Male privilege?

[unknown]

@ sia

"Women are taken seriously when they report rape"

I REALLY hope that wasn't words put in to my mouth or something.

From what you say it's not sexism towards women. Nor is it female vs males rights, but in reality femininity is bad and masculinity is good.

Other than that I'm not sure what to say to your comment because I know you will not agree with me.

[tekla]

There are a lot of different kinds of privilege, and they are not always so easy to separate out from each other - even if that's your desire.  Nor are they universal.  There are lots of mitigating circumstances that alter the playing field.  In other words they are not automatic.  Not all males get 'male privilege'.  Far from it.  As someone noted they are best enjoyed by 'masculine' men - in other words 'no dorks allowed'.  That short, fat kid who makes noises when he's breathing hard - he ain't never going to know any male privilege.  And in order to climb the corporate ladder being male, even being a masculine male, you still have to exhibit a bunch of other stuff, the 'team player' junk, the 'go along to get along' shuck 'N jive, the expectations that you'll do an entire laundry list of 'the right things'.

And then there is what to everyone posting above me seems to conveniently ignore - which is that privilege has a corresponding cost involved.  The things that are required to qualify become eternally mandatory.  There are expectations that go along with them that have to be constantly met.

[peky]

There are a lot of different kinds of privilege, and they are not always so easy to separate out from each other - even if that's your desire.  Nor are they universal.  There are lots of mitigating circumstances that alter the playing field.  In other words they are not automatic.  Not all males get 'male privilege'.  Far from it.  As someone noted they are best enjoyed by 'masculine' men - in other words 'no dorks allowed'.  That short, fat kid who makes noises when he's breathing hard - he ain't never going to know any male privilege.  And in order to climb the corporate ladder being male, even being a masculine male, you still have to exhibit a bunch of other stuff, the 'team player' junk, the 'go along to get along' shuck 'N jive, the expectations that you'll do an entire laundry list of 'the right things'.

And then there is what to everyone posting above me seems to conveniently ignore - which is that privilege has a corresponding cost involved.  The things that are required to qualify become eternally mandatory.  There are expectations that go along with them that have to be constantly met.

This^^^ is also true for women, we have privilages and we pay the price; and not every woman gets the priviliges. 


At the end regardless of gender, it boils to money, looks, education, expereince, self steam, political saviness, ethnicity, and yes, chance

[SarahM777]

@ SarahM777 I guess that makes sense only thinking about your self, but how do you then explain the rest of the world? Nearly everything I see and hear is based around feminism and I'm not talking about the good one.

I am not sure I am getting the gist of what you are saying,but if you are referring to Western culture trying to impose those ideas and ideals on another culture,perhaps it's because one sees one culture as being somehow better than the other.

[SarahM777]

This^^^ is also true for women, we have privilages and we pay the price; and not every woman gets the priviliges. 


At the end regardless of gender, it boils to money, looks, education, expereince, self steam, political saviness, ethnicity, and yes, chance

There is one other and that is by force.

[insideontheoutside]

If you're a woman, and you're walking down the street or in a parking lot alone at night, you always worry about whether those footsteps that you hear behind you are from a potential rapist.

I don't know if you actually meant to but in your examples you use words like "always" and "all" and the reality is that those are not always 100% truths. They're also broad generalizations. You're implying that women, by nature, think of themselves as victims all the time. I know a ton of women who do not think they're going to be raped every time they walk across a parking lot at night. There's plenty of studies that have been done that illustrate that it's not just a gender issue, it's a victim mindset. It's the way someone carries themselves or are aware of their surroundings. If you're an "easy mark", male or female, you're a target for crime. I think there is also a statistic that a high percentage of women are raped by people they know. I'll give you that there's still an amount of that "she asked for it" mentality going on and that definitely needs to stop.

Speaking of appearance, the cosmetic and fashion industries are universally understood to be geared toward women. Women are "supposed" to wear make-up, but men are not "supposed" to wear make-up. Women are "supposed" to spend a lot of time and money shopping for clothes and shoes and jewelry and cosmetics and getting manicures/pedicures....

