Curious about being trans -v- being gay....

[Elspeth]

We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.

How so? Gender ≠ Sex -- the only thing vague here is that sex has multiple meanings. 

I'm assuming in this thread that "sex" means "sexuality" -- that is, orientation, preferences, and as many different spectra as one needs to describe it adequately to oneself, to others, or to those you think you might want to explain yours to.

Ditto about infinitely variable, and multi-dimensional, continuous spectra for gender, I expect.

Those who don't understand that sexuality comes in a wide range of flavors, mixes and degrees, probably are best avoided, unless you enjoy seeing their eyeballs pop out for the split second before they retreat to their hideyholes and scrub their brains clean of the bad person's confusing information.

[Elspeth]

OR, you could . . .

[Kevin Peña]

As I go along in transition I do find that, like Cindy, I fancy blokes.  Therefore, I would say I am  straight.

Wait, since when do hair color preferences count as sexual orientation? Guys and girls can be blond... 

[Brooke777]

Wait, since when do hair color preferences count as sexual orientation? Guys and girls can be blond... 

I think you misread her. She said "blokes" not blonds. 

[Kevin Peña]

Oops. I did. Sorry. Just got back from school, and I'm sleepy.

I for one am starting to think that I'm straight. I feel sleepy, and I keep imagining sleeping while cuddling with a guy on this cold winter's day. 

[spacial]

How so? Gender ≠ Sex -- the only thing vague here is that sex has multiple meanings. 

I'm assuming in this thread that "sex" means "sexuality" -- that is, orientation, preferences, and as many different spectra as one needs to describe it adequately to oneself, to others, or to those you think you might want to explain yours to.

Well no, that isn't the point at all.

We, especially on Susans' but I think in the transgender community generally, have come to separate gender from sex, by the rather simple (simplistic) device of, Sex is between the legs and gender  between the ears.

Yet for most, sex and gender are almost synonymous. Perhaps with the exception of a sex act itself.

Beyond that, the cross over, for most, would seem to be almsot taken for granted. Yet we take for granted that they are tow entirely different things.

If we are to avoid making ourselves into a secret society, we really need to address this issue.

What exactly do we mean by gender?

The main stumbling block I find people have the hardest time comprehending when trying to explain being transgender is SEX =/= GENDER. And despite my best efforts, some people can not grasp this seemingly simple to me concept.

It simply isn't adequate to dismiss such people as being too stupid to understand.

So, what qualities make gender different from sex in a way that almost anyone can readily accept?

The dictionary says for sex: either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

While for gender it is correctly, a class of a set.

Yet I suggest that more most ordinary people, even an awareness of the mathematical context, or it's neighbour in linguistics is generally unknown. Forms might say, as, Gender M/F or sex M/F. I doubt most give either a second thought.

Yet we have adopted the word Gender to describe what we is between the ears. An awareness of ourselves, innate and within a context of the class, Relationships, possibly family or society.

But while many will probably understand that, we need to have descriptions and references which will allow others to readily accept there is a difference.

Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class?

[Brooke777]

Oops. I did. Sorry. Just got back from school, and I'm sleepy.

I for one am starting to think that I'm straight. I feel sleepy, and I keep imagining sleeping while cuddling with a guy on this cold winter's day. 

Honestly, from reading your posts in the past I always thought you were straight.

[JennX]

It simply isn't adequate to dismiss such people as being too stupid to understand.

So, what qualities make gender different from sex in a way that almost anyone can readily accept?

The dictionary says for sex: either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

While for gender it is correctly, a class of a set.

Yet I suggest that more most ordinary people, even an awareness of the mathematical context, or it's neighbour in linguistics is generally unknown. Forms might say, as, Gender M/F or sex M/F. I doubt most give either a second thought.

Yet we have adopted the word Gender to describe what we is between the ears. An awareness of ourselves, innate and within a context of the class, Relationships, possibly family or society.

But while many will probably understand that, we need to have descriptions and references which will allow others to readily accept there is a difference.

Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class?

To better state my point, I should say Sexual Preference =/= Gender Identity.

I generally don't dismiss people ever so quickly... until say after a year or two of deep and meaningful effort on my part, to the best of my abilities, to explain and elucidate this point, is when at which time, I dismiss them. They are then allowed to wallow in their own ignorance. Forever. 

People like things to have labels, and to be able to place them in boxes. Gay cis-male, likes other men... in to the stereotypical gay guy label/box. Lesbian cis-girl, likes other girls, in to the stereotypical lesbian girl label/box.

