What is female masculinity?

[Nero]

What is female masculinity? (You can tell this video panel and discussion intrigued me  )

Is it this?



This?




How about this?



Is it different from 'male' masculinity?


If you consider yourself a masculine female, what does it mean to you? Is it just a matter of working on cars, playing ball, or topping during sex? Or do you consider it a part of your identity?
Have you ever considered yourself a masculine female, but don't now?
Or do you just love or date masculine women? If so, what does that mean to you?

What about female masculinity in trans women? Do you think it's the same for masculine trans women as masculine cis women? Or is it different? If you're a masculine trans woman, is there a difference in how this manifests than masculinity as male?

[Kevin Peña]

Well, that's impossible. You can't have female masculinity. 

You can, however, have a badass female (that first picture with the archer). 

[Arch]

Well, that's impossible. You can't have female masculinity. 

Why not?

[Kevin Peña]

Well, when I hear "female masculinity," I think of someone saying something like "bright darkness." 

[Kelly J. P.]

 I feel that female masculinity is when a female is unafraid of enjoying something that is viewed as masculine. What this is varies significantly, depending on your perspective, your community's perspective, and your society's perspective. For some, it is found in a woman wearing pants. For others, it may be found in a woman spending a night on the town and "picking up chicks". There is no universal answer to what female masculinity is. It includes what a female does (interests), and how a female does it (behaviour/mannerisms).

I would be hesitant to refer myself as a masculine female. There is some masculinity in me, without doubt, and some femininity as well... but neither of these things really define me - they're just parts of my personality. It is my belief that we all have some degree of both masculinity and femininity, and I would say that this belief was fact if I believed I wouldn't get jumped on for stating an absolute.

Masculinity in trans women can be different from masculinity in cis women, though. We have the potential to be more masculine than cis women can be, for a few different reasons. One is that we usually have a male voice that we have to change - and we don't always change it sufficiently, or at all. Many of us have very typically masculine mannerisms, in how we move, speak, and behave. Perhaps it's the socialization, the testosterone, or the fact that our brains may not be the same as those of cis women's, but it's a reality. It could also be that our often more masculine skeletal structure makes typically masculine movements more comfortable.

In any case, trans women are more susceptible to being perceived as masculine in more ways than a picture can tell. Cis women display these sorts of masculine mannerisms significantly less often. Perhaps related, trans women are also lesbians far more often than cis women are.

Much of the time, the masculinity a trans woman possesses is very male-like.

The difference between trans women who are male-like and female-like is unknown to me, though. I'm not sure why some have a masculine masculinity/femininity, and others have a feminine masculinity/femininity. In any case, I see it as unimportant - individuals have a right to be individuals, and what is done doesn't matter so long as one does not hurt anyone while doing it.

Hopefully, scientific research will one day be able provide some answers and clear up the mystery of the mental differences between trans women, cis women, trans men, and cis men.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Well, that's impossible. You can't have female masculinity

That's the opposite of male femininity 

[Kevin Peña]

I don't think you can have male femininity, either. 

Could you be a person with traits traditionally associated with the other gender? Sure, but you're still what you are. 

[Kelly J. P.]

I don't think you can have male femininity, either. 

Could you be a person with traits traditionally associated with the other gender? Sure, but you're still what you are. 

Perhaps you're taking it too physically. Some men certainly speak more femininely than others - their pitch may be just as deep, and they may resonate as strongly as other males, but the way they express their words can still sound feminine. The way they move, handle themselves, and treat others can be feminine as well. They may have feminine interests, or a feminine presentation.

Usually, men with the above qualities are seen as gay.

The reverse applies to masculinity in females.

[Elspeth]

Usually, men with the above qualities are seen as gay.

The reverse applies to masculinity in females.

Both terms are common in some of the academic books I've read that try to explore cross-cultural approaches that deal with various forms of gender non-conformity. One can deny them for whatever reasons one might want to, but the fact remains that they are terms in use out there, especially in gay, GLBTQ and/or queer studies academia, at the very least. I'm sure they're also hotly discussed on Tumblr within various affinity groups, with varying results, depending on where one looks.

I can think of at least three books I could find in my apartment in under three minutes that use these terms.

[Elsa]

Well isn't tomboy another way of saying girl who is not afraid to show masculine traits and enjoy typically male activities?

That's kinda the same as a female masculinity although not as technical.

[Kelly J. P.]

Well isn't tomboy another way of saying girl who is not afraid to show masculine traits and enjoy typically male activities?

That's kinda the same as a female masculinity although not as technical.

A tomboy would have a lot of female masculinity. My sister certainly has boatloads of it - I think it makes her a lot more fun to be around, myself. Tomboys rock.

