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What is the heart and soul of the Christmas story?

Started by SarahM777, December 05, 2012, 11:29:50 AM

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SarahM777

Most of us are so familiar with the story but what is the real meaning behind it? What was so special about Jesus birth? Could it be that His birth was the beginning of the fulfilment of a promise? A promise made along time in words,pictures, and imagery.

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Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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SarahM777

A friend asked me to post this  :)


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Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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SarahM777

Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Incarnadine

Quote from: SarahM777 on December 05, 2012, 04:29:57 PM
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I used to own the 2-cd set he put out with this song on it.  The set was comprised of songs all about the life of Jesus Christ; I think it was called "The Life".  I think.  Don't quote me on that. 
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Incarnadine

The heart and soul of the Christmas story is the entire sacrifice of Jesus Christ, beginning with the incarnation we celebrate on or about Dec. 25th.  He was born to die for the salvation of mankind.

Granted, there are other applications we could draw: self-sacrifice, giving, being kind, sharing, singing Kum-ba-yah, etc., but the primary focus of the announcements of the birth of Christ in Matthew and Luke was that Jesus would be the sacrifice that would be the salvation of His people, that the promise of the Messiah was finally fulfilled.

Simeon (in Luke 2) recognized the focus of Jesus' birth being that salvation was come unto both the Jews and the Gentiles.  Perhaps the best part about Christmas is that Jesus didn't stay in the manger, just as He didn't stay in the tomb!
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Sarah Louise

:)  I am eternally grateful that he didn't stay in the grave
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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SarahM777

Quote from: Incarnadine on December 05, 2012, 04:38:16 PM
I used to own the 2-cd set he put out with this song on it.  The set was comprised of songs all about the life of Jesus Christ; I think it was called "The Life".  I think.  Don't quote me on that.

The song was put out on three CD's. The first was on the album"The Final Word",the second was on
the album "The Promise:A Celebration of Christ's Birth" the third was the album "The Life" which contained the three albums "The Final Word","Scandalon" and "Known By The Scars"  ;)
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
  •  

SarahM777

Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
  •  

SarahM777

A promise to an older couple barren and childless,that they would have a son. A son who would go before the Lord,who would someday point Jesus out and proclaim "Behold the lamb of God who comes to take away the sin of the world" A son who in Zechariah's words

Luke 1

67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
    because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
69 He has raised up a horn[c] of salvation for us
    in the house of his servant David
70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
71 salvation from our enemies
    and from the hand of all who hate us—
72 to show mercy to our ancestors
    and to remember his holy covenant,
73     the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
    and to enable us to serve him without fear
75     in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
    for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
    through the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God
,
    by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79 to shine on those living in darkness
    and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace."


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Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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spacial

I find myself rather distant from most Christians these days. I've never identified with the post 19th century American influence. But that's OK.

For me, the story of Christmas begins with two, very remarkable women, each finding themselves, somewhat miraculously, with child.

Like so much of the Gospels, I never understood any of it, nor really believed any of it, until I read it. No songs, no passionate preaching, no judgements, just tow, very remarkable women, both finding themsleves with child.
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SarahM777

If we are truly seeking He will touch us through different styles yet through the same message. Some He touches through song (I am one I love music and I see through the music so to speak),others through preaching,some He has to slap upside the head to get them to pay attention IE Saul who became Paul.

Perhaps this one will speak to you also as this song talks about two remarkable women and the children they are to give birth to.

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Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
  •  

SarahM777

Did Mary really understand what was yet to come? Did she even have any idea what it would cost her?


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Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Del

I reckon that it really takes faith to please the Lord and a willingness to lay down your life.
She pretty much received a death sentence with the news considering the law, cutoms and her state of being unwed.
The Lord will try people to see if they esteem him above everything.
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spacial

Quote from: SarahM777 on December 07, 2012, 02:21:45 PM
Did Mary really understand what was yet to come? Did she even have any idea what it would cost her?

The story says she did. But I get the impression that she would have submitted herself to the will of God in any case.