Now what happens with a trans-male or trans-female, that like other females and/or males... uh oh... how to do we label them, where to we put them. What to do, what to do? More importantly... how do we feel about this? Are we threatened by it? Does it cause us to question ourselves too much? If people can't understand an issue, and really get educated about and fully comprehend it's meaning... they can never really give their honest, unbiased, and true opinion on it. So until more people learn that sexual preference and gender identity are two separate and exclusive things, most really aren't qualified to give their opinion on the subject. Yes... bisexual, trans-people do exist... as well as asexual trans-people... and many other colors of the rainbow. So until people start to realize this, they will never be able to understand the concept.

Gender is far, far more than what's in your mind. It's a vast, far reaching and dynamic concept that varies with the individual and is near impossible to always fit in to any given set of labels or boxes.

[spacial]

If I may I will point out that in # xx where I wrote, on my last line, Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class? I should have written Gender ≠ Sex.

Sorry about that. 

To better state my point, I should say Sexual Preference =/= Gender Identity.



Gender is far, far more than what's in your mind. It's a vast, far reaching and dynamic concept that varies with the individual and is near impossible to always fit in to any given set of labels or boxes.

The first point. with respect, I think is accepted by most.

As for the second, I've just had a thought.

Why are we pursuing this at all?

I mean, why are we so resistance to the notion of changing sex or gender, whatever people prefer?

If someone achieves full SRS and completely passes, as I understand, almost everyone who has full SRS does, what difference does it make if someone says they changed sex, gender, gender identity or whatever?

I'm making this point for myself really. I have realised that I have been somewhat seduced by the notion that sex and gender are somehow so very different that it is important to make the point. Yet Why? Why should it matter?

Sexual preference is a personal matter.

Also, sorry JennX and any other, I may have been pursuing this point from the wrong angle altogether. Feeling a bit silly now! 

[JennX]

If I may I will point out that in # xx where I wrote, on my last line, Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class? I should have written Gender ≠ Sex.

Sorry about that. 

The first point. with respect, I think is accepted by most.

Yep. Most... not all. And those few that don't get it, really make me scratch my head in wonder.

As for the second, I've just had a thought.

Why are we pursuing this at all?

I mean, why are we so resistance to the notion of changing sex or gender, whatever people prefer?

If someone achieves full SRS and completely passes, as I understand, almost everyone who has full SRS does, what difference does it make if someone says they changed sex, gender, gender identity or whatever?

I'm making this point for myself really. I have realised that I have been somewhat seduced by the notion that sex and gender are somehow so very different that it is important to make the point. Yet Why? Why should it matter?

Sexual preference is a personal matter.

Also, sorry JennX and any other, I may have been pursuing this point from the wrong angle altogether. Feeling a bit silly now! 

It shouldn't matter. To people such as myself, and my close circle of friends, it makes no difference at all. People are people. Each different and unique. However to some (I guess those would be the ones mentioned above) it makes a huge issue, where IMHO there really is none at all... except of their own making.

I pass (hate that word btw) just fine now, and have for several years pre-HRT as well... but if I go out with a guy on a few dates, then decide to tell him I'm trans, guess what, if he gets mad, one of the first things he'll say is: "I'm not gay"... usually to which I respond... "neither am I". So? People have ingrained and intertwined the concepts of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and gender presentation for so long, it's hard for some to tell the difference between them. It really shouldn't be an issue, but for some, it is something they will never grasp.

[Lesley_Roberta]

When you are horny, what do you want to be with?

That basically answers the question.

I am in a male body, so if I am having sex, it's with male sex organs.

I claim to be a woman.

I have gone so far as to respond to the wife's comment "I don't want to have sex with a woman" by saying, 'you already are'.

I have a strap on I can't remove, that squirts the real thing. But when I am having sex, I am with what I wish to be with (a female).

Mentally I guess I am a lesbian. So I suppose someone could claim I was mentally homosexual.

It will be a cold day in hell before I am wearing a sexy nighty bent over with a surgically arrived at vagina waiting to get mounted by a man though. Not at gun point either.

I have though, a circumstance preventing me from ever experiencing sex with a male. And it is entirely bias driven. I hate men. No I REALLY hate men. The thing is, I have this hate thanks to my history background. Men are responsible for almost all of the world's problems. I blame them for it. I hate men.

I will never find myself sufficiently female, that I am ok with letting a man enjoy me as one.

While I understand why we are geneally grouped together with the homosexual crowd, I don't actually consider me as part of their reality. I am not a cis man seeking a cis man. Nor a cis woman seeking a cis woman. I am an ordinary woman in an extraordinary circumstance and nothing else as I see it. I feel more akin to a feminist stuck in her worst nightmare.

