Trans and mental illness (possible trigger warning)

[spacerace]

I think it is a matter of scale.

Better lifestyle choices, talk therapy, and time can correct mild depression. CBT, exposure, environment changes can help anxiety.

But when you get into bipolar territory, a diagnosis of Bipolar 1 disorder usually means there was a state of real psychosis experienced and observed by the doctor.  As in, you heard voices - saw things that were not real - believed yourself to be a magical messiah  - believed people are really out to get you, etc. This stuff really happens, and while psychosis is mostly associated with schizophrenia - it's a feature of bipolar too. 

So, end point - please be careful of lumping all forms of bipolar disorder in with 'things that better lifestyle choices can heal'.  Because experiencing psychosis is freaking terrifying, and is definitely not something that can be touched by alternative medicine.

also - the medication works. It takes forever sometimes to find something that works for you, but current medication is so awesome it can even do specific things like still suicidal ideation.  Medication prevents bipolar cycling, it can slam down a manic attack before it gets out of control, and it can lift you up enough that you realize the world hasn't completely defeated you.

[Kevin Peña]

I know this might be an unpopular opinion but I think heavily medicating children causes a lot of damage.

I agree. Either the disease doesn't actually exist, it's overdiagnosed, or the drugs simply exacerbate the problem, which is 99% of the time. Frankly, I don't like hopping kids up on drugs being an accepted solution.

[AlexD]

I agree. Either the disease doesn't actually exist, it's overdiagnosed, or the drugs simply exacerbate the problem, which is 99% of the time. Frankly, I don't like hopping kids up on drugs being an accepted solution.

99%? Gosh, that doesn't sound like a made-up number at all.

[Kevin Peña]

99%? Gosh, that doesn't sound like a made-up number at all.

It's the effectiveness several drugs promise, even though side effects for antidepressants include suicidal thoughts  . If anything, drugs used to treat mental disorders worsen the problem 100% of the time since they don't really fix the problem, but lead to dependency on drugs and several unpleasant side effects. Kill the problem, don't just treat it.

[spacerace]

It's the effectiveness several drugs promise, even though side effects for antidepressants include suicidal thoughts  . If anything, drugs used to treat mental disorders worsen the problem 100% of the time since they don't really fix the problem, but lead to dependency on drugs and several unpleasant side effects. Kill the problem, don't just treat it.

The problem is a physical problem and can be killed effectively with medication.

Would you tell someone not to take chemotherapy because they will just worsen the problem? Because that's the same line of argument you are making here.

This important because you're basically saying that people who are truly mental ill should just be able to think their way out of it given enough time and healing.

[Kevin Peña]

That is not anything close to the argument I'm making. A tumor is not a mental illness. Its an uncontrolled nutrient-sucking growth. If it leads to a change in cognitive process, that's a symptom of the tumor, not an independent problem.

What I'm talking about are antidepressants, Ritalin, and other drugs used to "treat" problems by turning people into zombies.

[AlexD]

It's the effectiveness several drugs promise, even though side effects for antidepressants include suicidal thoughts  . If anything, drugs used to treat mental disorders worsen the problem 100% of the time since they don't really fix the problem, but lead to dependency on drugs and several unpleasant side effects. Kill the problem, don't just treat it.

More made-up statistics. Do you really think that doctors just throw their patients a box of pills and say "good luck"? When I was diagnosed with AS, I was prescribed no drugs, but my parents were given advice on how to deal with an autistic child. When I visited my GP about my depression -- which was so bad I had actually purchased the tools to commit suicide and was this close to using them -- he gave me a prescription for antidepressants and a referral to a psychologist.

Medical professionals know perfectly well what treatments their patients need in order to get better, and they will do their best to prescribe the most effective ones, whatever they might be. That is their duty as doctors, and the reason why they spent a decade learning how to be doctors.

[spacerace]

It's the same argument. Mental illnesses kill people - they degrade their lives to the point they experience greater percentages of disease than the general population, they literally kill them when people commit suicide, they ruin a person's quality of life and render them unable to participate productively in society.
Having a true mental illness, and that can even include major depression - means excruciating, life destroying, reality ending pain.

Medication can fix that for a lot of people. So what if it has side effects? Tell you what, mild tolerable side effects are way worth being able to return to sanity.

Additionally - some mental illnesses, especially mood disorders, are neuro-degenerative.  Yes, that means they eat your brain away. You just keep getting worse. In bipolar disorder, it is called kindling. The image here is your brain is burning.

Guess what is physically proven to stop that? Mood stabilizers. Even better - they act as neuro- regenerators.  You get back brain function! Sounds good to me. These drugs started out (and still are) also anti-convulstants. We realized they helped people with mood problems as an afterthought. Isn't science freaking awesome?

