Height affected by Hormones? Possible or no?

[Heather]

Wow who would have thought a thread about height and hormones could cause such controversy. Is it really all that serious.

[Alainaluvsu]

Wow who would have thought a thread about height and hormones could cause such controversy. Is it really all that serious.

Apparently. We better not give our experiences on here if they aren't scientifically backed. Otherwise we might give false hope. So be careful about what you say on this support site because if you can't back them up, others might get angry and call you a silly little liar!!!

[Dahlia]

Well, I'm not an expert... but if they're looking at bone density, do they really care about cartilage?

Yes, especially the cartilage between the spinal discs....for obvious reasons.

Does osteoporosis affect your joints(cartilage+muscle), or even height, doesn't it just make your bones brittle?

It affects the lower spinal discs and hips, making the bone brittle causing the bone to shrink and sag...thus making one shrink in height.

Then why are peoples feet shrinking?

They don't. Because the feet carry the full bodyweight making them 'spread' and grow at least one shoesize over the years/decades.
How on earth could feet shrink up to 2 shoesizes in such a short time while walking and standing on them? You'd wind up crippled IF this were true!

And, so, why aren't the hands of the 'shrinking claimants'  shrinking then?

You sound very ignorant... Do you think that everyone who says their feet has shrunk are lying, without having evidence of why they absolutely can't shrink?

If they can provide me with evidence of 'shrinking' instead of only claiming...without mentioning shrinking hands and toenail width.....

I consider stories like 'I've shrunken 5cm in height and my shoesize decreased 2 sizes in 15 months on HRT' as one of the  internet (urban) folktales of the MTF community.

[muuu]

.

[Shawn Sunshine]

If you have fat and wide feet, would not the hrt help to make feet thinner? Most women have thinner feet than men.

[Dahlia]

Are those effects of osteoporosis permanent, like the height difference?

Yes, it's irreversible.

Shoes would be evidence for showing that their feet have shrunk.

Yes, sure. I can buy myself some pairs of size 44 shoes, break them in while wearing 4 pairs of thick socks and then claim my feet have shrunk to a size 42.....showing all shoes in different sizes.

How would your feet grow? Your bones won't change, they've fused already. If it's about muscle and fat, then I think that could explain why their feet supposedly have shrunk.

That's about muscles, fat, ligaments etc.
Most cis people wear a bigger shoesize in, let's say, their late forties than in their early twenties...because standing and walking on your feet makes them spread...the bones don't grow, the rest in between just spreads over the years.
Weight gain also plays a role.

Not really unlogical considering bodyweight, gravity and aging eh?

Oh, and think about (heavily) pregnant women....full of hormones and no shrinking but growing feet.

[muuu]

.

[sandrauk]

Well I don't know why I'm bothering, I've been trying to avoid this thread after the last one, but, my hands have also shrunk.

I had no evidence last time but I can  now remove three rings which have been stuck on for 5+ years. I could explain this away as less swelling through lack of use (not that I have) but I could see how a labourer's hands would grow.

However, I have been unable  to wear female bracelets at any time before and am now able to wear them, My wrists were always 7.5"+ now they are 7".

I'm also able to do up the zip on boots much, much easier, I was always in danger of trapping skin there but not now.

Dahlia, you do no-one, including yourself, any favours. The correct response would be to ask why everyone does not get these effects (if they want them) and perhaps moving knowledge forward.

Just FYI it didn't take months for the feet in my case, it was about five weeks. I  think the hands have taken longer. 

[Dahlia]

Why would they wear 4 pairs of thick socks to wear bigger shoes? ...those shoes are from their "previous life".

I can show several pairs size 41 shoes while trying them on from 'my previous smaller shoesize life' a couple of years ago that don't fit anymore in my present bigger shoesize life.
I wear size 42 nowadays.

[Elsa]

It's definitely possible but not proved.

A lot of MTFs do say that they have lost height - with either both in perception of height as well as actual height and sometimes either...

But then that's not always the case...

For some of us if taken early - it could have a growth effect on us.

Like with a lot of things about being a woman  - E doesn't always produce the same results in each person - sometimes it's just plain luck.

[muuu]

.

[Dahlia]

For some of us if taken early - it could have a growth effect on us.

Yes, and that has been proven by medical science.

[blueconstancy]

All I can say is that I *didn't* believe the foot-shrinking thing. I thought it was all wishful thinking (although I was too polite to actually say so outside of my own head).

Now my wife has several pairs of shoes, not just her combat boots from pre-HRT but ones I was there when she tried on and they were almost too tight at the beginning of HRT... and they're all too big. I actually wish I'd been right, since that's a lot of money spent on shoes neither of us can wear. Furthermore, she went from fitting in shoes a size and a half bigger than mine to ones a half-size bigger (and my feet haven't changed size for the larger yet).

As for the height thing, it IS scientifically documented that people "change" height by a bit over the course of a single day, as standing upright and gravity compress things a bit. It is not yet established that the same happens on HRT, but the theories that minor changes in cartilage and posture can affect measured height and/or apparent spinal length are at least plausible based on these studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1545095/pdf/archdisch00801-0068.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687010001171
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1888420/
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/Spinal_Elongation.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430497
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23256357
http://www.humanics-es.com/stadiometer_cites.htm
http://www.haworth.com/en-us/knowledge/workplace-library/Documents/Effects%20of%20Sit-Stand%20Schedule%20on%20Spinal%20Shrinkage%20in%20VDT%20Operators.pdf

[Nicolette]

Like with a lot of things about being a woman  - E doesn't always produce the same results in each person - sometimes it's just plain luck.

Probably best to replace luck with chance. Some of us may not want shrink or become short and stocky. 

[AlexisB]

In my opinion if someone says they shrunk on HRT, and especially those who have been measured ect by professionals, then who are you to call them liars?

[Dahlia]

In my opinion if someone says they shrunk on HRT, and especially those who have been measured ect by professionals, then who are you to call them liars?

Well, the professionals were totally amazed seeing someone shrink 5cm's in height and  seeing her shoesize increase 2 sizes in only 15 months on HRT....without any complaints about pain or spinal problems.... or walking without problems or a limp.....because feet that shrink 2 sizes will create walking and balance problems....well, of course they started looking for medical reports on shrinking height and shoesize on HRT in a short time...

BUT....they couldn't find  any medical or scientific reports about this fenomenon.....because there aren't any.

Lots and lots of other stuff about MTF HRT but sadly nothing about shrinking in height and shrinking feet.

And for some reason the professionals witnessing this very interesting fenomenon in rather many MTF don't have time to do research and data or....they're not interested?

In something that could be world shocking news because it could mean a lot for let's say, people with giant growth or unusually tall people etcetc.
Maybe indifference? I can't imagine, to such an important discovery!

Well, IF there were any such medical reports or data they would have been posted here, in this very topic, some 15 posts ago.

BTW: have you heard about  Santaclaus creating a colony of garden gnomes on the moon? Not a case of wild imagination, Rudolf told me himself! 

[blueconstancy]

Dahlia, I can't help noticing that you aren't addressing the scientific studies I *did* find, which indicate that people can lose up to 3% of their height under the influence of gravity (that's the NASA one), or others saying around 0.7 cm in a single day, all without evidence of injury. Presumably, if the cartilage in the spine is compressible to some degree - as these studies demonstrate fairly conclusively - then a gradual and minor alteration of it could reduce height noticeably with no symptoms. Similarly, a tendency towards slightly more spinal curvature and/or hip-tilted posture could easily account for 3 cm or more when being measured by a professional who doesn't require that the person strain to achieve the maximum possible upward flexion.

(I'm 65 inches tall. 3% loss would be around 2 inches, or about 4.7 cm. And that's a perfectly normal side effect of gravity in ONE DAY.)

Again, nothing conclusive about HRT, but it's clear that spinal compression *does* cause height changes, and furthermore that there has to be a margin of error in measurement using less precise methods than were cited in some of these studies. (I wonder if medical professionals are more likely to under-measure people perceived as female and vice versa, too? Now *there* is a study that someone ought to do.)

[AlexisB]

Regardless if they are "amazed" or not, if the results of facts, the facts are that months ago they were 6'1 and now they're 5'11, are right in front of them, then whats the debate?

[Heather]

Apparently. We better not give our experiences on here if they aren't scientifically backed. Otherwise we might give false hope. So be careful about what you say on this support site because if you can't back them up, others might get angry and call you a silly little liar!!!

Well look on the bright side. I wish somebody would call me a silly little liar! But at my height that would be a lie. But for what its worth I hope your right I would like to drop a few inches.

[EmmaS]

I'm still struggling to see your point regarding how there are a myriad of MtF individuals who have definitely become shorter. I have read weak rebuttals and senseless arguing without giving a valid point, besides trying to argue that it's their perception which doesn't make any sense because they are not comparing themselves in the mirror concerning height but by are actually measuring their height and comparing the numbers. I don't doubt you are a really smart person and you may even be correct, there may not be any correlation between transitioning and height but there seem to be enough cases for it to be a possibility. I have seen my own height change and I didn't expect it to, but the nurse clearly told me my height which wasn't the same height as 4 months ago which was right before I started taking hormones. So since there isn't a clear scientific answer to this question, I am more inclined to believe the opinions/experiences of many instead of the experiences of one. That's how I view it at least, it's really hard for me to believe that so many of us are delusional (including myself).