What do you think of this (from transgender sub-forum)

[aleon515]

I usually read the transgender section because I don't identify as "transsexual" anyway. (Or maybe it's the word I don't like).  But occassionally it gets a bit hostile. I read this:
"Initially, an FtM will reasonable expect, depression, mood swings and agression. Much like any teenage boy.

Eventually, that settles down and they should all develop into fine young men, broad shoulders, big muscles, self confidence and self respect.

If an FtM simply cannot deal with the process, they can choose to stop it, quite easily."

I have heard a lot of people describe what FTMs go thru as "adolescence" (actually should apply to MTFs as well), which makes sense. And I have heard of people becoming more moody and irritable, but not the "depression and aggression" necessarily. I think the later is a myth ("roid rage"), but wonder what you'all think.


--Jay

[Elspeth]

Are you wanting to keep this limited to an FTM discussion? Not wanting to derail, but I can tell you that I do tend to agree with you that MTF transition is readily describable as a second adolescence. I don't think there's too much controversy over that. I can understand it's not an easy topic to discuss without triggering some emotional responses, though. I don't think anyone actively wants it to be that way, or is seeking it (transition) out for some secondary gain.

I really need to find some of the papers I read back a decade or so ago on this. There were some fascinating comparisons of how FTM socialization differences pre-transition tended to favor some better outcomes for FTMs, mainly centered in suppositions about how their first "false" puberty tended to be handled in terms of the social supports and connections that tended to be available to them, compared to the typical MTF pattern of suffering through what seems like a torture exercise, most often in silence and without many meaningful social supports, unless the MTF was lucky enough to have negotiated some sort of uneasy place for herself among her female peers.

[Nero]

I really need to find some of the papers I read back a decade or so ago on this. There were some fascinating comparisons of how FTM socialization differences pre-transition tended to favor some better outcomes for FTMs, mainly centered in suppositions about how their first "false" puberty tended to be handled in terms of the social supports and connections that tended to be available to them, compared to the typical MTF pattern of suffering through what seems like a torture exercise, most often in silence and without many meaningful social supports, unless the MTF was lucky enough to have negotiated some sort of uneasy place for herself among her female peers.

Eh, no idea where you're going with this. But I certainly had no social support or connections at all during my first puberty. It was a death and I treated it like one.

Anyway, far as the topic, I'm going to go back to my usual observation - people give hormones too much credit. All this 'depression, mood swings, and aggression' happened the first time. Without the aid of T. I'm actually less moody and aggressive on T than E. Less depressed? That one's debatable.

T has nothing to do with aggression or libido people! At least not in my case.

[Kevin Peña]

Roid rage!! Kidding!

Anywho, getting used to hormones and their effects is tantamount to a second puberty. For example, MTFs have to deal with breast growth, increased emotions, etc.

[bojangles]

Only issue I've had with aggression post T has been when hormones were out of balance. Not just T, but also thyroid.

Overall, I'd say the effects of estrogen were much worse, an obvious observation only clear to me in hindsight. I always hated everything it did to my body, but didn't realize the emotional and mental effects it had until they started to subside.
The teenage boy is alive and well, as evidenced by carelessness, wanting to run, jump, climb and build stuff, a newfound interest in porn, and thinking anything related to the penis is hysterical. But I got no more desire to fight than I did before, and am probably better at being reasonable because it has become so important to be a good man. Am sure it is probably different for each of us, which was also true the first time around.

[Elspeth]

Eh, no idea where you're going with this. But I certainly had no social support or connections at all during my first puberty. It was a death and I treated it like one.

Please don't make too much out of something I read a decade ago and may well misremember. Certainly not trying to suggest FTMs have things easier, apart from the often noted difference that people are not usually quite as puzzled that a "woman" would want to become a "man" as opposed to the associations that tend to be culturally loaded for the other version. If I can find the studies, I'll be sure to share the links, since the full version is undoubtedly more nuanced than my shorthand version was.