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Del

According to the word of God Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.
Those who have had the baptism of the Holy Ghost have the Spirit within them. Jesus said that his Father was in him and he in his Father.
When told his mother and brethren were asking for him he said that those who know the will of God and do it are his mother and sister and brother.
Like Mary, through a similitude we as Christians have Jesus within us and must bring him into this darkened world.
Like Mary, we know that the promise of a Messiah that would save man of his sins must be revealed, or birthed through us and it may cost us everything to bring him into this world.
Mary said that the Lord had regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. As Christians we know that the word of God says the common people heard him gladly and that he preached to and delivered and healed the poor. It is also written the Lord said blessed are the poor in spirit.
Through the birth of Jesus we can see that being a Christian is a great honor of the which we cannot boast nor take lightly. We can see that as his bride we are blessed and found favor with God over women and men of the world. It is written that he that finds a wife findeth a good thing and favor of the Lord. Through Jesus we as his wife are that good thing and have favor through him. (Not of ourselves)
Mary who would carry the child of promise was carrying the one spoken about by the prophets from the beginning. The one so highly esteemed of God that he would destroy nations, change times and alter anything that would stand in the way or corrupt the bloodline of his birth. She would carry the one that would deliver her when she put off the tabernacle.
This is an awesome topic as it can show us that being a Christian isn't just some goody-goody name we can call ourselves while we refuse to follow his word but is an undeserved honor that was revealed through parables and similitudes from the beginning of time.
If we carry him and bring him unto the lost he will guide us and deliver us at the appointed time. Therefore we should be willing to forsake everything for him and as Mary was probably looked upon as a whore by those who knew she conceived out of marriage we should be willing to face ridicule from those who cannot see that which is conceived in us of the unseen Lord.
There are just so many types and shadows here. So many things to both fear and feel blessed. So many things that should cause us to praise his holy name every day.
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Cindy

A question from my ignorance and not in anyway meant to demean any beliefs.

The Christian Churches or Faiths hold a similar  belief on the Birth and Death of Jesus. Although there are obvious differences in the belief systems between the Faiths. I have to admit I do not understand them and it is one reason I have problems with religion. Why do Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox religions differ on the same set of writings in the gospels etc? I would have thought that the common concept in the Holy Literature between these faiths is the birth and death of the Saviour. We celebrate the birth at Christmas time, if the date is accurate or not is totally immaterial, it is a celebration of the birth of the Saviour. Easter is the same, whether the dates are accurate or not is equally irrelevant it is a celebration (?) of the sacrifice given by Jesus.

Why does Judaism reject (if that is correct) the concept of Jesus as the Saviour? My understanding is that Judaism is a Faith that is still awaiting the birth of the Saviour. Why is this so? Particularly as Jesus appears as a very strong willed and dominant teacher in the society of his time, which was a Jewish society.

Is the heart and soul of Christmas a concept or a factual belief that requires 'Faith' to accept?

As people know I'm very easy in discussing such matters and none of my posts are in anyway anti-belief or anti-religion. But I do have a genuine interest in how we make these decisions.

Cindy

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Del

Quote from: Cindy James on December 08, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
A question from my ignorance and not in anyway meant to demean any beliefs.

The Christian Churches or Faiths hold a similar  belief on the Birth and Death of Jesus. Although there are obvious differences in the belief systems between the Faiths. I have to admit I do not understand them and it is one reason I have problems with religion. Why do Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox religions differ on the same set of writings in the gospels etc? I would have thought that the common concept in the Holy Literature between these faiths is the birth and death of the Saviour. We celebrate the birth at Christmas time, if the date is accurate or not is totally immaterial, it is a celebration of the birth of the Saviour. Easter is the same, whether the dates are accurate or not is equally irrelevant it is a celebration (?) of the sacrifice given by Jesus.

The birth, death and ressurrection of Jesus is celebrated in most churches. Sadly, in most churches these are the only parts not tainted by man's teaching and division. Jesus said a kingdom divided would come to nothing and a house divided would fall. These divisions are brought about when men use their own mind rather than the Spirit of God to lead their lives and the things they teach. As written, lean not unto thine own understanding and as Paul said in 1 Corinthians the word of God is spiritually discerned.
These divisions have caused confusion among Christians and the word says God is not the author of confusion. It is written the warfare of the enemy is with confused violence. The enemy of our soul and God is Satan. It is the Spirit of God that can give eyes to see and ears to hear and give faith unto those willing to believe.