Have you stopped to think that a lot of women actually like wearing make up and looking "pretty" and and are into fashion? You think everyone buys the crappy marketing? In this society a women can choose to not wear make up and high heels and dresses, etc. These aren't mandatory requirements. And saying that all women fall prey to this evil, male-centric marketing discredits all the women who dress and look how they're comfortable and in reality do not experience sexism because of it (and consequently ignore that sort of marketing).

The inequality, and thus the male privilege, should be apparent here. How do you think popular entertainment affects popular attitudes about gender? However problematic the concept of the gender binary may be, much more problematic is what gender roles imply about the comparative value, status, and power of each gender. If we're not aware of the male privilege that comes with these gender roles, then gender inequality will perpetuate.

Entertainment is a numbers game. I worked in the entertainment industry and it absolutely caters to males because males are the highest percentage of consumers. I'm certainly not saying this is right, but nothing is going to change until production companies see the statistics. Twilight is mostly watched by women however (and they are the largest percentage of people who bought the books) ... they eat it up. Men in general think it's awful. So it's women that are perpetuating that sort of garbage. I know plenty of women though who hate it. They also hate "chick flicks" or mushy romances. But for every women that doesn't like that, there's 20 more who do. They're the ones buying romance novels and dreaming about their "soul mates" who are hot sexy hunks. So women perpetuate this just as much as "male privilege" does and saying that male privilege IS the reason why women like something or act they way they do is another discredit to the female species. It's like you're right on board saying that women can't make up their own minds about something and they've just been led along like little lambs their whole life to act, think, and look a certain way. Well plenty of women don't fit in that box at all and they know they are free to make their own choices.

I think that's the thing that upsets me the most about this. I've had to live in female society and in a mostly female body and regardless of the way my brain is wired I've never thought of myself as a victim in society, subjected to the wills of men. Luckily I had a very strong female role model with my mother (who is now 71 btw, so she lived through a lot of actual sexism).

There are female roles and there are male roles in society. Mostly because males and females are different both in body and brain. Females have attributes that males do not and vice versa. To preach about gender "equality" on some of these things is to ignore those simple differences. I think the majority of people in our society know that a women can do anything she wants to. Yes, there's still a percentage of men who don't think so. There's still sexism in advertising and in the entertainment industry and it's probably not going to change any time soon. But on an individual level it's absolutely possible for a women to go through life and, when she encounters male privilege to assert herself and not cave to the will of someone else (violent crime situations aside).

Just try to make a list in your head of ten character traits traditionally associated with men or masculinity, and ten with women or femininity - no second guessing or forcing yourself to disprove the expected result or thinking about specific people, pick the first ones that jump on your mind. For each gender, how many of those traits were positive? How many negative?

I'd bet I know the answers, and I bet they're the same as mine, even though I consider myself feminist.

Once again this can totally be based on individual experience. And no I'm not second guessing or "forcing" myself to disprove this. My list for women would include: strength, intelligence, the ability to be under great stress and handle it, the ability to do multiple things, the ability to keep their cool under certain circumstances, they're able to put themselves in someone else's shoes easier or understand things at an emotional level ...  These are universal things that can be applied to just about all women. I really don't know what list you were expecting ... maybe something more along the lines like femininity = weakness and sexual objectification? If so, then you're just as guilty of perpetuating the bullsh*t in our society as the males who are ignorant of their privileges.

Maybe that's just me, coming from my experience. But wouldn't things be different if all the women who had been convinced they have been made out to be victims of males wants and desires, thought this way?

And it's not feminists from the '70s only that have this problem. I see them all over the place. It's actually pretty rare for me to see the 'good' feminists. I normally see people in there 20's acting like they brainwashed into feminism and not thinking about facts, but just making stuff up about how oppressed women are without looking at the truth.  I also feel like the name 'feminist' is wrong to use if you want equality. This is why I call myself an equalitist and not a feminist.

IMO all it takes it just listening to some of the feminist diatribe and examples or taking a few "women's studies" classes to turn someone into thinking that way because alternate ideas are not presented. Everything is skewed to perpetuate that women are victims. Note how most of the examples have terms like "women always" or "all women". Right there that's not speaking the truth.

But just about anything can be presented in a way that it makes women look like the victims. Here's one example – lots of women want to have children and they may leave their career, or leave for awhile and come back because of this. No one is making them do that. They are willingly choosing to do that. However, through the feminist lens they are being forced to have the children, forced to leave their jobs, forced to take a pay cut, etc. etc. There's actually laws now where when can take maternity leave and return to their jobs at the same pay rates. So most everything can be presented in whatever light necessary to show examples of how downtrodden and abused women are in society still when it doesn't always apply to real women living in the real world.

