Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Holding doors

Started by unknown, December 08, 2012, 05:36:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

V M

I've had a few gals get kinda agro with me in younger days for holding the door before I started transitioning, one tried to push the door to hit me with it  :o  Most that don't appreciate common courtesy for whatever reason just gave me dirty looks and a few got a bit verbally abusive
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •  

Shantel

Quote from: V M on December 09, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
I've had a few gals get kinda agro with me in younger days for holding the door before I started transitioning, one tried to push the door to hit me with it  :o  Most that don't appreciate common courtesy for whatever reason just gave me dirty looks and a few got a bit verbally abusive

I experienced that often just after the women's lib movement went militant. I could read those women that would appreciate it and I just let the door slam in the faces of those that probably wouldn't. I'm sure that became the mode for many, since those days many have had an attitude adjustment about the militant attitude, after all like we've been saying it's not a gender issue but one of civility and common sense.
  •  

Sia

I lived in a small town in a rural area during my teenage years, and holding doors was common courtesy there regardless of the gender of both the doorholder and the person behind. Now that I live in a big city in an industrial area, I rarely see it and when it happens it's always a man holding the door for a woman - and they both always laugh awkwardly about it like "oh look at us playing out old chivalry, aren't we silly!".
I still hold the door to anyone as I learned to do as a teen, but everytime I can see that it surprises them - and they look even more surprised (sometimes pleasantly) when they try to share the "oh we're so silly" laugh with me, and I don't bite and act as though it's perfectly normal. I always find amusing to see how such a natural gesture (to me) messes with their heads, silly urbanites  :P
  •  

tekla

I read this thread this AM and was thinking about it as I did my Vegas walkabout.  I watched with special attention who was and who was not holding doors.  And because of the huge air conditining that the casino's have Vegas has as huge bunch of big-ass, really heavy doors.  Seems to be pretty even all round.  People were holding the door for people, and that's with the National Championship Rodeo going on, so lots of countryREAL cowboy boys and girls.  The only real exception I noted was that men did go out of there way to make sure to open the doors for the girls who were dressed up for a night on the town.  But that's just standard formal dating rules.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

FTMDiaries

Here in the UK (or at least, in my part of it) it's a gender-neutral thing. We glance behind ourselves as we go through the door and if someone else is following, we just hold the door until they catch it.

It's been several decades since I last saw this business of standing holding the door open whilst waiting for someone else to follow through in front of you. That version always seemed sexist and condescending and was almost exclusively practiced by men holding the door for women... so it's just not done here any more. At least, not between strangers.

I must admit I get irritated at people who don't bother to thank you for holding the door for them. They almost seem to think they're entitled to have you provide the service for them. I was always taught that someone holding the door for you is a courtesy and you should thank them for it - but the younger generation isn't being taught that it seems.

The one weird thing I've noticed in the town where I work is that the older generation here not only won't thank you, but they'll positively glare at you for holding the door. I've had that from men & women in this town. It's really weird.





  •  

DriftingCrow

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2012, 03:56:45 AM
  The only real exception I noted was that men did go out of there way to make sure to open the doors for the girls who were dressed up for a night on the town.  But that's just standard formal dating rules.

When I date women, I always hold the door open for my girl when we're out. But, I don't go out of my way when I date guys. I guess I am sexist.   :-\
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
  •  

Shantel

Quote from: LearnedHand on December 10, 2012, 06:49:18 AM
When I date women, I always hold the door open for my girl when we're out. But, I don't go out of my way when I date guys. I guess I am sexist.   :-\

No you're not Taka, don't buy into that sort of mental self labeling. Anyway, most men will prefer to open it themselves unless they're hands are full of packages.
  •  

spring0721

Quote from: Stephe on December 08, 2012, 09:16:26 PM
I have no problem someone holding, opening or any of the above a door for me. Guys in the south will always open a door for a lady and wait for them to walk in. I always thank them. I will hold a door if someone is fairly close, I won't "make then run" holding it if they are too far away. Plus I normally don't hold a door and wait for a guy. If one is close by I will give it an extra push open for them.
Men in the south are the best! By far so gentlemanly.  Anytime a guy is near a door they open it and then step back to allow the lady to enter first.  I don't think it's sexist, it's just something that has been a learned behavior while they were growing up.  If someone is directly behind me I hold the door for them as well; as a polite courtesy.  However if a man is walking up to a door at the same time I am, I will allow them to open the door and obviously always give my thanks. & a smile....I think maybe it's just a southern thing.
People are people, treat everyone with the same respect and courtesy that you want to receive.
  •  

Berserk

I think one thing that people need to take into consideration before criticising women who do feel offended (and yes, they do have that right and shouldn't be judged for it, imo) by men holding doors for them, is the fact that men (cismen in particular) do often take a very condescending approach to dealing with women. Very often its not viewed as condescending by the cisman because he's been socialised to believe that it's the "chivalrous" (or whatever modern incarnation you want to call it) thing to do. But it does come from a very condescending tradition. It's the same kind of guys who only seem to address women as "honey," "dear" and "baby" even if they barely know the woman, and really don't take what the woman says seriously at all. They're the kind of guys who go out of their way to practically force women into allowing them to carry things for them because "she might hurt herself" (or more likely his ego). All this because they believe that that's the way things are/the natural order. Having worked in really macho environments, I saw it on a regular basis, to the point where a woman or someone perceived as a woman isn't even asked if they need help...it's assumed.