[justmeinoz]

It is likely that being able to come to terms with one's true self can cause a freeing of inhibitions and what seems to be a change in orientation.  Being able to experience the full range of emotions makes one more able to appreciate attraction where it was repressed before.
At least that is my own experience.

Karen.

[suzifrommd]

For me, it's that once I started thinking of myself as a woman with soft hairless skin, breasts, non-muscular, etc., then the idea of a muscular, hairy, bulky guy making love to me didn't seem so yucky or strange.

I should note that this happened BEFORE I took my first hormone pill. It was brought about by changes in the way I see myself.

All that being said, I have yet to find hairiness, muscles, bulk, or male genitalia in the slightest bit attractive. It's still the female form that I notice.

[spacial]

It shouldn't matter. To people such as myself, and my close circle of friends, it makes no difference at all. People are people. Each different and unique. However to some (I guess those would be the ones mentioned above) it makes a huge issue, where IMHO there really is none at all... except of their own making.

I pass (hate that word btw) just fine now, and have for several years pre-HRT as well... but if I go out with a guy on a few dates, then decide to tell him I'm trans, guess what, if he gets mad, one of the first things he'll say is: "I'm not gay"... usually to which I respond... "neither am I". So? People have ingrained and intertwined the concepts of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and gender presentation for so long, it's hard for some to tell the difference between them. It really shouldn't be an issue, but for some, it is something they will never grasp.

I really think we have two problems here.

The first is that people generally seem to assume that almost any encounter between male and female is for sex. I recall, when the notion of gay liberation was being openly discussed in the early 70s, one of the problems that was cited by many was that young men would know if their male friends were just friends or wanted them for sex. 'Therefore, to allow homosexuals to practices their habits openly, as we currenly do with hetrosexuals will lead to the breakdown of society!'

You get the idea? It has a sort of rational to it and the greatest argument against is that it hasn't happened!

The second problem is what young men really want from a relationship form women. And at the risk of being labeled too cynical, I suggest that most young men want trophies. A conquest to tell their mates, 'I had that!'

Think about it, how many guys will openly say they had the local bike? (A young woman who gives it away to almost anyone).

Now I could point out that that girl, with the label, bike, is actually a nice, very intelegent girl, who enjoys sex and isn't too inhibited to say so! If the truth be told, most young hetro gwomen would love to be in her place but are just too scared of dealing with the label.

Now where does this leave you?

It means you need to be a bit mroe careful about who you pick up. If the guy seems more interested in his image and appearance than he is in you then that is what he is. (Can I use the term mommy's boy without sounding catty? No, OK, I won't say it!), but you get the idea?

Now, how does that sound? Better?

[JennX]

Now where does this leave you?

It means you need to be a bit mroe careful about who you pick up. If the guy seems more interested in his image and appearance than he is in you then that is what he is. (Can I use the term mommy's boy without sounding catty? No, OK, I won't say it!), but you get the idea?

Now, how does that sound? Better?

Well you just about described 90% of all the men where I live (Miami, FL) lol.  Most all of the guys here are way, way, way in to their appearance, almost as much as they are their cars. I try to stay away from the younger, buff, tatted, beach/gym guys... but those are exactly the ones who usually come up to me. If they live with their parents, don't have a job, their own place/car, etc. I don't even waste my time on them. The older guys really aren't much better either... but they at least take you to dinner at a nice restaurant or buy you something nice first. I have met a few decent ones, but not the one just yet.

[kinz]

Jennx

Perhaps the question should be, what is gender?

We have the someone dismissive, yet perfectly accurate, comments such as 'It's between the ears', but that isn't enough. It's been said, it's that simple, but it may simply be too simple.

We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.

hoo boy.  you did the thing.  you went ahead and asked the question.

yeah, what is gender?  it's definitely socially constructed, at least to some kind of degree.  some people have it.  some people don't have it.  some people have it so much that it overpowers other people's expectations of what it should be.  some people are so convinced of its danger that they campaign aggressively to obliterate it and deprive it of meaning.  others believe so much in its power that they are fight back just as aggressively in opposition, and while it seems like both of these groups can agree on the fact that equating gender to one's behavior (whether gendered expression or sexuality) is probably not appropriate, there's still a huge contingent of people in society at large who are perfectly happy to line up gender stuff and sexuality stuff as pretty much the same thing.

and on some level that all confuses me.  like, what even is gender?  what does it mean to be a woman, or a man, or neither?  what does it mean beyond declaring allegiance to some arbitrary group?  and why is that so often accompanied by the desire (or is it an expectation) to alter yourself to appear closer to the ideal of appearance in the group?  is it only because that's the only way for people in these groups to take otherwise-"outsiders" seriously?  that can't be the whole story either.  but then we get the fact that there's this strange intersection of people, those who want to change their bodies, those who want to fit in socially, and those who want both.  is that a gender/sex divide?  i mean, i'm inclined to say no, since i don't think either gender or sex is that simple, and, well, i don't really understand the existence of gender in the first place.  but then there's more to it than that, even.