Don't confuse my comments for denial that male privilege exists. The points I'm making is that it does not effect all women because all women have not been raised to feel they are victims or the "weaker" sex. There's plenty of women who reject the notion that the cards are not stacked in their favor and look this sort of privilege right in the face and move past it. To me, that's a lot more powerful than listing example after example of scenarios where men have more privileges and perpetuating these notions that women don't have as many rights.

There are a lot of different kinds of privilege, and they are not always so easy to separate out from each other - even if that's your desire.  Nor are they universal.  There are lots of mitigating circumstances that alter the playing field.  In other words they are not automatic.  Not all males get 'male privilege'.  Far from it.  As someone noted they are best enjoyed by 'masculine' men - in other words 'no dorks allowed'.  That short, fat kid who makes noises when he's breathing hard - he ain't never going to know any male privilege.  And in order to climb the corporate ladder being male, even being a masculine male, you still have to exhibit a bunch of other stuff, the 'team player' junk, the 'go along to get along' shuck 'N jive, the expectations that you'll do an entire laundry list of 'the right things'.

And then there is what to everyone posting above me seems to conveniently ignore - which is that privilege has a corresponding cost involved.  The things that are required to qualify become eternally mandatory.  There are expectations that go along with them that have to be constantly met.

Exactly. Simply having a penis doesn't guarantee you "rights".

And thanks for pointing out the corporate ladder stuff and the costs of privilege. As soon as you don't meet one of those expectations, you're out. Good points.

[Sia]

@ sia

"Women are taken seriously when they report rape"

I REALLY hope that wasn't words put in to my mouth or something.

I didn't put them in your mouth, you said so yourself :

Also as a man you can never tell anyone about it because you know that they will not take you seriously. If you are a woman you will be taken seriously other than you you where raped by a woman of cause.

From what you say it's not sexism towards women. Nor is it female vs males rights, but in reality femininity is bad and masculinity is good.

Other than that I'm not sure what to say to your comment because I know you will not agree with me.

I said that the way femininity/womanhood is perceived versus the way masculinity/manhood is perceived played a role, I didn't say that it was actually true that femininity < masculinity.

Also, if you don't agree with my comment, then by all means I'd like to hear why - that's the whole point of debating  . I'm not looking for asspats and don't take disagreeing on ideas or theories as a personal attack or anything (even though I know I can come off as blunt or rude), so as long as it doesn't go there I'm all for it.


To the two comments above (edit : 4 or 5 posts above now actually) > the whole point of privilege is that it is something you inherently profit from because of who you are (or who you're perceived to be). Yes, there are other advantages that you have to pay for, but they're not the kind of systemic privilege in society we're talking about here.

And saying that (perceived-as-)males have privilege is not saying that any man will have it better than any woman regardless of other factors. Of course a rich white socially-skilled woman will have it better than a poor black man with no social skills in most areas of life. Privilege means that, all other factors considered equals, one group generally have it better than the other by virtue of being a member of that group. The short fat boy who makes noises when he breathes hard still have it better than the short fat girl who makes noises when she breathes hard. The workaholic corporate-ladder savvy woman still have less of a chance at climbing to the top than the workaholic corporate-ladder savvy man. (See : intersectionality).

[Kevin Peña]

Okay, I went off to school today, and this thread exploded with long posts, so I'm not reading them completely. I glossed over the posts and found some key topics that I'll just off my opinion on.

Rape--> Women get raped more than men; there's no question about that. However, I am confident that male rape is goes unreported quite often, which leads to the larger gap in statistics. Men would feel ashamed to be raped by a woman since they would likely be shamed.

Fitness--> The short, fat boy does not have it better than the short, fat girl. Guys are expected to be physically capable, and if you don't believe me, walk into any physical education class and you'll find that the fat guys are labeled as "pathetic" while the fat girls aren't.

Civil cases--> Juries sympathize with women more often in civil cases like divorce//custody battles. They are also more willing to believe a woman who lies about domestic violence in a divorce hearing (a tactic commonly used in California so that women get more than 50%) than if a man was to do so.

