Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

[Saffron]

Even being pre-everything my female friends treat me just like any girl. Before coming out my friends were already very confident.

My male friends didn't have any problem.

I'm proud of my friends, I've always keep the list small, but full of quality


A friend that treats you bad is a false friend. Better to say goodbye.

[Alainaluvsu]

I'd like to point out that gay men are included in womens circles too. It's not a physically passing thing, or even a girls only thing, it's a trust thing.  Now if you don't pass then you're probably not going to be asked to go Even for me (and this may sound off), if a trans girl doesn't act feminine in any kind of way I'm not going to talk to her about things I normally talk to girls about. It's not that I'm prejudiced, it's more of a "well she probably doesn't wanna hear this anyways" kinda thing. That's not to say I won't offer advice to a trans girl if she asks for it...

My ex sister in law never accepted me as one of the girls until I transitioned and saw my brother, 5 months after I transitioned. Once I saw him, all of a sudden she's been completely "you're the girl you were always meant to be"... yet we haven't even seen each other since I transitioned.  Honestly I think she got the hint from my sister and my brother that I'm the real deal and not just some dude in a dress.

Guys on the other hand can be extremely homophobic and if they know you are trans have a harder time seeing past this fact when they are in a group. I have discovered when you are one on one without other people around, they act differently. I guess they don't want anyone to think they are gay or something? Who knows what they are thinking.

The other thing I have found is many women are shallow and don't like any woman who are more attractive than they are. Don't confuse this with not "Being one of the girls".

I haven't really experienced that much with men. Even the men that know hold doors open for me and smile politely at me. They may not make a move on me but I don't really see that as homophobic, just that I'm not their type. It's harder for them to turn the pronouns around when they knew you before though... but every guy I've had to correct apologized and does try. Even my brother, a big ol macho body builder that used to make fun of gay guys with me before he knew, calls me his sister, she, her and slips up even less than my mother. I think with men, the visual aspect is MUCH more important.

And girl, don't I know that girls are shallow that way. I can't say how many times even I have looked at a girl and was like "I hate that bitch" just because she's prettier than me. What's weird is trans girls are different for me (and many cis gendered women as well I've seen). If a girl is trans and prettier than me, I'm jealous but I'm every bit as inclined to be her friend. One of my best girl friends even hated me until I told her I was trans. Her exact words were  "I didn't know who the f*** you were, all I knew was my gusband (gay hubby) brought some pretty girl over to my house. I thought you were stealing him!" ... she's a weird one though

[Stephe]

all I knew was my gusband (gay hubby) brought some pretty girl over to my house. I thought you were stealing him!" ... she's a weird one though

Been there (the couple are straight tho) and was outright accused of trying to steal her husband! O.o

On the guys being homophobic, I don't mean they won't hold doors etc, more like -some- are hesitant to give a hello hug or other times when a girl would touch a guy in any way other than a hand shake. I noticed this in my small church (most of them know my past) when we have "passing the peace" where we share hugs. I have found over time most have gotten over this.

There are so many little clues like how women sit extra close, touch your arm etc when talking to you. Things like this they would no do if they saw you as a guy.

[Alainaluvsu]

There are so many little clues like how women sit extra close, touch your arm etc when talking to you. Things like this they would no do if they saw you as a guy.

Yeah, like treat you like you're a nobody. Usually if you aren't passing they're much nicer... Strangers that is. When women are nice to me I always wonder if my shadow is showing or my voice broke or something. Being nice is not to be confused with making small talk like "My husband made me late because" ... it's more like "Heyyyyy!!"" *cheesy smile*

[Carlita]

Been there (the couple are straight tho) and was outright accused of trying to steal her husband! O.o

Hmmm ... just thinking about my best female friends ... Now I'm thinking about their husbands. Can I imagine wanting to steal a single one of them? Nope ... I definitely plead, 'Not guilty, sister!' 

[Eve87]

If they don't know you're trans - easily.
If they do know... it's different. Often there's some kind of polite acceptance but you can never be cis and never the same.

In my personal experience, it often seems to come down to experiencing that shared oppression of women in society. If you have the face the multitude of BS that routinely screws over ALL women, you get a ton of womanhood validity points. I can definitely understand that.

[O_O]

If they don't know you're trans - easily.
If they do know... it's different. Often there's some kind of polite acceptance but you can never be cis and never the same.

This is my experience also.

It is interesting because back when I first began transitioning I would have said that everyone accepted me as female but I would have been wrong because I was ignorant.  The truth was that I had been living as a male all my life so I didn't have a clue what it was like to be accepted as female.  I knew that people were generally okay with me so I just filled in the blanks and assumed they were accepting me as female.