I remember some days getting off work after having to deal with condescending cismen like that and yeah was pretty much ready to snap at any dude who so much as looked at me. And many women feel that way too. I feel like reacting negatively when women express that is more attacking women for their reaction to a sexist society and feeling frustrated with it than understanding why they feel that way. In that tradition women are always "b*tches" if they come off as angry or upset for a reason you don't understand, lesbians are of course "the worst man-haters of them all" etc. etc. etc. Typical misogynist stuff.

Is door holding in itself sexist? No. Like many other people in this thread have said, I've noticed that where I live it's pretty common courtesy. Whether you're a woman or a man you hold the door for the person behind you. It's not particularly gendered. But I think at the same time we need to recognise the way it can be and still is gendered in certain areas of society and the way its been used to belittle or condescend to women as less capable. Probably when a woman expresses discomfort or even anger about it, there's a lot more going on than just "omg this person opened a door for me." Most likely it's the last straw of her day where she's had men do things that legitimately are belittling and treating her as less capable.
  •  

Kevin Peña

Well, Berserk, that still doesn't make it fair to call a man a misogynist for holding a door open for a lady. No man thinks, "Oh, a lady... I'd bet she can't open this door by herself." It's a sign of respect and consideration, not sexism. As for bearing heavy burdens, there are men who don't like to see women carry very heavy things, not because they're sexist, but because of habit. I think it's more about men being expected to show how macho they are rather than to put down women.
  •  

Berserk

Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 07:42:04 PM
Well, Berserk, that still doesn't make it fair to call a man a misogynist for holding a door open for a lady. No man thinks, "Oh, a lady... I'd bet she can't open this door by herself." It's a sign of respect and consideration, not sexism. As for bearing heavy burdens, there are men who don't like to see women carry very heavy things, not because they're sexist, but because of habit. I think it's more about men being expected to show how macho they are rather than to put down women.

It's entirely fair to recognise that all cismen are at some level misogynist. All the blame seems to constantly fall on women and angry reactions to sexism in these conversations and that is definitely not fair in the least. It's like blaming someone for being angry at systemic racism, as far as I'm concerned. This is the product of being socialised in a society that is at its core extremely misogynist.

As far as it "not being sexist" to not like seeing women carry heavy things "because of habit"...that habit is the definition of sexism. Sexism does not need to be conscious. In fact, the danger of misogyny in society is that it is ingrained and not thought about. And yes, men showing how macho they are is about putting women down. That is the consequence.
  •  

Kevin Peña

Well, I'm not saying that being angry at sexism is bad. I'm just saying that there isn't any sexist intention. Plus, if it's fair to say that all men are at some level misogynistic, then it's also fair to say that all women hate men at some level. Making generalizations like that could be construed as sexism.

The habit I was referring to was the habit of having to overcompensate one's manliness as a male in order to prove your worth as a man. All I'm saying is that men are, at some level, victims of society as well.
  •  

unknown

Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 07:49:41 PM
It's entirely fair to recognise that all cismen are at some level misogynist. All the blame seems to constantly fall on women and angry reactions to sexism in these conversations and that is definitely not fair in the least. It's like blaming someone for being angry at systemic racism, as far as I'm concerned. This is the product of being socialised in a society that is at its core extremely misogynist.

As far as it "not being sexist" to not like seeing women carry heavy things "because of habit"...that habit is the definition of sexism. Sexism does not need to be conscious. In fact, the danger of misogyny in society is that it is ingrained and not thought about. And yes, men showing how macho they are is about putting women down. That is the consequence.

Erm, no. Does: 'It's entirely fair to recognise that all ciswomen are at some level Cry babies' sound fair? NO it doesn't. Generalisations are bad either way.


  •  

Berserk

Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 07:54:17 PM
Well, I'm not saying that being angry at sexism is bad. I'm just saying that there isn't any sexist intention. Plus, if it's fair to say that all men are at some level misogynistic, then it's also fair to say that all women hate men at some level. Making generalizations like that could be construed as sexism.

The habit I was referring to was the habit of having to overcompensate one's manliness as a male in order to prove your worth as a man. All I'm saying is that men are, at some level, victims of society as well.

I would say that the intention is not what makes something sexist or not. Again, the effect of living in a misogynist society (just as the effect of living in a racist or ableist or classist etc society) is that people are not often aware of themselves living within a privileged position. Cismen are not often likely to recognise the degree to which society is misogynist because they were not socialised as female, they have never lived as female, they have never been treated as female by society and known what it's like to be treated as such. As such, many of the actions that they see as "normal" or "habit" stem from misogynist tradition. Door opening is something that has changed a lot today in that most everyone does it as courtesy to other people regardless of gender. But it is still one of those things that does come into play, especially when a person has to spend their whole day being treated like a damsel in distress or someone less capable by men in the work place.

