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Curious about being trans -v- being gay....

Started by Beth Andrea, February 07, 2013, 09:22:50 PM

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BunnyBee

Quote from: Elspeth on February 09, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary?

When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?
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spacial

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
hoo boy.  you did the thing.  you went ahead and asked the question.

yeah, what is gender?  it's definitely socially constructed, at least to some kind of degree.  some people have it.  some people don't have it. 

If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?

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Nero

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:29:43 PM
Quote from: Elspeth on February 09, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary?

When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?

Well as you know, I'm pretty sure my post-transition behavioral changes are pathological and not innate. What sort of changes are you talking about, hon?
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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BunnyBee

Quote from: spacial on February 09, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?



Where do you draw that line though?  How can we be sure that some of the behaviors or traits we call feminine or masculine weren't imprinted on our brains at birth?  And how can we know that somebody else might have a trait imprinted at birth that we only picked up through socialization?
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BunnyBee

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 04:55:15 PM
When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?


Well as you know, I'm pretty sure my post-transition behavioral changes are pathological and not innate. What sort of changes are you talking about, hon?

Well recently a couple things happened, I listened to some old recordings of myself talking and then I accidentally came across something I had written prior to transition.  I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago.  When I think about things that make a person fundamentally themselves, the first things that come to mind is how they think about things, what things do they find interesting, how do they communicate those thoughts.  These things have changed for me so much so that I don't recognize myself of even a few years ago as being the person I am now.  It makes me feel strange, I'm not gonna lie.
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Nero

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 05:06:50 PM

Well recently a couple things happened, I listened to some old recordings of myself talking and then I accidentally came across something I had written prior to transition.  I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago.  When I think about things that make a person fundamentally themselves, the first things that come to mind is how they think about things, what things do they find interesting, how do they communicate those thoughts.  These things have changed for me so much so that I don't recognize myself of even a few years ago as being the person I am now.  It makes me feel strange, I'm not gonna lie.

Ok how did that person think and use language differently?
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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eli77

I think sometimes we get so stuck on the trans thing, we forget that people are... you know, complicated. All people. Like if I asked my sister if she's anything like who she was 5 years ago, she'd say "hell, no" just as strongly as I would. People change over time through their experiences. And transition is a pretty massive experience. Think like what being in a war zone does to a person, or living through cancer or having their kid die... There are a ton of things that can happen in a person's life to massively reshape their personality in a short time.

I'd be kind of concerned if you managed to go through transition and didn't change. THAT would be pretty strange.
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Kevin Peña

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 09, 2013, 05:18:17 PM
I'd be kind of concerned if you managed to go through transition and didn't change. THAT would be pretty strange.

Not to mention impossible, since transition means change. Badum tsh!  :P
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BunnyBee

Thanks Sarah, I think you are probably right.  I think it's just the rapidity of the change that has been disturbing, but considering how much my life was turned on it's head in recent years, it probably makes sense?
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spacial

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:57:24 PM
Where do you draw that line though?  How can we be sure that some of the behaviors or traits we call feminine or masculine weren't imprinted on our brains at birth?  And how can we know that somebody else might have a trait imprinted at birth that we only picked up through socialization?

I don't think we should or even tolerate it.

But since it is the transgender community who have created the separation, then it would seem relevant to be able to identify what it is we are talking about.

I will go along with your notion but emphasise it by saying that Gender refers to behaviours, attitudes and reactions which society generally associates with being either male or female.

The feminists probably will hate it, so there's a plus!  ;D

How does that seem to people here?
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BunnyBee

I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?
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Nero

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 06:41:34 PM
I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?

I get it. How can we ever separate biological from conditioned traits? Don't think we can. I kind of see 'biology' as a person's potential. But clearly our experiences shape us. And we probably react differently to those experiences based on biology/other factors.

For instance, I'm pretty sure a fairly minor thing impacted me and my future a great deal. If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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BunnyBee

Yes I think little things can change a person's life in such unexpected ways.  It's kind of annoying in a way, especially when it creates unwelcome change.
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spacial

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 06:41:34 PM
I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?

I suggest we don't even try. As Admin point out, we probably can't. But more importantly, we simply don't need to.

We are a group unitied by a common goal of dealing with gender identity problems. whatever their cause, whatever the objectives, whatever the outcomes.