[Natkat]

I heard the agression, moodswing and such before but not the depression.

I personally got less depressed and agressive on T. I will admit I got abit more restless on T, but on the other hands I felt less frustrated cause my body seamed to be working in my direction and it gave me some peace I didnt own before.

[Elspeth]

Eh, no idea where you're going with this. But I certainly had no social support or connections at all during my first puberty. It was a death and I treated it like one.n my case.

Okay, I started trying to find the essay I'd read, with no luck so far, but at least some of what I recall was similar to an abstract that I see you brought up here a few years ago.

Not really the same specific issues that I recall from the article I'm still trying to find, but some of the points seem relevant. Unfortunately, I don't have ready access to the full article, and am not in a position to go spending money on someone's possibly idiotic academic rambles.  The discussion in that old thread, though, is probably as relevant as anything that might be framed in sociology-speak.

The gist, in lay terms, of what I remember, at least, tended to center on the fact that FTMs tend more often to find connections to lesbian communities, as individuals. In my personal experience, I know that whatever social skills I developed did tend to come out of my ability to connect with women, both women who were part of a fairly open lesbian community during college, and earlier, in high school, with a small circle of friends, nearly all of whom were women. This is statistically and anecdotally not an experience that I tend to find all that common among MTFs, but is one that plays out quite differently, but still seems to be much more frequent (and often seens to be deeper and more far-reaching in many individual stories from FTMs than I recall mine being, especially in the early teen years).

Please let me be clear, that greater perceived frequency does not mean this is by any means true for all FTMs.

As with anything like this, statistical observations are meaningless when it comes to individual histories and narratives.

[Ayden]

I'm with Admin on this. I had no aggression, depression, libido changes or anything on hormones. My voice dropped, my fat moved around and I have a few whiskers now. That's it. I have seen a few guys (in a different group) use being in hormones as carte Blanche to be a-holes, because now they had an excuse.

I don't doubt that it never happens, but it certainly doesn't happen with the strength and frequency that people think. It's just hormones, it doesn't change who you are as a person. If you were calm and collected before hormones, there is a 99% chance you'll be the same. If someone is a jerk before hormones, they will be after, and if they feel like they have an excuse, they be slightly more of one.

[Adam (birkin)]

I'm with Admin on this. I had no aggression, depression, libido changes or anything on hormones. My voice dropped, my fat moved around and I have a few whiskers now. That's it. I have seen a few guys (in a different group) use being in hormones as carte Blanche to be a-holes, because now they had an excuse.

this pretty much. I have changed, but that's been personal growth and an increase in comfort levels and confidence as I become more confient with myself. I noticed a very slight change in how I feel emotions, physically (like, I cry less) but my thought processes about things that happen are the same.

I do think some people use hormones as a reason to be a-holes. The only adjustment, hormonally, that I had is when I changed to shots and I have a trough on my last day or two before my shot. I can be a bit weepy and sometimes get trapped in bad thoughts. But now that I recognize it, I try to work on it and just ride it through. It's really no different from slight emotional changes that may occur with PMS...just gotta learn to recognize it, live with it, and deal with it.

[Constance]

At about 2 months into HRT (estrogen, progesterone, and a testosterone blocker) and I certainly felt like I was going through puberty again. Considering the biochemical changes I was putting my body through, it was in essence a second puberty. At 41 years old.

Oh, joy.

[Nero]

In my personal experience, I know that whatever social skills I developed did tend to come out of my ability to connect with women, both women who were part of a fairly open lesbian community during college, and earlier, in high school, with a small circle of friends, nearly all of whom were women. This is statistically and anecdotally not an experience that I tend to find all that common among MTFs, but is one that plays out quite differently, but still seems to be much more frequent (and often seens to be deeper and more far-reaching in many individual stories from FTMs than I recall mine being, especially in the early teen years).