I know alternative medicine makes you feel good because living a healthy lifestyle is truly empowering, but in reality - it is 2013 and science is starting to make things fantastic. Enjoy it, don't fear it.

[DriftingCrow]

Let me see if I understand you correctly... you believe that doctor-prescribed drugs don't correct chemical imbalances, but that herbalist-prescribed drugs do correct chemical imbalances, and therefore drugs are bad? Huh? Why do you think that is? Because of your own personal experiences and a handful of anecdotes? Do you really think that the experiences of, what, five, ten people is superior to a double-blind clinical trial on hundreds of patients? Or that some guy who once read a book on herbs knows better than an entire community of professional scientists who devote their lives to carefully studying the effects of chemicals on the human body?

There is no such thing as "alternative medicine": there is only stuff that works, and bull->-bleeped-<-. I'm sorry that you and your friends have had poor experiences with medication, but please, don't fall into the trap of thinking that "alternative" therapy works just because you got lucky with it, or that real medicine is bad because it has flaws.

Don't forget medicine isn't perfect, up into the '70s or '80s doctors told women not to go jogging because it would make their uterus fall out and cause them to grow facial hair.

Also, there's money to be made every time someone gets diagnosed with some kind of "mental illness" so I find it perfectly reasonable that some people are skeptical about the number of diagnoses of mental illness. Of course some things are legit and a child or adult needs some form of medication, but there's so many kids with ADHD that are simply showing signs of just being a child that years ago wouldn't have been considered abnormal behavior.

(And of course, alternative therapy isn't perfect either and there's a lot of people of there who are also just trying to make money and the stuff they make isn't FDA tested or approved.)

Edit: fix typo

[Liminal Stranger]

Don't forget medicine isn't perfect, up into the '70s or '80s doctors told women not to go jogging because it would make their uterus fall out and cause them to grow facial hair.

If that were true, I would jog every day for hours. Screw hip pain, take my organ of doom!

[AlexD]

Heh, I never said it was perfect. But it doesn't need to be perfect to be the best option. People are awfully quick to point out that there's money to be made in selling drugs, but they forget just how much money is spent testing those drugs and making sure they really work before giving them to patients. Alternative therapies don't get that kind of background check -- at least not by the people peddling them. Funnily enough, when they do get tested, they often turn out to be ineffective.

And the ones that do turn out to be effective? They lose the "alternative" label and start being called "medicine".

[spacerace]

Don't forget medicine isn't perfect, up into the '70s or '80s doctors told women not to go jogging because it would make their uterus fall out and cause them to grow facial hair.

Also, there's money to be made every time someone gets diagnosed with some kind of "mental illness" so I find it perfectly reasonable that some people are skeptical about the number of diagnoses of mental illness.

Medication only improves through use and research. Finding new ways to fix things is really expensive and needs to be paid for somehow, so they need to market. Are drug companies evil? Yes, so some of it gets over-prescribed. You can't throw out medication because it has some negative issues when holding yourself to impossible standards just means no progress is ever made.

Expressing skepticism is one thing and I agree with it being way more prevalent now then it needs to be because of the culture, but blanket statements about how medication isn't effective ever, or that natural methods can solve all, undercuts the reality of mental illness as a true disease, which is actually a bit offensive for people who really have to struggle and live with it.

[DriftingCrow]

Heh, I never said it was perfect. But it doesn't need to be perfect to be the best option. People are awfully quick to point out that there's money to be made in selling drugs, but they forget just how much money is spent testing those drugs and making sure they really work before giving them to patients. Alternative therapies don't get that kind of background check -- at least not by the people peddling them. Funnily enough, when they do get tested, they often turn out to be ineffective.

And the ones that do turn out to be effective? They lose the "alternative" label and start being called "medicine".

I am well aware of the millions of dollars spent in testing drugs and all the years of hard work that goes into it, then the money comes in later. I am not saying they shouldn't make money on drugs, but I was saying that I find it reasonable to think that some children are being overdiagnosed because doctors and pharmaceutical companies make money off of sick people. Keep people sick or thinking they are sick brings in business. I do agree with what spacerace said earlier, sometimes people need some drugs to snap them out of it and bring them to a level where talking therapy could work. I just agree with inside that some of the numbers of children being diagnosed with mental illnesses is a bit alarming when it is perfectly normal for a child to not want to pay attention to a boring math lesson at the age of 6, or to have some ups and downs in their mood. I also agree that sometimes a patient should do their own research and decide whether or not they want to blindly follow the directions of a doctor, who isn't a God, or go and try something they'd find more suitable; technically chiroprators are considered "alternative medicine" but I am glad I was referred to one when my wrist got messed up at work instead of getting wrist surgery done.