Workplace//school--> Women get harassed sexually more in male-dominated jobs by statistics. If you're the only woman in a room with a bunch of guys, one of them is bound to be an ass. For example, if a guy were to go into nursing or elementary school teaching, he would be more likely to be sexually harassed since out of the many women in his workplace, one of them is bound to be a perv.

Clothes--> Women don't have to dress very fancily (I know female office workers), and if they do, it's bound to attract attention, sort of like how some high school girls wear VERY short pants. If you show it, don't complain if guys look. Women's clothing is also not always skin-tight. Any pair of female slacks or a sweater dress will show you. Plus, I still present as male, and whenever I come to school in my bike-riding wardrobe (which is tight as heck), I get whistled at//gawked at by ladies. Harassment goes both ways.
                 Men can't wear dresses, but women can wear skirts//dresses//pants. The reason why male clothing is so simple and boring is because it's frowned upon for a man to be "flamboyant" and any sparkle in a man's wardrobe will most likely get him to be labelled as a "hipster" or as incompetent.

TV/Movies--> I know a lot of guys who detest the way men are portrayed in many TV shows: fat, stupid, and bald. However, you don't hear men complaining about it because they know that no one takes TV shows like Family Guy or any sitcom seriously. Honestly, what sociology major would put that in his/her bibliography?
         As for a TV show with a hunky husband, check out any soap opera. I personally like Desperate Housewives. Mike is so yummy!  Also, Drop Dead Diva features a size 16 female protagonist. I call that progress, albeit slow progress. 
        Also, everyone loves action movies because they have explosions, guns, etc. There is a lot of action, and people find that to be stimulating. Plus, if a chick flick doesn't feature what women want, why do we watch them? 

Emotions--> Men with emotions are teased by other men.

Conformity--> Men are expected to be "manly men" or they get chided. A man is ridiculed if he knows nothing about cars or other mechanical crap. Women, however, can like things associated with either gender. In fact, a lot of guys find girls who can do "manly" things to be hot. Nonetheless, they also have the hassle of maintaining their femininity while they're at it, so it's not all lollipops and rainbows for either side.

Both genders have their pros//cons, and saying that either is inherently better than the other in terms of lifestyle is nonsense.

[unknown]

@Sia

Sorry about that. I didn't mean that  . I know that sometimes women don't get taken seriously that was a slip up. What I meant to say was that women normally gets taken more seriously than men when it comes to rape.

In some ways I kinda do get what you mean. What I meant by the femininity<masculinity not really what you say, but what I started thinking about when I read your comment.

The part where I really didn't agree with you is the fact that it seems like you deny the female privilege (by all means correct me if I'm wrong) because there is one (as others have said). There is a privilege for being Caucasian, Asian and so on. Some of them might be better than others, but there will always be pros and coins of everything including race, gender and sex.

@SarahM777 I'm saying that the western world have many feminist views. It's kinda like the: 'it's ok to be racist against white people' thing that exist now. 'It's ok to call all men rapists' or something like that I guess.

@Insideontheoutside I totally agree with you. Men and women are different. Most women actually enjoy looking good. Why does that make them oppressed? Let's have this scenario: 'Ann likes fashion and wants to be a nurse. For some reason she gets a lot of shame for this. She doesn't get why she can't do what she likes and makes her happy.'

[SarahM777]

@SarahM777 I'm saying that the western world have many feminist views. It's kinda like the: 'it's ok to be racist against white people' thing that exist now. 'It's ok to call all men rapists' or something like that I guess.

I think I got it,part of it is the double standard that a woman that take's a traditional role of a housewife,homemaker and mother are less of a woman because they don't work outside of the home and the hard core feminists really don't want to address those needs and concerns,because when a woman does that it doesn't help promote their viewpoint.

[Kevin Peña]

You mean the whos its that attached to the whats it that needs to be removed with the wahtcama call it?

You made my day! 

[SarahM777]

You made my day! 

It was a standing joke at work. They wouldn't let me play with the tools,they were afraid that someone would have to take me to the emergency room. 

[Kevin Peña]

It was a standing joke at work. They wouldn't let me play with the tools,they were afraid that someone would have to take me to the emergency room. 

Well, why would they hire you in what is presumably a hardware position if they don't think you can use tools? 