After I had actually begun to pass as female I began to realize there was a huge difference between being accepted as trans and being accepted as female.  Gradually interactions became less superficial, I mean... I was sexually active and I had sex with guys who knew I was trans and they accepted me, often times in a sort of clinically detached manner like, "Oh and is that what passes for your clitioris?" (kinda way)  At first I thought the ultimate acceptance was having someone put their penis in me.  later by accident I had sex with someone who didn't know I had transitioned and it was a life changing experience.  An experience that actually caused me to begin to believe in myself.

And really if you think about it, what is the difference between an accomplished football player with years of discipline under his shoulder pads and some guy who just dresses up as a football player and mingles at parties in a football jersey.  Does someone who dresses up as a football player (who has never played a day of football in his life) and goes around dressed like that... does he believe in himself as being a professional athlete?

I would say, "No, he does not."

Because our ideas about ourselves are a byproduct of our experiences.  People who talk about being STEALTH are experienced at "passing as their target gender".  But they haven't had any experiences that have changed their belief about themselves.  People who talk about how you always have to tell everyone who might be romantically interested in you or any "true" friends that you transitioned are speaking from their own experience, one that is lacking in authenticity, therefore such a person does not believe in him or herself as being their true gender and often feels guilty or like a confession is always warranted.  Conversely they will come to despise being seen as their target gender (when it seems unobtainable) and will instead talk about trans shame and how anyone who is comfortable as their true sex is suffering from trans shame.  See Aesop's Fables and the Fox and the Grapes or Cognitive Dissonance.

But it is like the Matrix (from the movie, 'The Matrix'.  No one can tell you what it is.  You can't communicate an experience or the life-changing effects of an experience with words.  It is something one has to experience for him or her self.  And often times people insulate themselves from having any experiences like that by introducing themselves as what they believe themselves to be, (or by remaining enmeshed in the past, same friends, same coworkers, same partner...) thus they are regarded as what they have confessed about themselves and those opportunities are missed, their ideas about what they are become circular, self-fulfilling prophecies.  They begin to redefine the experience of being female or male from their own perspective as a way of coping with what would otherwise be dissonance.  Perhaps some people don't care.  Obviously different people transition for different reasons.

Anyway, it is a life ahead of you or life behind you kinda thing also.  If you feel like everything important you have ever done is behind you instead of ahead of you and if the past occupies most of your thinking then the present will most likely continue to be an extension of the past.

Of course this is just my own observations and opinions and I am sure it only translates when others can relate from similar experiences but I agree that when one is perceived as his or her true sex and is comfortable in that situation then that M2F can just be one of the girls or that F2M can just be one of the boys.

[Carlita]

This is my experience also.

It is interesting because back when I first began transitioning I would have said that everyone accepted me as female but I would have been wrong because I was ignorant.  The truth was that I had been living as a male all my life so I didn't have a clue what it was like to be accepted as female.  I knew that people were generally okay with me so I just filled in the blanks and assumed they were accepting me as female.

After I had actually begun to pass as female I began to realize there was a huge difference between being accepted as trans and being accepted as female.  Gradually interactions became less superficial, I mean... I was sexually active and I had sex with guys who knew I was trans and they accepted me, often times in a sort of clinically detached manner like, "Oh and is that what passes for your clitioris?" (kinda way)  At first I thought the ultimate acceptance was having someone put their penis in me.  later by accident I had sex with someone who didn't know I had transitioned and it was a life changing experience.  An experience that actually caused me to begin to believe in myself.

And really if you think about it, what is the difference between an accomplished football player with years of discipline under his shoulder pads and some guy who just dresses up as a football player and mingles at parties in a football jersey.  Does someone who dresses up as a football player (who has never played a day of football in his life) and goes around dressed like that... does he believe in himself as being a professional athlete?

I would say, "No, he does not."

Because our ideas about ourselves are a byproduct of our experiences.  People who talk about being STEALTH are experienced at "passing as their target gender".  But they haven't had any experiences that have changed their belief about themselves.  People who talk about how you always have to tell everyone who might be romantically interested in you or any "true" friends that you transitioned are speaking from their own experience, one that is lacking in authenticity, therefore such a person does not believe in him or herself as being their true gender and often feels guilty or like a confession is always warranted.  Conversely they will come to despise being seen as their target gender (when it seems unobtainable) and will instead talk about trans shame and how anyone who is comfortable as their true sex is suffering from trans shame.  See Aesop's Fables and the Fox and the Grapes or Cognitive Dissonance.

