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How to handle staring, laughing and pointing

Started by kira21 ♡♡♡, March 03, 2013, 05:30:50 PM

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Laura91

Quote from: Steph21 on March 03, 2013, 09:40:01 PMI know you don't mean that, but still, hmmm, I imagine some of them will think about it and regret it later, maybe not. Maybe that is wishful thinking. I find it hard to blame someone for being poorly educated though, or raised with no manners. They needed someone to tell them how it is.

Oh, I absolutely meant what I said. I don't say things that I don't mean. That isn't how I conduct myself.

Yes, you can blame someone for lack of education and being raised as an idiot.

I will give you an example:

When I was in second grade I heard one of my classmates make a racist comment about the size of an older girl's butt. She was probably in the fifth or sixth grade. He said the word N****r (I'm only censoring it because it would probably be censored later even though I despise censorship)

anyway...

He said the word at normal volume and then he whispered the word butt.

This struck me as odd. I come from a family full of racists and even though I was only 7 I didn't need anyone to tell me that racism is wrong. I just knew it in my heart that it was screwed up to be like that.

So yes I can and will blame stupid people for their lack of upbringing depending on what they do and say. That is the way it goes.
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muuu

#21
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AnarchoChloe

Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 03, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
Kia Ora Steph21,

How were you dressed when in the mall? I mean were you wearing a skirt or dress ?

I know that when one has made up their mind and adopts a "This is who I am-Stuff the world !" attitude, it can be quite hard to keep the Genie in the bottle, but at times it pays to drip feed the general public...

Now you might think "well stuff this, no way am I going back into the closet" , but for your children's sake it might be a possible solution to your problem... Besides it not really going backwards it's just putting the brakes on and dropping to a lower gear...For the time being ...

Just a thought...

Metta Zenda :)

No. No no no no no. The response to experiencing transphobic behavior should not be that we have to adjust or go back in the closet. The closet kills us. The closet makes us miserable on a daily basis and pushes a lot of us to the brink. Denying who we are because mainstream society is afraid is never the answer. It's difficult, but we need to be role models to those who are still closeted. For every one of us living our lives in the open, there are a half dozen afraid to show who they are, and that is not right. Especially if we are raising children, we need to create an atmosphere of openness and availability that helps demystify and make people more used to us. It is hard, and often unpleasant, but necessary. I think it's far more important to speak to those with us- allies, family members, children- to help use these incidents of hateful ignorance as teaching moments.
"By seeking to free others we find the strength to free ourselves."
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Ellieka

I think you generally have your heart in the right place, thinking of your children.

I'll just say this:

One of the biggest mistakes I made was going out with my kids before I was passable. While it would be ideal for society to be more tolerant and understanding, the truth is they are not. I embarrassed my kids and myself and quit possibly put them in harms way.

My oldest daughter lost a boyfriend because "her parent made him sick" of course she told him to stick it north up the south hole but still looking back I should have waited and after I saw what a wedge it was driving between my kids and I, I feel absolutely horrified about how I acted. It was selfish on my behalf

Now 4 years later and passable my kids love going out with me and we never get an awkward look. It was so worth the wait.

I'm not criticizing you at all, please don't think that... Just relating my personal experience. It's hard to slow down once you get rolling.
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Quote from: The Original Cami on March 04, 2013, 12:14:55 AM
One of the biggest mistakes I made was going out with my kids before I was passable. While it would be ideal for society to be more tolerant and understanding, the truth is they are not. I embarrassed my kids and myself and quit possibly put them in harms way.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 03, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
Now you might think "well stuff this, no way am I going back into the closet" , but for your children's sake it might be a possible solution to your problem...


Thanks folks.
I should explain... I go to the mall that is a couple of cities along from me so nobody will know us and I do not dress anywhere near anyone that they know.

Otherwise I am the camp andro man that I was before.

Is that OK do you think? I mean, they are not going to lose face in front of friends because of me, and we are in a 'safe' place, so I thought it was OK and good to get the kids feeling comfortable with things. Besides, only dressing in the house by myself was kind of making me feel shamed and cooped up and I think that was kind of clear.

:-S Feeling all confused.

Steph x

justmeinoz

One kid who had the nerve to ask why I sounded like a man, after Mum was staring as well, got the reply, "Ask your Mummy what throat cancer is."  Didn't say I had it, so not actually lying ;) but  should also help if someone with cancer of the throat speaks to them.

Also, as I believe the evil Cindy of Adelaide did call out, " It doesn't matter if you are gay, Jesus loves you." to  homophobic remarks.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Cindy

Hi Steph,

Don't hide.

There are at least four factors, you, your children,  the people in life and the toads, whatever age.

You are learning to be you and you have the confidence to be you and it is very important that you do not allow that to be sapped. Your children accept you and appear in no way uncomfortable with you, but you are concerned about the effect of bullies on them. The other people in the shops and life accept you and, like all reasonable people are accommodating and accepting you.

You are doing nothing wrong.

These toads are.

Personally I would carry a water pistol loaded with petrol, spray it over them and throw in a match. Unfortunately this seems to be frowned upon, although it does appear to be a sensible way to correct the growing imbalance in the gene pool.

Sorry joking.