Ah, well I would tend to agree with that. Studies I've been reading recently strongly indicate that cis men with severe social issues tend to lack female companionship history. Female relationships are a vital part of socialization. I think my near complete lack in that area (aside from my mother) as well as only having negative experiences with females messed me up (for lack of a better term). Marriage is said to improve mental health for men, but not for women. Though this is probably due to most men's lack of female friendships rather than any romantic thing. There are just things you need from women. Imagine a world with only men in it. Total female rejection (even just friendship wise) can be disastrous. Wonder if this is why so many gay men nurture female friendships.

Would my first puberty have been easier if I had had females to share it with? I'll never know.

[Arch]

Female relationships are a vital part of socialization. . . . There are just things you need from women. Imagine a world with only men in it. Total female rejection (even just friendship wise) can be disastrous.

This definitely isn't what I want to hear. Except in childhood, I didn't have friendships with girls. After the first few years of puberty, I was actively avoiding friendships with "other" girls. I've never been close to any women, and, since adolescence, I've never been able to tolerate having more than one female friend at a time. They always wanted much more from me than I wanted from them, so I was always playing keep-away and wound up cutting them off at some point.

I have a sort-of friendship with a cis female right now, but I didn't initiate it, and she's obviously more interested in the friendship than I am. I feel a strong sense of obligation because we're colleagues, and it would look funny if I actively avoided her. That probably isn't healthy because I end up resenting her.

I guess everyone here knows how I feel about my female relatives, especially my mother.

I have been able to confide in a couple of women online, but one doesn't know I'm trans. I think the only reason I can talk to them is that these are intermittent and virtual friendships.

Admin, have you any references for all of this?

[Nero]

I'll look. I'm not saying there's 'proof' or anything. Just some stuff I've read. The main paper I'm talking about actually largely dealt with the disastrous consequences of hetereo males unable to form romantic relationships with females of which lack of female companionship through childhood and youth was a factor. You know how studies go. I know the 'mental health marriage angle' for men is pretty strong though.
Anyway, I believe it in my own case. Course your case sounds different to mine. I really suffered not having female friends. Used to cry about it throughout adolescence.
I had one or two try to befriend me at about 17, but the damage was done and I just was unable to get close to them. My mother is the only female I've never been afraid of. The women I've been intimate with sexually I barely knew.
I'm afraid at this point I lack the ability to get close to any female who isn't my mother. Some of the ladies on here are helping but again that's online only + I'm probably not as reticent since yall are male socialized and have being trans in common with me.

Anyway, sorry for the thread derail, Jay.

[aleon515]

Please don't make too much out of something I read a decade ago and may well misremember. Certainly not trying to suggest FTMs have things easier, apart from the often noted difference that people are not usually quite as puzzled that a "woman" would want to become a "man" as opposed to the associations that tend to be culturally loaded for the other version. If I can find the studies, I'll be sure to share the links, since the full version is undoubtedly more nuanced than my shorthand version was.

I have been quite out (except at work) about being trans. I think ftms pass way sooner but mtfs definitely have the advantage re: surgery. Emotionally, I think we all have to deal with the various emotions and so on from hrt and not from hrt. (I think there are a lot of people who would beg to differ on the libido. I have heard of people with no increase but they are very much in the minority, I am speaking of T here). I don't agree with the stuff on aggression. As for depression, I am not sure, isn't that awfully characteristic of trans people in general. (And a lot of other people as well.)


On a different note: Elspeth, I always like your posts. And being mom to an FTM, you are kind of a "member" here. (Wouldn't say that re: many moms of guys who post here.)

DianaP loved your roid rage picture.

--Jay

[Beth Andrea]

I usually read the transgender section because I don't identify as "transsexual" anyway. (Or maybe it's the word I don't like).  But occassionally it gets a bit hostile. I read this:
"Initially, an FtM will reasonable expect, depression, mood swings and agression. Much like any teenage boy.

Eventually, that settles down and they should all develop into fine young men, broad shoulders, big muscles, self confidence and self respect.