But it is like the Matrix (from the movie, 'The Matrix'.  No one can tell you what it is.  You can't communicate an experience or the life-changing effects of an experience with words.  It is something one has to experience for him or her self.  And often times people insulate themselves from having any experiences like that by introducing themselves as what they believe themselves to be, thus they are regarded as what they have confessed about themselves and those opportunities are missed, their ideas about what they are become circular, self-fulfilling prophecies.

Anyway, it is a life ahead of you or life behind you kinda thing also.  If you feel like everything important you have ever done is behind you instead of ahead of you and if the past occupies most of your thinking then the present will most likely be a continuation of the past.

Of course this is just my own observations and opinions and I am sure it only translates when others can relate from similar experiences but I agree that when one is perceived as his or her true sex and is comfortable in that situation then that M2F can just be one of the girls or that F2M can just be one of the boys.

That is SUCH an interesting and insightful perspective. It's really given me something to think about ...

... as have all you ladies who are sharing your experiences. It's so great to have a place where something that matters to you - something that no one who doesn't share our condition could possibly understand - can be discussed. It makes SUCH a difference to hear from people who REALLY know what they're talking about xx

[O_O]

And I just finished modifying it, again O_o  But I am seriously done this time ^_^

Thank you.

[Kelly J. P.]

 It's entirely feasible for a trans-woman to be "one of the girls". It happens every day, and it's really quite common... Whether it happens or not depends on a few different factors. Physical passability is one, and those who don't pass will have a harder time fitting in so seamlessly. The character of the women you want to hang out with is another major consideration, because if you don't pass... how insightful, accepting, intuitive, or compassionate they are will determine how you are treated.

The ultimate decider, though, is how well your own character resonates with theirs. If they see that who you are as a person is female, by their own standards, that will hugely affect how they treat you. Usually, this alone - in the right degree - will cause that true level of acceptance.

It's all about how they see your soul. The second-biggest factor in how acceptance is made is likely to be your voice, since one's voice is often perceived as a physical reflection of one's soul. This is most apparently portrayed in movies and video games, where possession is possible. The demon, or whatever else, can take over a person's body... and if the difference in how the body behaves and acts is somehow not clue enough, the voice decides.

So, a person with a good voice and feminine personality will be difficult to not accept in personal encounters.

In casual encounters with people, though, how the body appears will still be the primary decision-maker in how one will accept someone. Every part of transition is significant, but the significance of each part is variable based on the scenario.

My thoughts.

[Carlita]

That's kind of what I meant when I talked earlier about 'emotional passability' - coming across as empathetic and female in ones' character ... and I agree, ones voice is really important to that.

[Stephe]

The ultimate decider, though, is how well your own character resonates with theirs. If they see that who you are as a person is female, by their own standards, that will hugely affect how they treat you. Usually, this alone - in the right degree - will cause that true level of acceptance.

It's all about how they see your soul. The second-biggest factor in how acceptance is made is likely to be your voice, since one's voice is often perceived as a physical reflection of one's soul. This is most apparently portrayed in movies and video games, where possession is possible. The demon, or whatever else, can take over a person's body... and if the difference in how the body behaves and acts is somehow not clue enough, the voice decides.

So, a person with a good voice and feminine personality will be difficult to not accept in personal encounters.

+1 for this. Even if people "know" (I transitioned in place) if they can look in your eyes and see woman + your voice is female, most then usually will accept "Yes this is a woman". As I said, I have been in with groups of women (that I had never met) for hours where I was clearly passing (their reaction when they were later told shows this) and being around these same women later and how I was treated was absolutely no different.  I do believe part of this is related to living full time as a woman for a while. It probably has a lot to do with how open minded the women are as well. Most of my friends are very open minded people. But I honestly don't believe being totally stealth is a prerequisite to being accepted as "one of the girls".

And I don't agree with O_O post at all about all people who aren't stealth are "sour grapes" etc. Just because I don't live in fear of someone finding out my past doesn't mean "Conversely they will come to despise being seen as their target gender". It just means I am OK with who I am. Clearly I'd just as soon they not know and don't go around with a sign on my back either. I don't walk into a group of people I've never met and introduce myself as -Hi, I'm Stephe and I'm transgendered-. I have had the " experiences that have changed their belief about themselves" and know I am a woman.

Maybe for some people they have to be stealth to feel that way? But please don't tell me how I feel about myself and I won't tell you how to live your life.

[pretty pauline]

I'd say yes. It's normal/possible to be accepted as "one of the girls" I get invited to hen nights, shoe shopping, lunches all the typically "female" things that girls do together.