[SarahM777]

Well, why would they hire you in what is presumably a hardware position if they don't think you can use tools? 

It was at a factory and from time to time some minor thing would needed to be adjusted or changed on the machine (usually saw blades because they got dull) and we usually worked in crews of 4. The job itself was mostly lifting and stacking off the back of the machines.

[tekla]

As someone who works in a highly skilled environment that involves using a wide array of tools (mechanical, carpentry and electronic) I certainty don't think that it's a male/female thing.  Most of the people I've known in my life are not very good with them, and if you were giving them a 5 1/2 circular saw you might as well give them directions and a map to the closest emergency room too - that's male and female.  It might be a stereotype/expectation that men can do that better than women, but no one who has ever had to work in the real world in that environment thinks it's true.  What is true that more little boys grow up working along side dad, like sis is in the kitchen with mom, and by the time they hit high school it should not be remarkable that Jr. can do tools stuff and Sis can cook, but not the reverse.  It's all about practice and aptitude more than anything else.  And I'm pretty sure that the two most critical components of that a) physical - hand to eye coordination and reflexes and b) mental - the ability to transfer two-dimensional drawings and representations into 3-D mental images.  The second - stuff like blueprints, mechanical drawings and schematics - people seem to intrinsically grasp or fail to comprehend from the get-to and I've never seen much improvement even after teaching and coaching.  You either get it or you don't

[Kevin Peña]

The weird thing is that I've always known how to use tools, but I know nothing about cars, just bicycles. I get a lot of grief for that. 

[tekla]

Bikes are external, if you know and understand bikes 90% of what goes wrong with them can be visually observed almost instantly.  Like the chain is not sitting on the gears, or the brakes lack pads.  (though they are getting far more complex, my hydraulic disc breaks required me learning a whole new system (though luckily they are just scaled down versions of auto hydraulic disc brakes). So you can't instantly see problems in the hydraulic system, or the disc system on the newer bikes like you could on the old rim brakes.

But cars are one of the most complex mechanical creations in history.  You have several different systems working in synergy all of which have to be running close to 100% for the damn things to work in the first place, and not all of those systems are mechanical.  There are several different hydraulic systems, and a very complex electrical system, and cooling systems, and transmission systems, and braking systems,  fuel systems, exhaust systems - yeesh, it's a nightmare.  It's also pretty much all hidden, which makes diagnostics much harder.  And to add to that the tolerances are mind-blowingly small and are subjected to lots of heat and pressure and that too makes it harder to deal with.  A friend of mine who does lots of auto work and is pretty much the best auto mechanic I know is lost when it gets to the electric system so he calls me.  And auto electric systems require a ton of patience, as it's going to take a long time to just track down the problem,  the the majority of wires run in highly unreachable places does not help either.  Very few professional mechanics know all of it, electrical and transmission work in particular seem like specialties.

[Twin Hammer Tommy]

I don't know that any trans guy "wants male privilege".   We do get accused, unfairly, of transitioning for that reason by certain radfem sectors, but that's the only place I've ever heard it.

For my own personal experience, before I transitioned dudes (one assumes cis) would yell things at me from cars or make inappropriate comments about my person, or stand way too close or get in my face while talking to me (in that smilingly intimidating way) in all sorts of situations.   And all this stuff stopped immediately after I started passing.

It seems like a privilege to me to no longer be on the radar of creepy dudes.

Also, irt what at least one person said about holding doors and stuff, and men getting treated worse because of that.  I always noticed lots of guys seem to make this big show of like, holding the door and waving their arm like they are fricking Lancelot saving you from something.   Frankly, I prefer they let the door close in my face.  At least then they are treating me like an equal and not a helpless child.

[Kevin Peña]

Okay, I just imagined someone doing a courtsey after holding the door. 

However, I think that most guys hold doors open to be polite, only waving their arm back to indicate that they are doing just that: holding a door. Don't take it as patronization. Just my $0.02.

[aleon515]

Okay, I just imagined someone doing a courtsey after holding the door. 

However, I think that most guys hold doors open to be polite, only waving their arm back to indicate that they are doing just that: holding a door. Don't take it as patronization. Just my $0.02.

I don't take it as patronization, only that they think of me as female, which is sort of bad enough.

--Jay