i guess the greatest level on which i can understand gender is like this: the way i like and interact and am attracted to and have sex with girls as someone who's perceived as female is way different than the way it was as someone perceived as male.  being a straight dude just isn't the same as being a queer girl.  i don't act like the same person, i don't think like the same person, i don't feel like the same person.  and hell, i didn't start out transitioning finding asymmetrical haircuts and tattoos and piercings and conscious flouting of gender norms to be sexy.  i thought "those people" were weird, i thought they were rejecting their "natural beauty" or idk something stupid like that.  now i AM one of those people.  and i also find them all incredibly sexy!  the power of socialization is pretty strong.

so, all that said, i feel like gender and sexual preference are linked on some level though, like i constantly wonder to myself why it seems like a lot of trans people who've spent life in particular gender roles with particular gender expectations display the same sexual preferences after transition.  i said it before: the power of socialization is pretty strong.  like, why else are such a large percentage (up to 50% according to some estimates) of trans people attracted to the same sex?  that doesn't particularly sound like something that's entirely unlinked to gender or gender performance.  i think what we should be saying instead of that gender and sexual attraction are completely unrelated is that it doesn't MATTER what their relation is.  like, as if it's somehow bad to be a queer trans person, but our only solution is to deny there's any relationship and stick out our tongues and say "nuh-uh!"?  society's scared of the queers, scared that there are going to be more dykes and gay guys prowling the street and corrupting their children or whatever.  i think there's no point in pretending that they aren't related, but i do think there's a lot to be said for rejecting the notion that it illegitimizes us. 

we exist, regardless of our circumstances, and i think that's ok.

[BunnyBee]

i guess the greatest level on which i can understand gender is like this: the way i like and interact and am attracted to and have sex with girls as someone who's perceived as female is way different than the way it was as someone perceived as male.  being a straight dude just isn't the same as being a queer girl.  i don't act like the same person, i don't think like the same person, i don't feel like the same person.  and hell, i didn't start out transitioning finding asymmetrical haircuts and tattoos and piercings and conscious flouting of gender norms to be sexy.  i thought "those people" were weird, i thought they were rejecting their "natural beauty" or idk something stupid like that.  now i AM one of those people.  and i also find them all incredibly sexy!  the power of socialization is pretty strong.

This is the thing that always weirds me out.  The changes.  It never meant to become a different person through transition, and maybe I haven't, but when I go back and see things I wrote pre-transition and hear recordings of me talking pre-transition, that person does not seem like me at all.  My thought processes are different, the language I use is much, much different, the things that I felt were important about any given subject were different, and none of that happened by any conscious effort.

In fact, it was very important to me for there to be continuity between the person I was when I presented male and the person I became when I started presenting female, because I always told myself that I had always been a girl/woman pretending to be a boy/man.  If transitioning into the female role changed who I am as a person, whether by social or chemical influence it doesn't matter, that seems to contradict my ideas somewhat and I have to question them.

As for what gender is and why we have it, that is a harder question to answer, I suspect because to explaining it in simple enough terms for most people to understand would be very reductionist.  Is there a biological aspect to gender?  Maybe, probably.  Is there a social construct aspect to it?  Absolutely.  Can there be even more to it?  Sure.  Can you be genderless?  Yeah.  Can you be both genders at once?  Totally.  Even if it were simply an interplay  between two factors-social and biological, even that is probably not nearly the simple dynamic we want it to be.

So many little imperceptible things affect how we frame things in our minds.  An anecdote, in another thread one person saw their need to transition as being a function of their gender, their innate femininity, while I see mine as a function of my sex, or my innate femaleness.  The reason the two of us have framed our need to transition so differently seemed to at least possibly be a result of her being 5'5" and my being 6'2".  All the ways our height affected how our lives went and which parts of our selves that we had the greatest adversarial relationship with.  Meanwhile something in our minds, imprinted on our brains was telling us the same thing, you need to be a woman, you can never be a man.

I'm sure none of that makes a lot of sense, but I think my point is that gender, like sexual orientation is super complicated and is super prone to being conflated with other things, which only adds to the confusion.  And maybe the link is not a conflation, maybe it's real, and that only makes it even harder to understand.

