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Can we really understand each other completely?

Started by Kevin Peña, December 17, 2012, 07:22:31 PM

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Kevin Peña

Ok, I have noticed that whenever I read about FTMs, I always think at the back of my head, "Why would you do that?" I always feel that MTFs have what FTMs want and vice-versa. Of course, we can understand each other in terms of being trans in general; however, do we sometimes not have as much sympathy for our opposites? Even if it's subconscious, do you think that MTFs care and understand a bit less about FTMs and vice versa? Just a thought.  ???
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peky

Quote from: DianaP on December 17, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
Ok, I have noticed that whenever I read about FTMs, I always think at the back of my head, "Why would you do that?" I always feel that MTFs have what FTMs want and vice-versa. Of course, we can understand each other in terms of being trans in general; however, do we sometimes not have as much sympathy for our opposites? Even if it's subconscious, do you think that MTFs care and understand a bit less about FTMs and vice versa? Just a thought.  ???


It seems to me that the Gents seem to retain more of their indoctrination that the Ladies. Just my opinion.
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Kevin Peña

Quote from: peky on December 17, 2012, 07:46:26 PM
It seems to me that the Gents seem to retain more of their indoctrination that the Ladies. Just my opinion.

What do you mean?
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Emily Aster

I try to stay out of the FtM forums if I happen to notice that latest post was in there. Luckily the only ones I've stumbled on are common topics, like fear of being clocked. 
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Ms. OBrien CVT

each group has their own concerns, hopes, fears and issues.  Some may not be understood, but that does not change the underlying facts that some things are shared.

And some times the boys have insights for us girls and visa versa.

  
It does not take courage or bravery to change your gender.  It takes fear of living one more day in the wrong one.~me
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Rena-san

Before I accepted myself, my reaction to a mtf was "that's wrong and sinful. Me, I would never do that. No never." (Lol). My reaction to a ftm was "why in the world would anyone want to be a guy, do they not understand how disgusting and awful it is?"

Now, I'm just cool with both. Whatever makes someone happy. Everyone is different and unique and I'm just ok with that. I understand that both paths are incredibly difficult paths to trod without negative and unsupportive input from douche bags, like I used to be. I can get a good laugh about my old self though. So obvious, and yet so so very stupid.
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FTMDiaries

I understand that certain people want certain physical features, but to be completely honest with you, I don't want what MtFs have because I see you as a whole person rather than a collection of body parts, and as such you're in the same boat I'm in. What I really want is to be happy and comfortable in my own skin. If other people are happy with their body parts, well, I can appreciate that they are happy and I'm happy for them. If I'm not happy with mine then that's my problem to sort out. And if somebody else has the parts I believe I should've been born with, that's their indaba. (Is that the first bit of isiZulu in this forum?) ;)

I think a little consideration on all sides is what's required here. I'm sure we all understand only too well how certain subjects can trigger dysphoria as we all suffer from the exact same discomfort, albeit with different triggers. I try to avoid any topics in this particular forum that seem to be MtF-specific, such as topics about breast growth or hair removal, because they'd trigger some very traumatic memories for me. People talking about desperately wanting certain features will upset people who desperately want to get rid of theirs, so I think we need to respect each other and steer clear of the obvious pitfalls.

And I never visit the MtF board - not because I feel unwelcome (I'm sure I'd be very welcome there), but just because I'd imagine that what you ladies discuss in there would be very triggering for me. You deserve a safe space to discuss these things freely and I'd only have myself to blame if I were to blunder into a bunch of triggering threads. ;)

To cut a long story short, can't we all just... get along? :)





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spacial

This is something I've also spent a lot of time thinking about. In the context of transgender.

When I was younger, I didn't realise that gfemales could be transgender. Males were because they were perverts and so on. It was only when I discovered that it does indeed affect gfemales that I began to accept myself as valid.

But in any cross gender situation or condition, the differing experiences will necessarily be clouded by the varying experiences associated with the birth sex.

The differing attiudes will happen even if the parents are the weirdest sort of libertarians imaginable. Their self deception is much evidence of that. But there will always be outside, gender based influences, even just a look from a complete stranger.

The differing physical experiences, especially during pubitry. Whatever our individual feelings about these, they are real.

There are some videos made by a 19 year old girl in SE England, who has AIS. She has discovered she won't get a huge number of experiences that other girls get. OK, she makes light of it and to be fair, she is quite intelegent so has probably worked most of it out in her mind already. But the expectation of becoming another one of the girls, competing for the best boys with all the expectations that implies, suddenly to disappear like a mirage. It's as if she finds herself caught in a middle, neither one or the other.

Imogen. If you happen to be reading this then please understand that whatever thoughts I or others here may have they are the polar opposite of malice or ill intent. I deeply admire what you acheved and respect the courage you have shown, not least in making your videos.

