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I think I'm genderqueer

Started by Sophie, October 31, 2005, 06:43:20 AM

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Sophie

Hmm... I've been doing a lot of thinking lately, and analysing basically every single thought that runs through my head, so now I've created a lot of irritating self-doubt.

My basic conclusion is that mentally, I think I'm 70% male, and 30% female. (I'm biologically 100% female)
If I really had to, I could live my life in the female role, and be seen as being female by other people... I could live like that, if I really had to. It wouldn't be the preverbial end of the world.
However, I think that I would just be much, much happier, if people saw me as a male, as I feel more comfortable with that idea of a future, of a life.
I don't see myself making a relationship work as a female... well, the idea of playing the female role sexually just doesn't seem right... from the male point of veiw it just somehow makes so much more sense to me... I am probably not explaining this aspect very well... (from male perpective I'm either bisexual or gay... though I don't really know that for sure... :-\)

Yeah... I am very gender confused right now... :'(
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stephanie_craxford

Hello Steven,

Discovering who you are is definitely wrought with questions and self doubt's.  For some it's quite an easy matter, it's clear to them, but the there are those, like you, where it's just not that cut a dried.  Give it time and I'm sure that the answer will become clearer for you.

I'm not familiar with your health system, and as you are only 15,  are you able to see a therapist on your own or do you need approval from you parents.  You could possibly use the excuse that you have some personal issues you need resolved, but again it could be difficult to get that by your parents.  If after awhile you are still unable to resolve this, may be therapy is the way to go.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help with this, but I'm sure that there is someone here who can, or at least better advise you.

Chat later,

Steph
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unicorn

Hey Steven,
well, I think I'm genderqueer, actually, I know I am, but I haven't quite figured out what that means yet... so I don't know if I can be of much help to you.

The best advice for you while you're feeling like this, is to accept the confusion. It's okay to wonder about who you are. And if you give yourself time to work it out, possibly with the help of a therapist (I'm having a hard time finding a good one myself, but I do think Steph gives sound advice), you can and will find the answers to your questions. I know this is not as easy as it sounds, but if you stop worrying about the fact that you are confused, that takes away half the stress and allows you to focus on the actual questions. Knowing that there are others struggling with the same questions can help with that. Remember that you are 15 and you have time on your side.

Another thing I would suggest, is that you try to look at life from the perspective of what makes you happy. You say you could live as a woman, if you were forced. Well, guess what, nobody can really force you to live your life their way! It's not about would you survive, but would you truly be happy?

This approach helps me a lot:
Try to think only of yourself for a moment, not of what your life in this world, this society would be like:
Imagine you are travelling on a starship and by some accident to find yourself stranded on a planet where everything is possible. There are no societal rules on how to be male or female, no classmates in school, no parents telling you what to do... and science is very advanced on this planet, you can change your body into whatever you feel most comfortable and happy with. What would make you feel good? When you have some idea of what you really want, then you can start to worry about how to live your dream in the real world. Again, this is may not at all make your real life easier, but to be able to dream freely can also be liberating and give you confidence in yourself.

Finally, I've been writing a bio of myself (when I work up enough courage, I'll request a blog and post it all here at Susan's) to try and understand how I got to where I am in life now. One of the things I've noticed is that being genderqueer for me means that I have a very real desire to live as a man, but I am also quite happy the other half of the time in my female role/body. However, the feeling that there's something missing is always there, and the frustration that comes with it. It's a persistent desire, but the need to live as the opposite sex is not all-consuming and overwhelming.

Of course, genderqueer may not in the end be an accurate description of who you are...  but maybe it helps you to compare your own feelings to mine.

I hope this helps you... and, if you do continue to feel lost and confused, a therapist may indeed be able to help you further.

Good journey!
Alex
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Sophie

QuoteThis approach helps me a lot:
Try to think only of yourself for a moment, not of what your life in this world, this society would be like:
Imagine you are travelling on a starship and by some accident to find yourself stranded on a planet where everything is possible. There are no societal rules on how to be male or female, no classmates in school, no parents telling you what to do... and science is very advanced on this planet, you can change your body into whatever you feel most comfortable and happy with. What would make you feel good? When you have some idea of what you really want, then you can start to worry about how to live your dream in the real world. Again, this is may not at all make your real life easier, but to be able to dream freely can also be liberating and give you confidence in yourself.
Actually that was helpful... thanks.