As far as your last statement, I agree that men are also victims of misogyny. Misogyny hurts everyone. But that doesn't change the fact that misogyny centres around the fear of being seen as female/differentiating one's self from the lesser (aka female). The overcompensation of manliness that men feel in society comes from the fear of being deemed feminine or female, because being female is seen as being inferior. Again, just because that's not the direct thought process going on in a cisman's head when he's doing these things, does not mean that its not at its root. For example, the fear by straight-identifying cismen of being seen as gay. They're afraid of being seen as less masculine/male (meaning more feminine/female). That's misogyny, whether intended or not.

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 11, 2012, 07:55:01 PM
Erm, no. Does: 'It's entirely fair to recognise that all ciswomen are at some level Cry babies' sound fair? NO it doesn't. Generalisations are bad either way.

Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. If a man is socialised as male in society and enjoys all the benefits of male privilege, they will be misogynist at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of male privilege. If that person hasn't done anything to unlearn misogyny (just as with unlearning any form of oppression that we've learned as human beings living in oppressive societies) they will remain misogynist. That is reality.
  •  

Berserk

Just as an added example about what I mean within another context. I am a person that would be considered able-bodied in this society. I have the privilege that comes with being able-bodied. I grew up with someone close to me who was differently-abled so I like to think that I am aware to some degree of my privilege and the way simple things of "habit" in this society are discriminatory towards people who are differently-abled. But I would never assume that I still don't have ableist attitudes without intending to and even while trying to be conscious of my privilege. I will always have to work on relearning my own socialisation. Things like always assuming that a person using crutches or a wheel chair or who is blind to some degree needs my help...feeling like I always have to jump to do something like yes, hold a door or help them with something. Or forgetting how inaccessible so many spaces are that I take for granted, forgetting how certain attitudes and spaces can be unwelcoming.

But what I've learned in my attempt to try to be more aware and a better "ally" (for lack of a better word...and I kinda hate that word heh) is realising that there is difference between being ready to help any human being when they need it, and assuming that certain human beings always need help. A differently-abled person may well not like always being treated like they need someone to rush to open a door, practically jump out of their way, constantly ask them if they need help. Instead people should just be open to hearing if any human being needs help while also not making assumptions. If a differently-abled person gets upset with me for trying to help them with things like moving things, opening things etc. and I get "offended" because they were upset...to me that's ignoring my privilege and not listening to how they may feel living in their bodies in a society that treats them the way it does. It's as if I'd be more worried about my right to continue believing what I believe than truly treating them with respect.
  •  

Kevin Peña

Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
I would say that the intention is not what makes something sexist or not. Again, the effect of living in a misogynist society (just as the effect of living in a racist or ableist or classist etc society) is that people are not often aware of themselves living within a privileged position.
_______

But it is still one of those things that does come into play, especially when a person has to spend their whole day being treated like a damsel in distress or someone less capable by men in the work place.
______


You should really check out the "male privilege" thread. I for one don't think that men are inherently advantaged anymore. I've lived as a male, I always maintain an objective view, and I have not seen any significant discrepancy in male//female treatment.

Frankly, I don't like that whole "privileged people don't see that they're privileged" argument. It's an invalid argument that people only use since it is impossible to argue against it in any other way than to blatantly deny it, making anyone that does look like a bad guy without a rational rebuttal, when in actuality, it's only that there is no rational argument against an irrational point. Take a look at the following scenario:

"You're just being defensive."
"No, I'm not."
"See? You're being defensive."

There's no difference.
__________

Okay, I go to school, volunteer in a hospital, and am part of a volunteer fire department. Let me tell you that none of the females are treated as damsels in distress. They're expected and assumed to be capable of doing their jobs. Now does that mean that men won't help women out every once in awhile? No, it doesn't. Does a man helping a woman mean he views her as inadequate? No, it doesn't.
________
  •  

unknown

Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. If a man is socialised as male in society and enjoys all the benefits of male privilege, they will be misogynist at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of male privilege. If that person hasn't done anything to unlearn misogyny (just as with unlearning any form of oppression that we've learned as human beings living in oppressive societies) they will remain misogynist. That is reality.

Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. Because a woman have estrogen , they will be a cry baby at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of estrogen. If that person doesn't take testosterone to become a man they will remain a cry baby. That is reality.

You say that all cis male people are misogynists, but then you say they can unlearn it...  :-\ You are contradicting yourself.


  •  

V M

Hi friends  :police:

Time for a time out  :)  Take a break, take a breath, find something constructive to do with yourselves other than argue about the common courtesy of holding the door for others

Topic temporarily locked

Thank you

V M
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •  

V M

Topic unlocked

Please stay on topic, keep the conversation on a discussion level and avoid making posts that could possibly be construed as a personal attack

Thank you

V M
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •