Curious about being trans -v- being gay....

[Beth Andrea]

Ok, one of the first questions people ask when they find I'm trans is "Are you going to get the surgery?" "So...are you gay, or what?"

Now, nevermind the various answers we could give them...consider the gravity of the thought:


1. If I am "straight" (i.e., I prefer women), as I transition, will I keep my preference for women (making me lesbian);
2. If I am "gay" (i.e., prefer men), as I transition, will I keep my preference for men (making me straight)
3. But, if I am straight, as I transition, will I keep my "straightness", and change my preference to men?
4. Or, if I am gay, will I lose my faboolus desires, and start to prefer women?
5. And if I am bi, will my dominant preference change in like manner?


That is the basic framework of this thread...is "preference" (man or woman as partner) changeable via HRT, or is "orientation" (gay or straight) changeable via HRT?

One cannot simply "stay" one or the other...because that will change the other word-label we use to communicate. If you stay "gay", then your partner(s) will change...if you keep your preference for a particular gender, then your orientation will change.

I'm sure everyone here will say they are one, or the other...so I'm not really looking for a vote on how HRT affects us...but I am interested in knowing the Hive Minds' thoughts on which is more...umm...superficial? (sorry, lack of a better phrase).

Will a formerly gay TS have more of a struggle accepting the (previously) non-desired partner's gender, or will a formerly straight partner have more of a struggle accepting the (previously) non-desired partner's gender? Or do you think it'll depend on the person, and how they choose to see things?

I was just thinking random stuff today, and one thought-stream boiled down to the flexibility of the terms we use for these things...

Peace, and please be considerate.

[eli77]

I guess I don't see it that way? My first relationship was after I knew exactly what I was, and she knew exactly what I was. My first sexual and romantic inclinations are pretty tied up in my dysphoria and my body and ya... it's a mess. I knew I was attracted to the female-ish spectrum, but as far as I was concerned I was planning to never have a relationship with anyone ever because I was broken. It was only after I found out about transsexualism and whatnot that I shifted that perception. So... I dunno.

I think I see it different because of that. Folks aren't straight until they are gay. They are closeted-gay until they are gay. I was closeted-gay until I was gay.

[kelly_aus]

I lived as a gay man for most of my life, so I went in to transition thinking I was a hetero woman - I must have been, I'd spent so long chasing men..

Then, about 18 months in to my transition, I fell in love - with another woman. This caused me to do some introspection, which made me realise that I had never loved a man. Seems I'm a lesbian - and always have been..

[Elspeth]

I've identified as bi for most of my adult life, since my teens (and before I'd had sex with anyone), but with a fairly strong emotional leaning towards women.  I don't really see that changing post-transition, but I remain ready for surprises.

Aside from the linguistic tangles, I'm not sure I understand what it is you want to hear? 

I have had some questions to myself, lately, about this, partly the result of one unfortunate encounter with a long-time friend who decided to come onto me -- I've mentioned this in past threads probably a bit more than anyone cares to hear about.  For me, despite the fact that I've had one more male partner than I've had female partners (if we only count sex and not dating), I do realize that at least some of my past preference for women as preferred partners has to do with communication and an ability to be more intimate, something that may boil down to my feeling that, whatever they might say, male partners to date have clearly been after a part of me that I'm not especially fond of, and, at this point tend to avoid having it become an active part of any sexual encounter.

So, would that change, post-transition? Quite possibly, but I don't really know how much or even if it would. I said yes to sex with the two men I've had it with because they were direct and polite (more or less) in asking for it. The second one was kind of indirect, and frankly, it felt a bit creepy to me that he spent such a long time non-verbally trying to hint at his desire, when coming out and asking would probably have gotten him what he wanted with far less delay, and a lot less expectation on my part that he was looking for a long-term relationship.

As with many things sexual, it pretty much has ended the friendship. Or at least he hasn't contacted me, lately, and I have no desire to abase myself by pursuing him, especially when he is married, and I should have probably been more resolute in saying no, since it has led to at least a degree of self-loathing that I really didn't need to invite.

People seem to construct their sense of orientation so differently, I hesitate to try to generalize my own experience in any way, since in some ways it doesn't seem to be echoed exactly in any of the narratives I've read from others. Maybe they're not being as analytical of their encounters as I'm being? Maybe the feel something similar (or very different) but feel pressured to adopt a set of linguistic conventions they've found from the places that fit their own experiences most closely? (I know I've done that in the past). 

I'd rather describe things in detail, and leave labels for tuna fish cans and other products that need them.

[Brooke777]

I used to like men and women equally. Now, I'm only interested in women. I identify as a lesbian now.

[Kevin Peña]

Well, I for one am indifferent when it comes to to orientation. I like people of both genders. However, if I were to pick between two people of the same personality, I would definitely go for a man. I just love the feeling of being in those big, strong arms.

Hmm, I might experience a shift more towards men at this rate. 

[Beth Andrea]

...Aside from the linguistic tangles, I'm not sure I understand what it is you want to hear?...

Mainly a discussion on the solidity of "orientation" -vs- "preference", specifically which term (if either) is more easily changed (and thus, less substantial in absolute meaning). There may not be a cut-and-dried answer, but the discussion would be neat to read.

In my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...

But if I were to change my preferences and want a man (which is conceivable, especially post-op), that changes my internal vision of myself, which is a larger change than merely identifying with a new label. To me, changing preference is a more fundamental change than changing orientation. (I could be wrong).

And of course, this is just a hypothetical semantics discussion, we're not formulating dogma or anything.

[Rowan Rue]

I've always identified as Bi, which led me to be confused as to why I'd had so few relationships with men prior to transition.  Since I started transition, and for the first time ever had a guy see me and be attracted to me as a woman, it all suddenly made sense.  Gay guys (like everyone else) always saw my body and were attracted to me as a guy.  For some reason being with men used to make me even more aware of being in the wrong body.  Hence, very few relationships with men.
Since I started transition I've been more attracted to men as I find them interacting with me in a way that confirms my sense of self rather than denying it.
My attraction to women has remained constant thus far.
I guess I'm saying I started Bi, and now I'm more Bi.

[Keira]

I'm bi (or more accurately Pansexual), but I can't have a relationship with a guy if he sees me as male. Hence why I tend to prefer girls. But if I had transitioned and was seen as female I probably would like guys and girls just as equally. Effectively it would appear that my orientation changed; but when analyzed I would just say that I was straight as a male (sort of Pansexual, as in every gender but cis male), but Pansexual as a female.

As much as I would like to say I'm a straight male...I can't because if I'm in a relationship with a girl and I am perceived and treated as male I could only cope for so long. Personally I would rather be perceived as androgynous-female, and sort of genderfluid as well. So for now I would call myself asexual, with the exception of being treated as female.

-Sky

[KayCeeDee]

Beth, I think it depends more on the person and the qualities they seek in a partner. Something I don't think that cis heteronormative people would have a hard time getting their heads around.  Interesting question. I wonder if anyone has done a study of that...

[Cindy]

Well I married a woman, who I love and care for, but I have always fancied guys. Since HRT my preference is only for guys. I have no sexual feelings for woman. So as far as semantics are concerned I'm straight.

Can't say I have any mental confusion or even thoughts about it to be honest. It's just what I am.

[Elspeth]

Mainly a discussion on the solidity of "orientation" -vs- "preference", specifically which term (if either) is more easily changed (and thus, less substantial in absolute meaning). There may not be a cut-and-dried answer, but the discussion would be neat to read.

In my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...

But if I were to change my preferences and want a man (which is conceivable, especially post-op), that changes my internal vision of myself, which is a larger change than merely identifying with a new label. To me, changing preference is a more fundamental change than changing orientation. (I could be wrong).

And of course, this is just a hypothetical semantics discussion, we're not formulating dogma or anything.

Orientation vs. gender, as terms, for me tend to be politically loaded. I'm not adverse to being perceived as a gay male... well, the male part I am, but if forced to choose, maybe just because I felt that was how I was perceived by most, I think I'd prefer it to being seen as "straight."

Perhaps the source of my confusion in reading your post comes from this?

In my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...  [emphasis added]

For me, being identified as a straight male (even if perhaps that was the "stranger perception" when I was married) was something that was hugely dysphoric for me. Maybe it's that I was aware of and wondering whether I wasn't transsexual from a fairly early age?  During the marriage, to myself, at least, I looked at our relationship as a lesbian relationship, and when I look at butch-femme dynamic as it's been described in the lesbian community in the years since I came of age sexually (which were the years of the flannel-and-doc-martens "uniform" at least among college-educated lesbians (which would include LUGs)) those descriptions were the ones that resonated the most for me, with my wife as soft butch and me as some sort of deep stealth femme (and not always deep stealth, especially to her).

I've more or less assumed that I would always be that way, but loneliness has gotten to me, or given me too much time to think about things, perhaps.  I still don't find myself aroused by gay male images, for the most part, but at one point I did realize that I actively avoided them. Even after addressing that, I really can't say they do much for me.  Then again, at this point, straight porn doesn't do much either (and it only ever did with me identifying with the actresses, and most of the time that seemed so faked (and I would hear my various girlfriends from years ago repeating their ridicule of its fakery) that it too was not good for me... oddly enough, it did quite a lot for my ex, and I discovered that the more softcore things that did something for me (the type of stuff usually identified as porn (or erotica) for women was likewise boring to my ex.

I think I've long tended to feel that, if I was going to use labels at all, I would use the ones of my own choice. And for me, I won't choose to use labels that are imposed from the outside... it seems too much like bowing to the oppressor for me.  I can fantasize about being submissive, and in some ways I am, I suppose, but forced submission and all that really doesn't do it for me either, and is in fact, at least most of the time, something that's a turn-off for me. I'm not sure I could keep a straight face if someone asked me to play domme. I'm drifting to this, I guess, because the thought of accepting a label like "straight male" has for me associations that are largely negative, and also just distorts and fails to say much that's relevant or truthful about any part of my own history, despite the fact that there might have been at least a few people out there (ones who knew almost nothing about me or my marriage) who might have used that term to describe me. Unless they could do it still after being a fly on the wall for a week or two of my daily life, I'd tend to say it's an irrelevant term for me.

Hoping this comes across as a description of my experience, rather than anything disrespecting your own choices in framing your history -- a history I clearly do no know in enough depth to say how I would (or would have) see/seen you at various points in your own life to date.

[Penny Gurl]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently as I move along more into my transition.  Previously I was a straight male, when I was trying to figure things out earlier in life and working on sorting out my feelings I thought... Maybe I'm gay.. Nope, zero attraction and desire to be with men. I guess that's out.. So as I've begun transition, has anything changed? No, not really. It's odd on the rare occasion when I get "attention" from males.. Throws me off like, " what are you doing?" But I'm no longer a "straight" male, however I'm not truly female (yet) so I'm a transbian? I would identify more with lesbians then gay men, or even straight women, actually one of my best friends is a lesbian and I think knowing her has made me more comfortable with my self in regards to partner preferences. 

[Sarah Blomsterhatt]

I don't see my sexual orientation changing at all throughout my transitioning, before I was gynosexual, now I am gynosexual. Gynosexual as in attracted to women, or feminine features, most of the people I found attracted to are women with a few exceptions of very feminine looking guys.

I really like the idea of gynosexual and androsexual as it describes your sexual orientations without having to refer to your own gender in relation to the gender of the person you are attracted to. It's basicly just a fancy word for "I like girls", or "I like boys".

[spacial]

My preference was for oldermen. That kinda freaked me out, as a teenager, when I started to learn about the Freudian complexes and still took them seriously.

I have and generally still do, call my self gay because my feelings are toward a man, then society says that is gay. For me I have always and still do, see my self as a perfectly hetrosexual person with a problem with their equipment.

By comparison, as a child, I saw myself as a perfectly normal little girl who was alone because of my appearance. But I did have periods when I had very good female friendships. I saw these as friendships. It was others who referred to them as boy/girlfriend.

So I call myself gay because my concern for what others think is not sufficient to make sure they know the reality. And I am aware of how utterly arrogant that sounds, but it is more an expression of my refusal to apologise for existing!

Then, because I like a puzzle, I married a woman. A woman, who if she had had the choice and opportunity, would have been a male, long before. I married her because her character is everything I aspire to. I can't imagine any other measure really.

So, in conclusion, I now see these labels as excuses, which we make up, to offer society, so they won't want to beat us up. We revel in or seek to rectify the associations that society applies to our respective label.

Transgender isn't about those women in 'Percilla, Queen of the Desert'.  It's actually ......

Gay isn't about Elton John. It's actually .......

Bi-Sexual isn't about adultry, It's actually .....

Cross dressing isn't about pretending to be women. It's about....

I am me. Totally unique. Mostly harmless and willing to give as well as receive.

[big kim]

I was bi before and still am.

[hazel]

Right now I identify as mostly gay, with some slight bi-curiousness thrown in for good measure I guess if I transitioned that would make me a straight-ish female. I've said before that I think this is probably a good reason to include trans under the LGB umbrella, as (unless you are asexual) you will fit into the bi or gay category at one point or other, whether that be before or after you transition.

But I wouldn't get to hung up on how you label yourself, just go with it.

As for hrt, after reading some post's where people described it freeing up their sexuality to some degree I have to say I'm very curious about how it might affect me, I've only ever been with guys, but never really romantically, would that change I wonder.

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

I have always had girlfriends and was married three time.  All of which failed.  I did have a few encounters with men, but nothing major.

I began to consider myself a Bi.  But I think in reality, I am more about the person.  As I go along in transition I do find that, like Cindy, I fancy blokes.  Therefore, I would say I am  straight.

That does not mean that if I met the right gal, I would walk away.

[JennX]

The main stumbling block I find people have the hardest time comprehending when trying to explain being transgender is SEX =/= GENDER. And despite my best efforts, some people can not grasp this seemingly simple to me concept. Many people believe that if you were born male, and are trans, and interested in men, you have to be gay. Period. Same thinking applies to being born female, and trans. They don't grasp the concept of the mind dictating who you are, but leave it up to your anatomy. Then, if someone is bisexual or asexual, you can really watch their head explode, as this really destroys any of their arguments one way or the other. You can be MTF/FTM trans and bi, gay, straight, asexual or what ever you want and feel like being. Gender and sexual preference are two separate and mutually exclusive concepts.

As for who has it easier? I really think it depends on the person, as I've met quite a few trans people, of all different sexual preferences and genders, and there is not pattern, as far as I can see, to who has it easier. Life is life regardless... it comes down to how you as a person deal with it.

[spacial]

Jennx

Perhaps the question should be, what is gender?

We have the someone dismissive, yet perfectly accurate, comments such as 'It's between the ears', but that isn't enough. It's been said, it's that simple, but it may simply be too simple.

We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.