Why does Judaism reject (if that is correct) the concept of Jesus as the Saviour? My understanding is that Judaism is a Faith that is still awaiting the birth of the Saviour. Why is this so? Particularly as Jesus appears as a very strong willed and dominant teacher in the society of his time, which was a Jewish society.

The Jews are still awaiting a Messiah to save them while Christians see through the Spirit the Messiah has come as a Lamb of sacrifice.
The word of God says that God is just and holy in all his works. It says he has caused a partial blindness unto the Jews that he might have mercy on us Gentles. Not that we could boast but rather be thankful for his grace. In the end those Jews who believe shall be saved. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come.
The word of God says Jesus had the fullness of the Godhead and the fullness of the Spirit. The Spirit of God being seven Spirits, or parts.
1- Romans 1:1-4 declared to be the Son of God by the Spirit of holiness - The Holy Ghost reveals who Jesus is and what he says unto the churches and saints.
2- Romans 8:2 the Spirit of Life - The Spirit of God renews our spirit and gives us life. This changing of the law brings us from the old law unto a law in which we have grace through Jesus.
3- Romans 8:15 Spirit of Adoption - This is the Spirit which shows us that we as Gentiles have been adopted into the kingdom of Christ making God our Father.
4- Galations 6:1 Spirit of Meekness - This is the part of the Spirit which brings forth a meek and quiet spirit in those who are baptized in the Holy Ghost. It is a change that is both noticeable and requires no struggle to be meek regardless of circumstances.
5- 2 Corinthians 4:8-13 - This is the Spirit that allows us to have faith regardless of what comes at us. When everything goes wrong and we lose everything and it seems as though the whole world is against us this Spirit reassures us we are saved. It gives a faith that endures anything such as Abraham knowing God could raise Isaac from the dead and countless scriptures whereby men of God stood against stronger enemies and such. The faith to fight impossible battles and believe when everything speaks contrary.
6- Ephesians 1:17 - Spirit ofWisdom and Revelation - That Spirit which rightly divides the word of truth and reveals who Jesus is from the laws and prophets. That which reveals things to come. things the spirit of man and mind of man cannot understand and deem foolish.
7- 1 Peter 4:12-14 - Spirit of Glory and of God - That Spirit which brings us through great trials and tribulations allowing the glory of God to be seen on us. That spirit which manifests the Lord being with us in the worst of times.
These Spirits gave Jesus all power in the days of his flesh so to speak and the boldness to stand against everything. They gave him the power to hold his peace when men spit in his face, pulled his beard out, scourged and crucified him. He had the power and if he had lost his temper in his darkest hour he could have spoken this whole world out of existance and we all would have been damned. Thank God he endured as an example unto us as the importance of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Is the heart and soul of Christmas a concept or a factual belief that requires 'Faith' to accept?

It is factual as it is Jewish history. The Jews in their history have the entire lineage going back to Adam regardless of what scientists believe.
These facts all reveal the Messiah that came whom they did not recognize. These facts and history prophesied by the Spirit of God through prophets chosen of God that man could one day dwell with God for ever if he would have faith to believe.

As people know I'm very easy in discussing such matters and none of my posts are in anyway anti-belief or anti-religion. But I do have a genuine interest in how we make these decisions.

I can't speak for others but I have always felt a sincere interest in your posts and pm's. In no way have I ever been offended kiddo.
I enjoy the question and sadly it is the mind and spirit of man and their desire to be a god that has corrupted Christianity and caused this confusion and these divisions. Sadly these things have stopped people from experiencing some of the power and miracles the Lord has for those who would believe the whole word of God and not just the parts they like.
Your posts are a blessing.

Cindy
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Del

I am sorry if my post is hard to read. I'm not good with computers as is evident.
Christmas is indeed a fact that we must have faith to believe.
May God bless.
del
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Cindy

Del,

Thank you for replying and yes you need Computers for Dummies in your Christmas stocking.


I think we have a common bond in the belief of  discussion in a friendly and open way.

As a scientist with a deep knowledge and understanding of  genetics and genetic mutations I have to raise my eybrows about the concept that anyone can trace their people of any belief to Adam. Sorry just silly and against scientific proof. I have to draw lines in the acceptance of logic and belief. I have, as you know, no problems with belief , but if  a God created this reality she used principles. I do not accept Gods but even if I ever do, I will never accept stupid Gods.

For the record the genetics of human evolution are becoming clear.


I'm lost in your explanation of people of the Jewish Faith. It sounds like we are right you are wrong. I'm not good in that logic.

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spacial

I understand Cindy's point and will say that, like much of the Bible, I accept it in an allegorical sense. I know form personal experience and others I trust totally, that each of us may be infused with something higher and the results can, unsurprisingly, be rather astonishing, to say the least to others.

As for the point about Jews.

I appreciate that many, Jews and Christians have been struggling, especially for the last 400 or so years, to find a theological justification for the Jews rejection of Jesus and the subsequent negative reaction.

The sad reality is, there is none. What has emerged has been little more than a confusing mish mash of compromise and fabrications. The reason is quite simple, the truth is so much more prosaic and the evidence is right there.

The Romans had occupied that part of the ME, occupied by a notoriously independent people, principally traders and merchants, who dominated most of the trading ports on the E Mediterranean. It's difficult for us, today especially, to fully appreciate the importance of the ME in the ancient world. The world was beating a door to India. Because India produced, in huge quantities, spices which flavoured food. The major economic power houses, at that time were China, which had almost direct access, N Africa and Southern Europe, which didn't. They needed to rely upon the peoples of the ME and especially the ports, to transport those spices.

Now much like their essentially direct descendants today, who are known as Palestinians, many among those people simply refused to submit themselves to Roman occupation. Their history records previous occupations, even whole scale abductions. They had come to believe they were special and chosen. Most uniting under a single god, which was remarkable itself, for the time.

The occupiers, Romans, had little compunction is applying some of the most horrible methods of retribution. Crucifixion was, sadly, a rather common place method.

Now, there seems to be evidence, from Josephus and some Roman commentators, of a number of uprising, by Jews, at that time. Like now, most claimed to be action on behalf of or under instruction from god. Like now, most were silly, expreem and brutally suppressed.

The problem with commentators at that time is, like the latter half of the 20th century up to the present, information tends to be produced, as much to create impressions, as record hisorical fact. But since both Josephus and Roman commentators, both make not dissimilar claims, we can accept these to an extent.

From the perspective of the people of Palestine, at that time, Jesus would have been just another rebel leader. But what seems to have made him so different is that he refuted the teachings of resistance, conflict and taught people, if a robber takes your cloak, give him your coat as well. Love your enemies. Do not judge. Do not kill. Do not fight and most crucially, pray in a locked closet, because clergy have no authority.

Now the evidence seems to indicate that the only substantive Jewish leadership remaining, was the local clergy. We know the Romans took great pains, usually, to integrate local religions and religious leaders from most territories, into the Romans empire, in part indicated by their enormous number of personal gods. The resistance among the Jews, in Palestine, was led by the clergy. The majority of the people would have looked to them for their guidance and deliverance. It would be the clergy who would tend to hand over trouble makers and such, to the Romans for punishment. Presumably hoping for realistic opportunities themselves.

The gospels record that the clergy were openly hostile to the teachings of Jesus, even before the Sermon on the Mount. But what Jesus said, in that Sermon would have been enough for those clergy to finally decide he needed to be disposed of. Not only was he creating enormous trouble for the local people, he was also openly telling people to defy the authority of the local clergy.

That is why they would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

Any claims about his divinity would have meant no more to them than that of a child goddess in Nepal means to many in the west. (With deepest respect to Buddhists in Nepal).

It's sad that reality has given way to disputed belief. But we live in an age when seemingly intelligent people are claiming the world was created in 6 days, so things remain quite silly.
 
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