Both terms are common in some of the academic books I've read that try to explore cross-cultural approaches that deal with various forms of gender non-conformity. One can deny them for whatever reasons one might want to, but the fact remains that they are terms in use out there, especially in gay, GLBTQ and/or queer studies academia, at the very least. I'm sure they're also hotly discussed on Tumblr within various affinity groups, with varying results, depending on where one looks.

I can think of at least three books I could find in my apartment in under three minutes that use these terms.

Which terms? Male femininity and female masculinity? I think I'm missing something, here, especially since you seem to be saying that I'm denying these terms [in that post]. I'm thinking you quoted the wrong person?

[Elspeth]

Well isn't tomboy another way of saying girl who is not afraid to show masculine traits and enjoy typically male activities?

That's kinda the same as a female masculinity although not as technical.

Yes. My understanding is that "female masculinity" is a preferred term by academics because it covers a lot of different forms of atypical expression by female-bodied people. Most of them would probably include F2M transsexuals as an example too (and yes, I know that may rankle those, like my son, who are F2M).

It is also used to try to avoid the value judgments that are implicit in terms like "effeminacy" which would be one form of "male femininity."

The intent, at least, of contemporary academics in gender studies does tend to be to identify and screen out as much of the bias as they can recognize in how these topics have been treated in the past. Neutral language is one way of trying to screen out the cultural noise that goes along with examining something that can push buttons for at least some people in a culture that regulates itself (at least in part) by maintaining that binary gender paradigm. There are almost certainly biases that still manage to slip through the cracks in some of these studies and essays.

[Elspeth]

Which terms? Male femininity and female masculinity? I think I'm missing something, here, especially since you seem to be saying that I'm denying these terms [in that post]. I'm thinking you quoted the wrong person?

While I quoted your bit of the thread, my comments were more directed at Diana's seeming dismissal of the terms.

I didn't see anything in what you wrote that was a value judgement about either term. I think I clarified this in my last post, so I'll avoid repeating myself unless you want to have me try to clarify further?

[Kelly J. P.]

While I quoted your bit of the thread, my comments were more directed at Diana's seeming dismissal of the terms.

I didn't see anything in what you wrote that was a value judgement about either term. I think I clarified this in my last post, so I'll avoid repeating myself unless you want to have me try to clarify further?

I was just left a bit confused is all. Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure about what you meant in quoting me.

[DriftingCrow]

I used to consider myself a masculine female, but then I realized I was just a guy. I think a "masculine female" is just a female (whether trans or cis) who just does what she wants, even if it's something that females are generally not supposed to do, such as work on cars, dress "manly", etc. It would vary from culture to culture. I think just having a few things that are "masculine" wouldn't necessarily make someone a masculine female, I think it's alot of factors that might be something close to a 50/50 split between the so-called feminine and so-called masculine traits.

Though when anyone says "female masculinity" I always instantly think of the famous kiss scene in Morocco:

[Nero]

I used to consider myself a masculine female, but then I realized I was just a guy. I think a "masculine female" is just a female (whether trans or cis) who just does what she wants, even if it's something that females are generally not supposed to do, such as work on cars, dress "manly", etc. It would vary from culture to culture. I think just having a few things that are "masculine" wouldn't necessarily make someone a masculine female, I think it's alot of factors that might be something close to a 50/50 split between the so-called feminine and so-called masculine traits.

Though when anyone says "female masculinity" I always instantly think of the famous kiss scene in Morocco:

That kiss, that whole scene was adorable! Was that pre-code? Kiss was short but you know.
Yeah, you touch on a good point about a 50/50 split. Even if she had an equal amount of feminine traits, the masculine ones would stand out and 'define her' more.

[peky]

Female masculine is a sociological construct. Mostly a myth in the cis-world, and a reality or a pseudo-perception on the FTM world.

Kind like the male femininity of MTF. I was "bath" in T for many decades, indoctrinated and forced to fulfill male roles. Now, despite having a female brain and be on HRT, I still display traits and behaviors that have been stereotypically ascribe to males, enhance my "female masculinity" construct.

[DriftingCrow]

That kiss, that whole scene was adorable! Was that pre-code? Kiss was short but you know.
Yeah, you touch on a good point about a 50/50 split. Even if she had an equal amount of feminine traits, the masculine ones would stand out and 'define her' more.

I love that scene, my film teacher told us that was the first ever lesbian kiss on film. I was censored in some countries. It was released in 1930.

[Elspeth]

I love that scene, my film teacher told us that was the first ever lesbian kiss on film. I was censored in some countries. It was released in 1930.

And the Hays Code began in 1930, but wasn't enforced rigorously until 1934.

[Nygeel]

I think female masculinity is all in self identity. Masculinity by itself is very cultural. What one culture believes is feminine, another believes it's masculine. Plus, it's individual as a person might "present" in a way that they don't identify with for whatever reason.

Edit to add: I don't think trans men express female masculinity. I don't think trans women express mmale femininity. It can be the other way around.