Thats my experience, Im now totally ''one of the girls'' but I am stealt, when I got married 2years ago, I had about 20girls at my hen night, we drank cocktails, we giggled, we discussed my wedding dress and my big day, and what color nightie and knickers I would wear on my wedding night, first night as a married woman, and not a man in sight. It was totally girly night, we hugged and kissed when it was all over, guys would just never do that. But its normal for girls.

[Alainaluvsu]

Maybe for some people they have to be stealth to feel that way? But please don't tell me how I feel about myself and I won't tell you how to live your life.

I agree completely. I wouldn't go so far as to say I like being trans, because I don't - but I'm comfortable enough with myself and confident enough with who I am to be able to tell people I am trans if I want. I'm not ashamed of where I came from - in fact I'm pretty proud of myself. Not a whole lot of people can live as the opposite sex so seemlessly, and I'm confident enough that the people who aren't shallow will accept me as female. How is it in order to be happy with my target gender, I have to hide my past? I've lived nearly 30 years as a male so living as one is a huge part of my experiences with life.

Plus I'd rather just be flat out honest with people. Anybody who is proud of themselves and who doesn't regret their decisions will have no problem discussing them. It's the ones that make up lie after lie about themselves that are ashamed of themselves.

And for the record I'm happier than I ever have been living as a girl. Every day since I hit puberty I've had a suicidal thought, until about a week into HRT. Now that I'm full time I have NOTHING to hide. My personality is no longer suppressed. Heck, with my friends, I'll go so far as to joke about my gender identity. I am just that comfortable with myself

Being trans does suck, but at least we all get to experience things nobody, and I mean nobody gets to experience first hand. I think my knowledge of how the world works due to living as a male, and then as a female is valuable to the world.

I'll also add that I'm stealth in casual contact and will remain stealth at work as long as possible. But with friends and in relationships, I'll be up front and honest with people because friends, family, and lovers deserve that much in my opinion.

[mintra]

I'll also add that I'm stealth in casual contact and will remain stealth at work as long as possible. But with friends and in relationships, I'll be up front and honest with people because friends, family, and lovers deserve that much in my opinion.

Same here. I'm a normal lady in my daily life, no one needs to know my business. But when it come to people whom I have emotional connection with, I never hide the fact that I'm trans...

[Annah]

Same here. I'm a normal lady in my daily life, no one needs to know my business. But when it come to people whom I have emotional connection with, I never hide the fact that I'm trans...

agreed. When it comes to dating that is the only time I am not in stealth. I just do not think it's right to not share that big of a past with someone I am involved with sexually. Just my opinion tho

[peky]

Yeah, I am one of the girls not only with the girls but also with the boys.

So, when I enter the room with only boys on it, they suddenly they  go silent and change the conversation! I am like, yeah, I know what they were talking about. And this boys knew me pre transition!!!

[Kevin Peña]

On the other hand, women are also much more supportive, more thoughtful, more active in maintaining relationships and more fun to be around. So that's why it matters so much to me to be considered part of that female-only club ...

Wait, so are women catty or are they supportive? Make up your mind, woman! 

I for one wholeheartedly believe that people can accept you as one of the girls. However, in my case, I don't anywhere nearly pass yet, so they treat me more like their gay guy friend. I go shopping sometimes, and women even ask me for opinions about their wardrobes.

However, sometimes I think women are annoying. I don't want to hear about their boyfriends (mostly griping or talking some lovey-dovey nonsense), their makeup (I never want to touch the stuff), or their petty girl-on-girl quarrels. When I hear that stuff, it feels like my ears will start bleeding. I do enjoy the benefits of girl time, though.

PS--> I think that guys are more fun. Then again, I'm a video-game-playing, science-talking, comic book-reading nerd girl. 

[Kadri]

My best girlfriend started talking to me about period pains or something, and half way through she recalled I still had a penis at that time. I think that counts.

My experience is that women in Australia have treated me as one of the girls since I started passing, or maybe not....I don't know; I went and had a whole lot of girl talk with people who I had never met me before, can't tell if I was passing or simply a fun person to talk to who was not a threat. Anyway, i felt pretty much like one of the girls. I didn't mention anything about being trans. Sometimes i will ask "you know about me, right?" But still no change. Guess i'm just lucky with where I live. 

[mementomori]

to be onhest it actually really irks me when i hear people say stuff like " im going for a night out with the boy " or " im going for a night out with the girls " . its shows how heteronormative society is , i personally don't choose friends on the basis of if they genitals are internal or external