And also thanks to Steph... at least time is something I do have. ^-^

Hmm.... I think I will just tell my parents the truth and hope they understand... because I need a therapist... and as my mum is a nurse, she'll probably be able to get in contact with an appropriate one... *crosses fingers and waits for a good time to tell them*
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Cassandra

Okay Guy's,

Geeez, men are so lazy! The women just have to take and point you in the right direction. lol

From the Wiki:

QuoteA genderqueer person is part of a group of people who do not feel that they fit into the traditional two-gender system. As with any other groups that may be aligned with transgender identities, the reasons for identifying as genderqueer vary.

There are different modes of being genderqueer, and it is an evolving concept. Some believe they are a little of both or feel they have no gender at all. Others believe that gender is a social construct, and choose not to adhere to that construct. Some genderqueers do fit into the stereotypical gender roles expected of their sex, but still reject gender as a social construct. Still other people identify as genderqueer since, though they are cisgendered, they do not fit many of society's expectations for the gender in which they identify.

Some people use "genderqueer" as a politicized version of the term androgyne, which describes persons who have the gender identity of both a man and a woman or neither.

The term genderqueer can (but does not necessarily) include any transgender person. These individuals challenge the social norms of gender definition, in much the same way as homosexual and bisexual individuals challenge the social norms of sexuality.

Some genderqueers identify sufficiently with one gender to use conventional pronouns, others prefer that one use gender-neutral pronouns to refer to them, such as sie" and "hir" or singular "they" instead of her/his, some alternate between different pronouns, and some prefer the use only of their name and no pronouns at all.

So there you have it. basically anyone is genderqueer who so identifies. Confusion is a constant state for most TG's before they finally decide to define themselves rather than let other people define them. I'm generalizing or maybe paraphrasing. Maybe I'm linguisticqueer. ;D In the dictionary under confusion is a picture of most of the people on this forum. So don't feel like the only palm tree on the island. ;D

Ya'll be cool and oh yeh by the way. BOO!

Cassie
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stephanie_craxford

QuoteOkay Guy's,

Geeez, men are so lazy! The women just have to take and point you in the right direction. lol

I hope you weren't classifying me a guy, let alone one who is lazy...
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KyleW

Steven-

The one bit of advice that I can offer is not to fret about things.  Take things one step at a time.  Slow down a bit.  Counselling by a trained professional in this area is one of the best things that you can do for yourself.  They will assist you in working through you confusion so that eventually you will understand what everything means.  There are some resources online that may help in locating a TG sensitive therapist.  For example, http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resources/  has a fairly good listing of TG counselors in the midwest.  You need to take care, however, when selecting a counselor since some counselors are not sensitive to TG issues.  Also, do not expect answers the first time you go to counseling.  Gender is a very tough cookie to crack and it may take many sessions to find answers to your questions.


--Kyle
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Cassandra

Why Steph! I'm shocked.  :icon_yikes: I was addressing the guys. Actually I was just razing Steven and Alex a little. The real point was that Steven was wondering if perhaps he might be genderqueer when the definition is really unclear. No wonder someone might be confused when the definition is itself fluid.

To be honest there is an awful lot of faith being placed on therapists in this case. To be sure a therapist can be helpful if the therapist guides rather than directs. But who came up with the definition of genderqueer? A therapist? Yet the definition is non committal. As I said by definition anyone could consider themselves genderqueer if they so decided.

I wonder if genderqueer is even a valid classification considering the ambiguity of the definition.

Just my thoughts,

Cassie

P.S. I have now had several glasses of wine so consider the source.  :icon_drunk:
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unicorn

Cassie!
rotfl... of course, the wiki, duh...

lol... not a valid classification...

you crack me up! :D

anyways, in a situation this ??? it's best to keep laughing!

thank you
Alex

(PS: seeing the effects: gimme some of that wine, please! :) )
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ATG

I'm very glad to be genderqueer/gender-gifted/beyond-gender. While doing a search for some specific references to genderqueer, I stumbled upon this thread. Please allow me to share with all of you an experence I had that really captures a lot of the feelings I have around my gender. I'm very comfortable with having an undefinable gender, even as I process the questions raised around the experience I'm about to describe. (I posted about this previously on the genderqueerrevolution Yahoo listserv, but I think this fits in this discussion as well.)

I was out and about with a good friend a few weeks ago, and I purposely went without binding, in a fairly clingy T-shirt (and though they sag, my breasts still are a bit prominent when I don't bind, and frankly, I wish they were bigger) and a matching skirt (my favorite skirt, actually, my most favorite and oft-worn article of clothing). We went to West Hollywood, the "gay" part of the Santa Monica Blvd. strip, to do a variety of errands. These errands took us to an outdoor taco stand, a bakery called Sweet Lady Jane's (apparently quite a popular destination), and a yogurt place.

No one said anything to me, though I noticed some looks, at the taco stand. I took a "calculated risk" with this little experiment. I felt like West Hollywood, the "gay" part of town, while still steeped in genderism and some amount of gay (non-trans) male privilege, would be a safe enough place to practice feeling and outwardly expressing my genderqueerness.

At the bakery, however, something interesting happened. My friend, while a genderqueer individual herself, might appear to others like a traditionally-gendered woman (not saying that's who she is, just how she might be perceived by others).  At the bakery, with the two of us standing together in front of the counter, the person who served us said something like, "Hello ladies, uh, guys, what can I get you?"

Well! I'm not sure how I feel about that. Interesting that the person behind the counter seemed to need to group both my friend and me into the same gender marker. Or perhaps because "guys" has become a gender neutral term in this city.

To tell you the truth, part of me rejoiced and part of me grieved when I heard him say what he said, as he continued to make sure to use male references with me throughout the business transaction. I said nothing to contradict him, nor did I give him any particular "look" to validate or invalidate his gender choice for me. I have come to the realization that even if I were to walk up and down the Blvd in a string bikini, my fleshy bits, my breasts, hanging out for all the world to see, because I have, at least for now, some facial hair, the pronoun and gender references would automatically default to "he" and male (It's always the hair, isn't it. Why can't women and other non-male genders have facial hair?) I sometimes feel badly about that, and sometimes I feel good about that, and sometimes both at the same time, and for different reasons each time. Regardless of whether I am "Sir'ed" or "Ma'am'ed,"  I always feel a little bit of loss and a little bit of triumph each time, awash in many different feelings and thoughts. Yes, sometimes I do get Ma'am'ed even when I'm actually trying for a more masculine and/or male presentation, and sometimes when I tell people this, particularly FTMs, they'll say, "No, that could never happen, you look so male to me!" never realizing that while to them their words mean validation and acceptance, to me, their words feel like a partial erasure AS WELL AS validation.

Though I live most of my life as a "guy," whatever that means, I want to experience life as a perceived woman again in specific contexts. I want to be able to go to a dyke bar and be perceived as a dyke. I want to be able to tell my friends that I AM a dyke, and that a part of me still resonates with dyke energy without them telling me, "But you're NOT a dyke, you never can be, because you're _fill in the blank_." I feel deeply hurt even now that some of my friends and chosen family have said to me that they could never accept me as FTM or as a dyke or whatever else because my "choice" to be genderqueer automatically and by definition (theirs, not mine) disqualifies me from also having other real and valid parts of my gender mosaic, including "FTM" and "dyke," whatever these things mean to them.


Thank you for letting me share.
-ATG
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unicorn

Hey ATG,
welcome to the forums! Would you care to post an intro in the introductions section? Also, please read the site rules https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html
here.

Thank you  very much for sharing that story, ATG.
I can relate to what you say, about always feeling a triumph and a loss, no matter how people address me. It's always just part of who I am, the part that they find the easiest to see, not the whole me or how I want to be seen.

Again, welcome ATG, I'm glad this genderqueer section of the forum is coming to life again... hope you stick around and join in the discussions!
I look forward to talking to you!

cheers,
Alex aka Lisette aka unicorn
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Kendall

Some more early posts that new members that may do good in looking over again.

Kendra
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Vanessa V.

I find it comforting to read about the genetically female androgynes/genderqueers...

Its..... I dunno.... its like the problem is not just a guy thing...

Which is comforting..... it's like your not alone, you know?

Definitely take your time.... no need to be rushing things.... thats how I've done it, and I'm pretty happy with it

Hopefully we'll see you more around here!

-Nessa :)
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seldom

Quote from: Vanessa V. on September 24, 2006, 02:59:52 AM
I find it comforting to read about the genetically female androgynes/genderqueers...