If an FtM simply cannot deal with the process, they can choose to stop it, quite easily."

I have heard a lot of people describe what FTMs go thru as "adolescence" (actually should apply to MTFs as well), which makes sense. And I have heard of people becoming more moody and irritable, but not the "depression and aggression" necessarily. I think the later is a myth ("roid rage"), but wonder what you'all think.


--Jay

I have two teen boys right now...ex and I have to be careful what we say, and how we say it, lest they fly off the handle. Teaching self-control and respect for others is one damn hard thing to teach to someone dealing with the aggressive aspects of T for the first time...and yes, they get moody and depressed, too.

And yes, MTF's go thru fem-puberty as well. Moody, depressed, anxieties about relationships, weight, boobs (Will they be too small? Will anyone notice--OMG what if they DO notice them? What if I start nippin' when it's cold?! etc etc)

[Nero]

(I think there are a lot of people who would beg to differ on the libido. I have heard of people with no increase but they are very much in the minority, I am speaking of T here).

It may be I'm a minority. Because other than the physical stuff like facial hair, voice etc, T really hasn't done anything for me. When I had my drug relapse, I fell out of the habit of taking it for months. Eventually I had a period, but nothing else changed. I didn't even notice a difference. Not even after I got clean. And lately I've ended up forgetting to take it for weeks and only remember when I shed a tear or something. 'Is that a tear? Oh, how long has it been since my last shot?'

Honestly, sometimes I don't even know why I still take it. I pass 100% regardless, my facial hair is off the hook and not going away. Neither is my deeper voice and I always had a pronounced male fat distro, so my body shape isn't going to revert. I'm basically only doing it now to keep back the blood dam. And probably some placebo effect of thinking it gives me 'man juice' or something. When I really don't notice a difference at all.

[Arch]

I for one did become more aggressive and easier to rile up. I found myself driving much more aggressively, bristling at inconsiderate people much more than usual, and being unreasonable in debates--I found that I wanted to "win" the argument, and that was more important than learning something or enjoying the discussion or being social with whomever I was talking to.

My driving was the first clue, and I didn't even notice that it was happening; my friend did.

I still need to watch it. And I still growl under my breath at slow people in the grocery store. I never did that pre-T, but now I can get so frustrated by them. I have to take a moment.

This doesn't mean that I was/am violent, and it doesn't mean that I had/have no control over it. It's not 'roid rage.

Some of my new aggressiveness is good and is undoubtedly due to greater self-confidence. For example, I'm much more likely now to state that I'm not happy with something. I'm much more likely to ask for what I want, even if it means I have to actively seek someone out. And so on.

P.S. My libido shot to the moon.

[Nero]

<snip> greater self-confidence.

God I wish it did that for me. I'd heard about that effect and really hoped for it. But I'm actually less confident (course I think that's some mental hangup not due to T). I really hoped T would do something for me mentally. I hate to put it like this, but I actually felt more like a man beforehand. Even my mom has said as much 'You were so much more of a guy when you were a girl.' My confidence is really shot to hell since transition. I'm more comfortable physically, and glad to be 'he'd' and 'sirred' and uh that's about it. The dysphoria's gone of course. Guess that makes it worth it.

[Arch]

I guess I should clarify. I'm MUCH more comfortable with my public face, so to speak. Inwardly, I still have a lot of that Pinocchio syndrome...not a real boy...hate these parts...this isn't right...it'll never be right...no gay man will ever want me...

You get the picture. My dysphoria over my body is almost as strong as before, except that my focus has shifted from my chest and my voice to my crotch.

I feel freer to just talk nowadays. I used to say things and have certain attitudes that people thought were strange for a girl. So I always got comments and consternation from other people. I became more and more careful about what I said. But now I can be much less guarded, and people either don't think anything of it or they say, "How typical for a guy" or even (a few times) "You wouldn't say that if you were a woman."

Public confidence, private pain. It's a huge damned improvement over where I was, but I tend to forget that.