In the end, we can think it to death, but does it really matter?  Do we really need to deconstruct it into all it's individual parts so we can hopefully understand how it's put together?  Our analytical side may say yes.  Maybe there is value in doing that FOR SCIENCE!  But on a personal level, where the rubber hits the road, isn't the whole point to be happy, or at least for that emotion to be available to us?  If transition, if being attracted to whomever, gets us there, that is the only thing that matters, isn't it?

[Elspeth]

i said it before: the power of socialization is pretty strong.  like, why else are such a large percentage (up to 50% according to some estimates) of trans people attracted to the same sex?  that doesn't particularly sound like something that's entirely unlinked to gender or gender performance.  i think what we should be saying instead of that gender and sexual attraction are completely unrelated is that it doesn't MATTER what their relation is.  like, as if it's somehow bad to be a queer trans person, but our only solution is to deny there's any relationship and stick out our tongues and say "nuh-uh!"? 

Until fairly recently, trans people (at least transitioning ones) tended to be MTF in the majority... that's only recently flip-flopped, but I would tend to assume that most published studies you've seen are skewed in part by that imbalance (which I tend to see as socially driven on several different levels, rather than anything intrinsic, though there may also be the factor that, MTFs were so much the focus until very recently, that it's likely many of those living today, who are likely to seek transition, are either already seeking it, or have done as much as they intend to).

It's not entirely clear what you mean by attracted to the same sex, but I'm going to assume that you mean the same sex that they identify themselves as). 

Here's my take on this, mostly based on my conversations with friends over time... that, women and girls I knew in high school and college were much more open about, at the very least, bisexual feelings, than men. I know some of that is probably a result of homophobia that is mainly directed at male couples and individuals. Also, to face these issues at all, one has to make some sort of peace with the likelihood that one will be perceived as gay/lesbian at some point, even those who are attracted to opposite sexes on both sides of transition probably will have to face that, if only from strangers who make assumptions.

Given that we do tend to be forced into facing it, perhaps the answer is that we find ourselves in a place where we've already had to deal with social disapproval from at least some people, so searching our hearts and libidos for what actually works for us isn't such a stretch for most?

There are cultures in history where same-sex encounters and relationships, even, were not seen in the same way that they have been since the late 19th century. Too big a subject to go into in detail, but if you're interested, the studies on that stuff can be fascinating.

Sorry if I'm not yet responding specifically to some of what spacial was raising, though I think those issues probably deserve their own thread.

[Elspeth]

In fact, it was very important to me for there to be continuity between the person I was when I presented male and the person I became when I started presenting female, because I always told myself that I had always been a girl/woman pretending to be a boy/man.  If transitioning into the female role changed who I am as a person, whether by social or chemical influence it doesn't matter, that seems to contradict my ideas somewhat and I have to question them.

Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary? There are many ways I've tried to be myself, through adopting fairly heavy androgyny, for example, but in the end it really hasn't put a dent in my dysphoria in some ways.

One part of that (which I eventually managed to express to a therapist) is just simply that I look at myself, and I try, no matter what, to see feminine features. I find, for instance, that something as simple as wearing a bra and breast forms to bed (to sleep) is very comforting to me, and not doing so leads to restlessness and sometimes distress.

But the other part is that need to be seen by others, and to have as close as possible full permission to express myself as female in whatever way appeals to me, which is not something that is really possible without some serious social conflict in many situations in daily life.  That part is socially defined. I suspect if we could go back in time to, say, a pre-Columbian Hopi tribe, their transgen members would be called women with less conflict and condescension than we tend to see when someone today is identified as trans.

[Elspeth]

Well no, that isn't the point at all.

We, especially on Susans' but I think in the transgender community generally, have come to separate gender from sex, by the rather simple (simplistic) device of, Sex is between the legs and gender  between the ears.

Yet for most, sex and gender are almost synonymous. Perhaps with the exception of a sex act itself.

Beyond that, the cross over, for most, would seem to be almsot taken for granted. Yet we take for granted that they are tow entirely different things.

If we are to avoid making ourselves into a secret society, we really need to address this issue.

What exactly do we mean by gender?

This is an interesting set of questions, but since the context in this thread was, in fact, about sexuality, not about sex identity or secondary sex characteristics, perhaps we should address the issues you raise in a separate thread?

I'll warn you in advance that my own view on this is that we don't really know the distinction that well, and that what was once the general opinion on it, seems, at the very least, like it might be mistaken, at least to some degree.  Our sense of our own gender identity has to come from somewhere... we get into a lot of unresolved issues, though, when we try to pin that down, at least when we try to tease out what parts are physical and what parts are by products of society, conditioning and so on (since those things can have physical effects as well).

But I think this is a subject for a thread that's not mainly about orientation issues.