It's interesting especially because it indicates that the expectations we each have of what we can achieve are so often governed by our environments.

For us, our situation is perhaps similar to those with level 5 AIS such as Imogen. But our physical appearance and often our biological functioning is  even healthy for our birth sex, it's only in our brains that we experience problems.

I think it's important to understand that AIS is perhaps similar to trangender. Some of us may will have some stages of AIG, but the realities are that gmales may not be and assigned gfemales would know anyway.

What this all boils down to is that, such differences that can create some friction, lack of real understand, even animosity are a consequence of what we are having to deal with.

The common factor is transgender. I doubt any of gmale will post a thread here with the title, Oh Crap, I'm pregnant!

The solutions, the objectives, the pitfalls and the obstacles  are all very different.
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Cassandra Hyacinth

I'll be honest and say that I don't even see trans men and trans women as inherently 'opposite'.

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense on its own, so I'll elaborate:

Basically, I don't see 'male' and 'female' as representing one gender each. Rather, I see each as being a loose aggregation of an infinite number of genders, which an individual person makes sense of and comes to identify with one of the two labels (or neither, or both, or something else, or somewhere in between etc.) Thus, each person is heading along their own specific path, with many or potentially not many similarities to various other paths.

So in effect, it's impossible to completely understand anybody else's experiences. And that's why acceptance and respect are so important. :)
My Skype name is twisted_strings.

If you need someone to talk to, and would like to add me as a contact, send me a contact request on Skype, plus a PM on here telling me your Skype name.  :)
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aleon515

We have a mixed support group mtf, ftm, gender queer, etc etc. It can be a great group. Though if you want specifics on stuff related re: binding, tucking, etc. not so good. We have specific groups for that. But we seem to do really good with each other. I'm dating a mtf, so obviously we do pretty well. I also have a long distance mtf friend, which works out well for both of us.

I am always struck by the ironies, in fact sometimes seem amazed by them. I get into a thing where I just keep thinking how odd it is that we want what the other doesn't want, and vice versa.

I usually like the gals coming in with their comments, unless they seem more personal.
I don't know re: keeping our respective "indoctrination" and who is "better" at dumping it. I would guess both get very intensive indoctrination at various stages. I don't know that ftms "keep" more of it or no. I occasionally read the mtf forum and have very occasionally posted. I try to keep the boundaries on this-- there are certain topics I would never post on. I'm not generally triggered by what I read, but I think it is something of a concern.

I agree that I don't see us as "opposites" either. I feel that in some way we are all messing with the gender binary-- even if not specifically non-binary.

--Jay
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Berserk

I don't think anyone is gonna understand anyone 100% no matter who they are. Also I don't really think its always about one person wanting what the other has, for example I'm in a place where I'm fine with the genitals I was born with and wouldn't want the alternative. Tbh, it's never really occurred to me not to understand why various transwomen do what they have to do in order to feel comfortable with their bodies. I totally get why transwomen do what they do and that's because it's likely they do what they need to do for the same reasons that I do it lol The acts themselves might differ slightly but we all have the same reason. That's just the way I see it, like different things are going to make different people comfortable with themselves so go out and do it without judgment.

Just to weigh in on the discussion about transguy in transwomen forums and viceversa...I notice that transguys go into transwomen forums a lot less and don't weigh in as much in conversations as transwomen do in transguy forums. I notice a similar thing irl with this "advice giving" that sometimes seems a little parental when its unsolicited. I don't know why this phenomenon exists but...yeah sometimes I think people feel they need to just talk with others who share a similar identity (or at least I do, dunno about others). Personally, I'm like that as well unless a discussion is in a general forum and aimed at anyone's opinions. I guess I just notice that transwomen (not all or the majority or anything like that obviously) seem more inclined to "give advice" without being asked to transguys...I dunno, I can't speak for others obviously and I don't want to appear like I'm trying to criticise or something like that, but sometimes it can be a little invasive at least in my opinion. I guess I just always assume that when someone posts in a certain section they're usually meaning to ask other people who identify under that section. Which I admit might just be my interpretation. I don't think in that way that we can always understand each other...but not in the "I don't understand why so and so would do that" kind of way...just in that sometimes as different as individuals can be, sharing an identity in some way gives certain experiences and sometimes you might only really feel comfortable discussing it with others who share that experience or some similar experience.
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eli77

Quote from: Berserk on December 18, 2012, 11:05:49 PM
just in that sometimes as different as individuals can be, sharing an identity in some way gives certain experiences and sometimes you might only really feel comfortable discussing it with others who share that experience or some similar experience.