Its..... I dunno.... its like the problem is not just a guy thing...

Which is comforting..... it's like your not alone, you know?

Definitely take your time.... no need to be rushing things.... thats how I've done it, and I'm pretty happy with it

Hopefully we'll see you more around here!

-Nessa :)

There are genetic males that are androgynes, but they tend to be rather sheltered lot outside of big cities and Europe.  A big part of the reason has to do with fear, plain and simple.  The consequences for genetic males who choose to express thier androgyny can be alot worse then genetic females.  I can't remember how many times my parents were warning me all the time to be careful when I walked out the door with makeup when I had long hair. 
If you do live in a big city finding androgynes is much easier, and you also realize that there is no sexual bias with regards to androgynes and people who identify themselves in that way.     

I will say that there are more genetic females who identify themselves as genderqueer.  But this largely has to do with the outright political nature of claiming to be genderqueer, and there is a strong connection to the genderqueer movement and feminist philosophy.  This has a large part of the reason there are more genetic females who make claim to be genderqueer.  Most genetic men who might have gender identity issues, but are not full blown TS might not even get exposed to the philosophical grounding that comes from claiming one is genderqueer, unless they have some established connection to the queer community,  or have had a gender studies course in college (I had both, I am a bit of social historian with regards to the history of Androgynes).  It is really a lack of intellectual and cultural basis that is a bit of a barrier for genetically male androgynes from claiming themselves as genderqueer, but also a lack of confidence.  Saying one is genderqueer though is a bit different then saying one is transgendered.  While it is not hard and fast, it is revolutionary term, one that says you find yourself unbound by the societal constructs regarding gender.  I think the best definition is probably found when somebody said they were gender gifted or beyond gender.  It is the realization one is blessed rather then cursed when it comes to gender identity.   

There is a quick and assured method with regards to finding the genetic males out there who do identify themselves as androgynes.  Music scenes often become the social outlet for androgynes in big cities.  This has been the case since David Bowie (and 70's glam) and has continued ever since.   The music community tends to have fewer limits with regards to gender constructs and really offers a better opportunity for self expression, so it tends to attract androgynes who may have no other outlet that they know of.  At least this is what I have noticed from the broader indie and folk communities.  While not all genetic males who are androgyne are found in music communities, I do know that the ones who are more open and honest about thier gender identity tend to be found there.  There is also alot of genetic females who are androgynes and genderqueer in these communities as well.  I am pretty sure the visual arts community is the same way, I just do not get exposed to it a whole lot.   

Regarding the original post.   Confusion is part of the package, at least initially.  While you may be able to live your life one way or another, you may not be happy and have clarity with life.  Never compromise who you are though.

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Kendall

I have seen 4 main communities (that come to mind quickly) accept androgynes easily.

Goth
Anime/Japanese
Furry
Rock/Glam Rock/punk

Probably more, but those are 4 that come in mind.

Working in a book store, I meet a lot of the furry/anime androgynes. A few of the others from time to time. This city has a university, so attracts a lot of young people, that havent been scared into suppression yet as much.

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Shana A

QuoteSaying one is genderqueer though is a bit different then saying one is transgendered.  While it is not hard and fast, it is revolutionary term, one that says you find yourself unbound by the societal constructs regarding gender.

Seldom, I really like your post. Much of what you're saying resonates deeply for me. I agree that stating oneself to genderqueer can be seen as more politically charged, especially to non-queer people. I remember many years ago when I came to the conclusion that changing my physical sex wasn't the answer for me, that living somewhere in-between genders was the right thing for me. Various friends asked me why I had to be so political or in your face about gender. Yes, it is political, I told them, but I'm not doing it for that reason. I express it because my gender cannot be constrained within the limits of the binary gender system. Interesting that people see that as political, as it certainly challenges their beliefs.

I live in a rural area, which can make it hard to live as openly androgynously as I might wish. Living true to my heart is very important to me, but being safe is an issue. I have no desire to end up as another statistic.

I'm also a musician, I think some music people are more open to gender queer attitudes, but I've also seen a lot of resistance in the folk music worlds where I reside.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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seldom

Actually I really meant to say the anti-folk scene.  For the most part though, the anti-folk scene in many places is the folk scene.  At least that is the case in the Chicago area right now. 
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