Either way, I wasn't trying to start a fight over whether or not the medical industry is a giant evil corporation; and I know I probably didn't explain things correctly and might just be confusing everyone. Sorry Simon for contributing to bringing this off topic. 

[AlexD]

Nah, it's my fault this went off-topic. Scepticism is a red button topic for me, I suppose, and I let my desire to argue (hoo boy, do I ever love to argue) get the better of me. Apologies, everyone.

[Kevin Peña]

I just agree with inside that some of the numbers of children being diagnosed with mental illnesses is a bit alarming when it is perfectly normal for a child to not want to pay attention to a boring math lesson at the age of 6, or to have some ups and downs in their mood. I also agree that sometimes a patient should do their own research and decide whether or not they want to blindly follow the directions of a doctor, who isn't a God, or go and try something they'd find more suitable;

Exactly.

Technically, this "digression" is my fault, but I don't see what's wrong here. We're transgender individuals talking about mental disorders. 

[spacerace]

Exactly.

Technically, this "digression" is my fault, but I don't see what's wrong here. We're transgender individuals talking about mental disorders. 

Yeah, I just get serious because I had to be convinced of the effectiveness of medication and now I have the zeal of a convert. sorry for contributing to the diversion.

[Shang]

My question is, does anyone else have a mental illness (no, you don't have to say what it is if you're uncomfortable doing so) that is unrelated to being trans? If so, do you also think of being trans as another mental illness or something possibly effected by the mental illness you have?

Depression and social anxiety.

It's rather complicated with me, but I'll try to explain it out.  It's going to be a bit long (maybe) since I have to give a little bit of background on my life.

When I was 3, I became paralyzed from the chin down due to Guillain-Barré Syndrome.  At this point in time, my personality did a complete 180.  My dad and mom both say it was like a flip had been switched.  Before I was happy and I was very bubbly and willing to talk to others.  Afterwards I became more withdrawn and I was no longer bubbly.  [My dad said once that it was like the soul had been sucked out of me.]  The personality change is understandable as nearly dying does things to you even at that age.

I would suffer from flare-ups until I was 18 [knock on wood] so it was usually on my mind.  There was always the possibility I would die if I had a flare-up (which could be triggered from something as simple as a cold) and I knew that, even when I was 7.   On top of knowing this  I had problems making friends.  I was made fun of because of how I walked [I have the gait of a horse (I forgot the technical term)] and my personality was never truly outgoing.  I didn't care for people for a variety of reasons though I desperately wanted friends; I just couldn't get myself out there because I was scared [-insert social anxiety disorder-].  Depression went hand-in-hand with this and I have been struggling with depression for as long as I can remember.  It melded nicely with the SAD in that it helped produce someone who lacked motivation to go out and was very nervous in social situations. (I had no true friends until I was 21.)

Gender problems never ever crossed my mind because of my preoccupation with knowing I could die at any time and because I lacked friends.  I just wanted to be a normal kid and I had no time to think about what was between legs so gender problems never contributed to the depression and social anxiety early on in my life.

When I finally had a handle of my other problems [minus not having friends] I could focus more on me and understand more about my own personal identity.  It is affected by my depression and social anxiety in that I'm scared about transitioning and being viewed as different.  It also might seem so much worse because of my depression though I can't be certain as I can't remember a time where I was ever truly happy.

It's also been affected in that I don't have the same experiences that many trans* people report.  I don't ever remember thinking "I'm a boy" when I was a kid or even thinking "I want to be a boy".  I don't remember anything like that earlier than the age of 16.  It often makes me feel like many trans* people don't belief me when I say I'm trans* and I know it's affecting my parents' ability to believe me.

[Darkflame]

I just agree with inside that some of the numbers of children being diagnosed with mental illnesses is a bit alarming when it is perfectly normal for a child to not want to pay attention to a boring math lesson at the age of 6, or to have some ups and downs in their mood

You see, it's weird. Some kids are medicated at the flick of a switch, over developmentally appropriate behavior. But then there are kids like me, who were acting so beyond messed up for years, with a blind eye turned for the most part, or an explanation of "Oh it's just hormones" or even worse, the assumption that I was a bad kid. I was hospitalized four times and saw my psychiatrist for over a year and a half before even gave me a bipolar diagnosis. The system in and of itself doesn't usually push to give young people diagnosises and medication. It's either the kid is acting extremely messed up in some way, or the parents or somebody is pushing for it. At least from what I saw where I was, my personal experience. Could be different in different places 

[KamTheMan]

ADD, Anxiety, and Depression.

[anibioman]

For myself, it's like "which came first, the chicken or the egg"...am I trans because I'm mentally ill, or am I mentally ill because I'm trans?

im the same way with dysphoria and depression. I'm depressed and i have ADHD which isn't quite a mental illness. I'm ok with the depression and ADHD at the moment.