And frankly, we are not such a large group, as transgender, to make any difference.

But I think it is useful to have a reasoned definition of what we mean by gender as opposed to sex, simply because it is central to our common issue.

Gender refers to behaviours, attitudes and reactions which society generally associates with being either male or female.
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kinz

Quote from: spacial on February 09, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?


i guess, but it still leaves me confused as to what gender really is.

butch girls aren't male-gendered.  what does it mean to be a woman when there are literally three and a half billion ways to be one?  is there ANYthing women all have in common?  anything men have in common?  if not, how do we even begin to start finding a definition for womanhood, or manhood, or any other terminology relating to gender?
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Elspeth

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 05:06:50 PM
I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago. 

I'm not sure this is similar or relevant, but I remember showing my ex something once from when I was still invested in Mormonism. Granted, it was something I had written in a kind of journal inside my Book of Remembrance (a binder people usually keep their genealogical records in), and was part of something from when I had been the appointed student leader of my seminary class, so it bore a lot of marks from the linguistic habits and cliches of Mormon communication, particularly whenever they think another Mormon might be listening.

It was pretty dreadful and filled with what seemed by then (at least 8 years later) something that felt to me like a foreign person (and one who was way too confident and judgmental).  By that time I'd gone through a different kind of transformation in thinking and in being with people who thought and spoke in very different ways from some of the mantras that I'd grown up with, and that I can still hear whenever I visit sites populated mainly by Mormons, or visit Utah and see some of my more distant relatives (most of my immediate family members have left the Church, and those who haven't done so are very aware that bringing it up is generally not a good idea in my parents' house, at least).

I'm sure hormones will affect my thinking profoundly, though I have no idea how. If they don't, in some ways I suppose I will wind up feeling somehow cheated, if I really do not discover anything new or find that I'm communicating differently. And I do wonder this a fair bit, since it's been at least since the early 1990s that I tended, except when I get too long-winded or give into my overly analytical habits, to be assumed female online.  Some of that happened even before I felt compelled to come out to my then-spouse more clearly, and in fact was one of the triggers for my beginning to seek contact with other transwomen.  Some of it may have been based on the interests I developed in college... my advisor was a co-founder of the Women's Studies program at my college, and the courses I took from her (only one, actually, an Intro Poetry class that led to my becoming an English major) was one of the most deeply influential to my thinking on many different levels, particularly in terms of looking at the writing of others with empathy rather than fault-finding. At the very least, one could say she led to my being read as a woman in many settings, when there was nothing else to indicate my gender.

Still, I definitely hope there are other changes to come, since I don't really want to keep thinking the way I have been, and I worry that perhaps little or even nothing might change about that, which would almost throw into question the wisdom of taking that course.  Then again, to me it does seem that so much of the motivation is physical, is about the problem of connecting with people when I am assumed to be male, or assumed to think like one, and assumed to want things that men are expected to want. I've tried very hard to develop a sense of humor about that, or to counter with corrections when someone assumes I want something or am driven in some way they just assume to be commonplace. And sometimes that works for me, but it also remains stressful and an incentive for avoiding people and avoiding physical or visual contact, which is clearly very limiting.

The nail in the coffin, so to speak, seemed to be the encounter recently with the guy who had been playing footsie with me for roughly a year, and the utter boredom I felt somewhere during his second visit, when it became clear to me that he couldn't express what he wanted, and wasn't capable of hearing what I wanted, or bothering to ask, or show much openness when I tried to ask things... I think I also scared him by bringing out my toys. But who can say, when he wouldn't really say anything?
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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spacial

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.

Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 08:09:27 PM
i guess, but it still leaves me confused as to what gender really is.

butch girls aren't male-gendered.  what does it mean to be a woman when there are literally three and a half billion ways to be one?  is there ANYthing women all have in common?  anything men have in common?  if not, how do we even begin to start finding a definition for womanhood, or manhood, or any other terminology relating to gender?

OK, so we we have a point where we refer to behaviors associated with male and female. You rightly pointed out that it is still incomplete. We need to define what it is we mean.

There is certainly nothing, in this context, that males or females have in common. That is after all, why we are here!!

But what is socio-typical behaviour for males and females? I think if we start here with tendencies rather than actualities.



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Nero

Quote from: spacial on February 10, 2013, 04:21:44 AM
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.

Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?

Well, some of it probably. When I was little (before girls actively started hating me) girls would invite me to sleepovers (well every girl in class was invited) and it was just really awkward. I just couldn't relate to them or anything. And I was so uncomfortable, I asked to go home. I did have one female friend in my whole life - it was love at first at 7 years old (for me anyway).

But I felt so bad that girls hated me that I used to cry over having no female friends. So, it wasn't like I didn't want them. They were just terrible to me. (Nothing physical though.) Made worse because I couldn't understand them. And I seemed to have some innate resistance to hitting or even saying something mean to girls. The idea of fighting back against a girl didn't even occur to me (though boys certainly got it if they tried to join in).
So I had no defense. They saw right through me and hated what they saw. And this didn't just happen in school. It later happened in the workplace as an adult. So, not just a bunch of bullying children. Grown women did this to me as well.

So, probably my issues with women (any female other than my mother that is) are both biological and conditioned. I don't much like it either. I have this deep need to be loved and accepted by women.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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spacial

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 05:43:54 AM
Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?


Well, some of it probably. When I was little (before girls actively started hating me) girls would invite me to sleepovers (well every girl in class was invited) and it was just really awkward. I just couldn't relate to them or anything. And I was so uncomfortable, I asked to go home. I did have one female friend in my whole life - it was love at first at 7 years old (for me anyway).

But I felt so bad that girls hated me that I used to cry over having no female friends. So, it wasn't like I didn't want them. They were just terrible to me. (Nothing physical though.) Made worse because I couldn't understand them. And I seemed to have some innate resistance to hitting or even saying something mean to girls. The idea of fighting back against a girl didn't even occur to me (though boys certainly got it if they tried to join in).
So I had no defense. They saw right through me and hated what they saw. And this didn't just happen in school. It later happened in the workplace as an adult. So, not just a bunch of bullying children. Grown women did this to me as well.

So, probably my issues with women (any female other than my mother that is) are both biological and conditioned. I don't much like it either. I have this deep need to be loved and accepted by women.

You see, what I know of my own experiences which were spookly similar to yours, though with a rather more male type emphasis, I tried so very hard to become involved in what they were doing, but was simply not interested.

It wasn't that some sports hero or some war game wasn't in itself interesting, the boys seemed to be using the conversation, their knowledge of the subject, the force they used to pursue it, as a means of asserting themselves.

For the life of me, I just couldn't find any interest or motivation to assert myself with them. They just didn't interest me at all. Their competitiveness seemed so pointless.

I can't say that girls by comparison were so much more interesting because by that time, I was disconnected from them.

Now that for me was then and is now an indication that I was innately not like them. But others, teachers as such, tended to see it as my arrogance. (Being foreign didn't help of course. But it was more an excuse for them than me).

I am just understanding how you see the problems originating from nurture. That if the other girls had not been so nasty, for whatever reasons, then you may not have been so unsuccessful, socially.

I'm wondering if the problem may have been somewhat more becuase of transgender. That transgender is innate, not a consequence of experiences.

How doe you feel about that?
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Nero

Quote from: spacial on February 10, 2013, 06:06:56 AM
I am just understanding how you see the problems originating from nurture. That if the other girls had not been so nasty, for whatever reasons, then you may not have been so unsuccessful, socially.

I'm wondering if the problem may have been somewhat more because of transgender. That transgender is innate, not a consequence of experiences.

How doe you feel about that?

Oh most definitely, I believe my ->-bleeped-<- is innate. I'm just saying the social issues I have are nurture. Partly anyway. I also believe this is why the girls acted the way they did. Because I had no 'gender variant' appearance. I didn't try to look like a boy or butch or anything. I did nothing to my hair, just left it long. And even trying to wear makeup and 'style my hair' made no difference. Girls still hated me. It was just my personality, my behavior, my being that offended them so. I was a 'hairy man'.

So, yeah females have nothing to do with my being trans. But they are the most likely cause of many of my other issues. I wasn't bullied or abused by males, so it's about the girls/women. And I was never abused sexually or otherwise, so there's no big cause why I'm like this.
I just think I would have developed differently, and probably been a different person with (nonrelative) females in my life. From what I read, this is common in cis men with severe social problems. Lack of positive experiences with females takes its toll.

I'm not bitter about it. It is what it is.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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