topic. I really wish the "trans enough" movement would have been inclusive to everyone.

I think a "Just Be You" movement would have been more productive and inclusive.
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AscendantDevon

Thankfully, this community Susans seems to have a little less of that sort of thing than others. : / Honestly that sort of activity can really be a kick in the teeth if you already feel ostracised, only to be told that you don't deserve to transition and your struggles are irrelevant. I've been told I'm not *feminine/masculine/whatever* enough in other places to have people who are going through similar problems to put me on the rails for no reason. Transitioning isn't some sort of 'whos dysphoria is worse' dick size contest, that sort of attitude is just sick, sadly, I feel like I see it a lot. 

Guh it makes me so mad. Why can't people just be supportive? Don't they realize it makes them just as bad as the people who treat THEM unfairly?
Check out my art. : P

http://devonascended.deviantart.com/#
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insideontheoutside

I've seen a noteable amount of the "not trans enough" thing or just people straight up saying non-conforming guys don't have a right to the same treatments as those guys who are transitioning to "exclusivly" male. I got into it in a thread not too long ago here in regards to that.

To me, it's fine to have your own opinions and of course to live your life how you want to, but when you start dictating what other people can and can't do, that's stepping over the line. And I think it's directly related to people's own insecurity. And I can understand that .... if all you really want is to "pass" and you don't you want to get on T asap, you are super critical of every little aspect of yourself, and you can't understand how some guys can be ok with their chest or looking femme or whatever. But seriously, welcome to the wider world. Everyone is different and there's a ton of variety in the gender spectrum.

What's confusing to me is that there's plenty of "femanine" traits slipping into even the "cis" world. Men are into hair care products, fashion, even stuff like make up, laser hair removal etc etc. It's not just trans guys who are feeling more confident to embrace things like this. I'm not even talking about hobbies or anything I'm strictly talking looks here. But there's such a wide variety of guys out there. There's MAAB guys who hate being hairy, so they get waxed or laser hair removal but if a trans guy says he doesn't want to be hairy he gets dog piled by a bunch of other trans guys that say something like, "you can't pick and choose what you get on T! You can't be a real male if you can't handle hair blah blah blah." I don't understand how wanting to look a certain way, even if it's andro or femme, is really any different than desiring to look like an "average male" or a "macho" guy.

So in short I think the "not trans enough" is detrimental and leads to even worse behavior and inacceptance.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Simon

Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 04, 2012, 01:37:04 AM
Honestly that sort of activity can really be a kick in the teeth if you already feel ostracised, only to be told that you don't deserve to transition and your struggles are irrelevant. I've been told I'm not *feminine/masculine/whatever* enough in other places to have people who are going through similar problems to put me on the rails for no reason.

Wow, I'm sorry you've had other trans people come at you like that. I've never experienced or even seen that happening (I would step in if I did).

I don't understand how a trans person could have a go at another trans person. We've all been in the same predicament. We've all felt dysphoria and that feeling of not belonging.

I've dealt with transguys acting as if my struggles aren't as valid as theirs because I naturally produce T (that is ending in 10 days with my hysto) but nobody has been blatantly rude.  Generally they're just dismissive.
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Kreuzfidel

There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now.  I've left several Facebook groups because of it.  I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups.  I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.
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Simon

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now.  I've left several Facebook groups because of it.  I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups.  I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.

I fully agree with you. Being a transguy online who isn't "pretty, emotional, or feminine" actually puts us as the minority. So far this is the only place I associate with other trans people. I'm going to be making videos for myself as my transition goes along and I have thought about doing the YouTube thing eventually but that remains to be seen.

It's basically that I don't want to step on any toes with my opinions. I fully respect other guys...no matter if they are gay, feminine, cross dressing, or whatever else...but that is not me. I would like to see more masculine guys represented but I think it is frowned upon and discouraged.
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unknown

Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 03:24:21 AM
It's basically that I don't want to step on any toes with my opinions. I fully respect other guys...no matter if they are gay, feminine, cross dressing, or whatever else...but that is not me. I would like to see more masculine guys represented but I think it is frowned upon and discouraged.

What does all of that even make me? The anti-masculine propaganda pretty much means I'm too masculine, but the masculine trans guys would say I'm too feminine  :( Also no reason to do what the anti-masculine propaganda does just the other way around  ;).


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Simon

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 04, 2012, 03:31:12 AM
What does all of that even make me? The anti-masculine propaganda pretty much means I'm too masculine, but the masculine trans guys would say I'm too feminine  :( Also no reason to do what the anti-masculine propaganda does just the other way around  ;).

That is what I'm saying. There shouldn't be any division and especially not one created by the trans community as a "movement".

My gf was just talking to me about this and the funny thing is to the cis gendered world I'm really not all that masculine. I'm a straight guy who is...well...a nerd. I like computers, body modifications, weight lifting (the most stereotypical masculine thing I like), Sci Fi, comic books, superheros, dinosaurs, horror films (especially zombies), and medieval stuff. I'm not into cars, guns, motorcycles, or things of that nature that the cis gendered world sees as masculine traits. Yet amongst the online FTM community I am rather masculine.

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FTMDiaries

Y'know, this is one of the things I love about being an Aspie: I don't have to give two hoots about whether other people think I'm 'trans enough' or 'masculine enough' or even 'feminine enough'. I'm glad that Susan's is a non-judgemental place where we can be ourselves, without all that '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' nonsense.

I like & dislike similar stuff to Simon, but I do that because I'm me.

I'm just me. And guess what? I'm 'me enough' for me.  :)





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spacerace

In my experience the "not trans enough" arguments are actually made towards people who are more in the middle of the gender spectrum.  Even to the point of saying people who don't completely see themselves as male should not get access to hormones.

So, this thread is  a bit eye-opening, because it seems like divisions are causing discomfort across the board, whereas before I never would have imagined that people who identity as completely masculine were feeling not trans enough. The arguments I have seen made, on this board even,  are more along the lines of "You are just playing" unless you desire to fold yourself into the male side of the binary.

Shows what I know, and it really is indicative of the damage divisions cause us.

I feel not trans enough because I don't really care that I'll never be completely biologically male, because what is the point of dwelling on something you can't change? I'm me, I need to like being me, and transitioning improves the experience of being me.

When the world is against us, we can change things by banding together instead of quibbling over who gets to be what, so I completely agree with most of the posts in this thread. 
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