Oh. I didn't know people felt that way. I guess because I don't feel I share an identity or very many experiences with anyone in particular. I've tended to just post wherever I feel I can be of use. But okay.  :-\
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Adam (birkin)

I think the furthest it has ever gone to me is genuinely wondering why anyone would be happy to have boobs or a vagina. But I've never felt a jealousy or anything towards any trans woman. Because I know how much it hurts to be trans, and I would feel bad if someone was envious of my female body. Actually, I have had trans women express envy over my breasts (that they've never seen), my facial features, etc...and it hurts. So I'd never envy something that caused someone else so much pain.
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Cindy

One of the reasons for a support site is ----to support.

I'm MtF, a term I dislike but has a means of communicating to others of what I'm going through. The same for FtM, AIS, Intersex, Androgyne etc.

Do we understand each other and have a perception of what our lives are like?
Of course not.
In the larger community do people have any idea why someone prefers one political party to another? I doubt it. And it is proved very easily by opinion polling.

Does anyone know why someone prefers one sport team to another?

More importantly why do I like this skirt more than another one?

There may be answers but those answers will be in discussion.

This is also the crux of a support site.  " I'M RIGHT" ' no your are not' "YES I AM" goes on and that is why we moderate to the frustration of some and blessing of others.

So how do we get to understand how we feel about things?

Firstly we have to talk, and talk in a safe place where we can express ourselves.

"I disagree with this government!  BANG, not anymore you don't" Happens all around the world.

I want to know how you feel, What is your point of view? Hopefully it happens here.

How do we do that?

With dialogue and talking and posting and discussing.


To answer the OP question in a twisted way.  Do I know what it is like to be a man? No. But I know what it is like to live in a man's world. Do FtM know what it is like to be a man? No. But they know what it is like to live in a woman's world.

Will we ever find out? I hope so but we have to erase a lot of past learning patterns.

Hugs People

Cindy
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~RoadToTrista~

It seems to me that ftm's on here sometimes approach things differently. Like for example, if an mtf goes to the mtf forum and asks about female mannerisms, most of the posts will be about tips and practice for achieving them. If an ftm goes to the ftm forum and asks about male mannerisms, most of the posts will try to encourage the poster to accept their current mannerisms.
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Kevin Peña

Quote from: Casey on December 19, 2012, 02:38:09 AM
I think the furthest it has ever gone to me is genuinely wondering why anyone would be happy to have boobs or a vagina.

As a disclaimer, I have nothing against FTMs, in case anyone was thinking that. This ^^^ was much one of the aspects to my question.
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FTMDiaries

One thing I still don't understand is how anyone can look in a mirror and say "yeah, that's me right there!". I haven't been able to do that since 1976, when I first started to notice gender differences between boys & girls.

That feeling of being able to accept your body as simply being your body, rather than something that is alien to you, is a complete and utter mystery to me. I do sometimes wonder what it must feel like to be cisgendered.

Just as cisgendered people can find it difficult to understand what we're going through, I don't think I can understand their perspective either. But I hope to. :)





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michelle

MtoF and FtoM are part of the little ironies of life.   As a MtoF I find it hard to and difficult to be male even though I tried for a great deal of my life.   I am just female.   However I can understand how FtoM find it just as hard and difficult to be female because they feel that they just don't fit.   Being a female is no better than being a male and being a male is no better than being a female.    Being female is just more natural to me even thought I was born with a male's body.    Feeling and acting male is just more natural for some people born with a woman's body.   So what!!!   

The more effeminate I feel the better I feel about my life.   This doesn't necessarily make my life easier or settle all of my emotional problems, it just means that as a female I am better able to cope with life.    Emotionally my life makes more sense to me as a female.   In a way as I realize that in  general I was dealing with life emotionally as female while presenting as a male.   So I just didn't fit in. 

As to rather I really fit in now as a MtoF transgender that is open to question, but emotionally I know where I am coming from,  even if many people in my world do not accept me as a female.    They deal with the fact that I dress female and much of the time react to my world emotionally like a female.   I am now Michelle (Michael) because the legal world I deal with has me labeled as a male.   In my own mine I know that some women use the name Michael and I could pronounce it as Mishelle because ch can stand for /k/, /ch/, or /sh/.   

These are just the mental adjustments I make for myself at 66 years old with children and grandchildren and brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews who now see me as female on Facebook, but who have lived with my male presentation.

Can I understand what FtoM experience,  in broad outline yes.   It's the reverse of what I am going through.    Emotionally they thrive better as males and have to deal with the people around them as such.   I have to deal with other females knowing my body is basically different from theirs.    I am not interested in having sexual relationships with them as a male.    In what ever sexual relationships I have I am a woman.   I will never have male emotional sexual relationships.   In fact I probably never had male emotional relationships in any of my sexual encounters with other women.  Physically maybe yes, because of my male part, emotionally not really. 

Many FtoM are basically emotionally males.   Now some people maybe can switch between male and female emotional roles, but I can't.    Because everybody is emotionally unique all I can do is share myself in hopes that it helps increase understanding, that's all.   

For myself I am not a shapeshifter, nor am I a predator, so that when I am in what has been in what has been exclusively women's spaces,  I am just one more woman sharing that space and I respect the privacy and the desire for safety that any other woman does.    The truth is that in what space we share with others we have to accept that somebody may be lusting after us and seeking to exploit us sexually even to the point of physically assaulting us by some means or other.   On the other hand we just might be a turn off to everyone around us.    So what should it matter that I would rather share many activities with other females.   

Either that or public facilities will have to adopt to all gender varieties.   Maybe having male, female, and family or have more private spaces in locker rooms where people can shower, dress, and undress privately.    Children could have children's spaces and everyone who has been a parent and had to change diapers that withing families everyone these days are familiar with male and female genitals in non sexual situations.   In fact females who have the role of care takers, many from a very young age, have probably seen more male genitals, than boys who traditionally have never changed diapers have seen female genitals.   Now with more equality of the sexes.     Many boys and men are also having to change diapers these days.

All I am saying is that life is not all that simple in today's world as it was in the 1950s and 1960s when I was growing up.   It wasn't that simple then, but most of us didn't know that.

So on a general level MtoF I feel can kinda understand what FtoM are going to have to go through in diving into the male world.   And FtoM can kinda understand what MtoF are going to go through as females.   

Both changes involve struggles as does all of life,  its just as some of us deal better as females and others deal better as males.   This doesn't mean that all troubles disappear, but we are better suited to the context in which we deal with them.   



Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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FTMDiaries

There was one other thing I wanted to say in this thread, but I've been trying to figure out how to say it properly as there's a distinct possibility I'm talking out of my backside. So here goes...

Some (but not all) FtMs can be uber-sensitive to criticism and can display hair-trigger reactions to perceived slights. There's a very good reason for this: I believe it is due to our upbringing.

Male-born children are generally encouraged to assert themselves and behave in a dominant manner, so their whole upbringing is based on the premise of 'yes you can' as long as you're not too naughty. Female-born children are encouraged to suppress themselves and behave in a submissive manner, so our whole upbringing is based on the premise of 'no you can't' and don't you dare be naughty.  (Of course, this is an oversimplification, but it's generally true).

Apparently these behaviours are supposed to be natural for cisgendered people. Perhaps... but they're generally unnatural for many MtFs and FtMs alike.

People who were born female are, in Western society at least, indoctrinated to be submissive, to not speak out, to not even be allowed out of the house on our own because 'it's not safe for girls'. So we face a very restrictive upbringing. Granted, it is less restrictive than in some other parts of the world where females are truly second-class citizens, but the psychological effect is just as damaging.

So imagine how this affects FtMs? We can grow up naturally wanting to assert ourselves in exactly the same way as our brothers, but we're told that we're not allowed to enjoy the same freedom they have. We're pressurised to fit ourselves into the mould society has made for us and it hurts terribly to be oppressed in this way (as I'm sure you can understand). So when we finally acknowledge who we are and we decide to transition, some of us can be super-sensitive to any perception of the oppression we experienced whilst growing up as 'girls'. Indeed, part of our transition process is to shrug off the shackles of this oppression (much of which is internalised) so that we can assert ourselves as men. Figuring out that 'yes we can' and that nobody has the right to tell us that we're not allowed to do things anymore is very liberating but it takes time to go through this process. This can sometimes lead to hot-tempered knee-jerk reactions when we lash out at people who we perceive are trying to 'put us in our place' as they used to in the bad old days. Of course, not all FtMs react in this way, but it is a definite trend that I have noticed in various places, so it's worth having it in the back of your mind if you comment on an FtM-specific post.

I have heard some MtFs talk about pretty much the opposite: they discovered after transitioning that as women they no longer had the same type of freedom they were used to whilst growing up as 'boys'. Society is a funny old thing, isn't it?

But the one thing MtFs and FtMs have in common is this: we're all square pegs trying to shake off a lifetime's indoctrination of being hammered to fit into the wrong round hole.

Ugh. I hope this makes sense.

Your mileage may differ.





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aleon515

FTM diaries-- excellent post! Explains a lot imo.

I have another comment on the kind of post I dislike-- I haven't seen it here in awhile but saw over at laura's today. MTF writes on FTm board--"I hate testosterone". Yeah well you are an MTF of course you hate it. Not really useful though on a post questioning some method of T delivery. I'm not offended by this sort of thing but think it is silly.


--Jay
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