The issue, to me, is that your children are being harassed and bullied. Your presentation is irrelevant. You are 'different' to what these bullies want and hence are a target, you could be a person of colour, a person of religion, a person wearing traditional costume. You may be handicapped, you may have a deformity, you my have a palsy or a a face mark or one leg or three legs.

It matters not.

Your children are being bullied and the law and security are to protect them and you.  Confronting children is chasing smoke, you need them to be found. Yes going to a shop and asking for security to be notified immediately because your children are being threatened is a good idea ( I would have thought shopping Mall security would recall the awful Bolger (?) situation). Photograph them and pass in the photo to security (I'm unsure of UK law).

If you are up to it. Stopping dead in the middle of the Mall and shouting. "Who owns these little bullies?". Reversing the situation. No one will come to help unless forced or paid. We need to force people to notice.

IMO We cannot walk away. We have to take responsibility because no one else will.

When and if you find the parents sue the hell out of them for not controlling their brats and causing pain and suffering to your children. Use a no win no pay lawyer and clean them out.

Just may thoughts BTW.

Cindy
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Jayne

In the UK you have to go very, very careful about taking pictures of minors, I know plenty of parents who have moaned that they have been told not to take pictures of school plays/sports days unless they have the permission of every parent, I get the impression that schools are just being over cautious.

As i'm not a parent I don't know for sure what the law is & how much these people are blowing things out of proportion.

BTW, I love the water pistol comment
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lydia_s

Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 03, 2013, 10:46:51 PM

How were you dressed when in the mall? I mean were you wearing a skirt or dress ?

Even though you are confident and out going, perhaps all you need to do to reduce this kind of thing happening, is [for the time being] to dress "androgynously" ...
There are three reason for this
1) It's a breaking in period- getting others/strangers used to the gradual metamorphosis you have begun...
2) Once on HRT and the hormonal cross gendering process starts, you can gradually introduce more and more feminine attire...
3) This will reduce any embarrassing moments that your children have to endure [ They also will gradually get use to the change] 

This is a good idea. The best idea in my mind.

I tend to stay goth, which is androgynous and non-conformist by its very nature, but always being in womens clothes I've been made fun of countless times. By kids, by teens, by adults, even seniors. Everybody. I feel like I'm embarrassing people I'm with even though they assure me they're fine with it.

What I try to do is put out this appearance of confidence. Like I'm fully aware of what I'm wearing and what I look like, and I really don't care what you think. When I hear a comment most of the time I smile and continue what I'm doing, not looking up, to subtly let them know I heard them and don't care. Usually it shuts them up. Sometimes it doesn't, and I usually let the humor wear itself out. The only times I've ever said anything was when they're adults and make really offensive comments. And even then I take the Bill Lumbergh approach.

The problem with dealing with them directly has been well described in the previous posts. In their eyes you're giving in and you can get yourself in trouble if you're not careful. Even if you're successful you're putting out a forest fire with a squirt gun. That's why I generally just deal with it. If you want to eliminate it all together you're gonna have to wait until you're completely passable. Then they won't have a reason to comment.

That's my view on this anyway.


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A

I don't think it works for everyone, and I don't know how effective it is for other people who are with you, but here's my all-powerful technique for things like that.

Be a daze.

Pretend not to notice. Act like it's not about you. Pretend not to understand. Always assume the best, to the extreme. If the laughing people address you, go "eh? uhm, yes? what?" naively, and only after pretending not to hear it until it becomes obvious you must have heard it.

If you manage to do that, you'll be hurt much less. For one, eventually, always acting like you don't notice, you might as well start noticing it less for real. Also, if it doesn't look like it affects you, people you are with should feel better. And finally, most bullies eventually get tired of throwing knives only to have them go through a ghost who doesn't even seem to hear the insults.

There's always a dilemma about the attitude to have when going out as a girl and not passing very well. Be too "low-profile" and you'll seem unsure of yourself, which will cause people to doubt you further, as well as attract the cruel type of bully, who enjoys sinking people who are low even lower. Be too "proud" and you'll overly attract attention, and people will look at you more, wondering more. And those bullies who feel must defend themselves or the planet from perceived threats (mostly illegitimate threats but anyway) will feel you're on the offensive and will attack.

I think the daze attitude is pretty useful, because it removes this dilemma. You're not being low and miserable, or high or confronting. You're just elsewhere, out of all that, and as long as your acting isn't so bad that you seem to be ignoring them (making them angrier), you're good.

In my 22 years of being bullied by tons of people, from family to classmates to strangers, all of which ended up giving up, I can certify that the naive daze technique has a wonderful potential. Now, many (most?) people have a strong urge to fight back when attacked, and for them, it might not be possible.

As for preventing these occurrences, I guess the only thing that can be done is to work on the passing. You can get people used to you or tired of laughing at you, but new people always have a potential to laugh at others at first.

There's also, perhaps, the choice of appearance, until you pass better. Someone who doesn't pass well and dresses all girly in a dress, make-up and jewelry might be laughed at for being an obvious "man in a dress", whilst the same person dressed in girls'-but-sort-of-andro clothes might just be regarded as a "geek" girl who doesn't care much about her looks, or someone on a busy day, or their gender might be confusing.

If people feel you're "attacking" the concept of gender by being bold, they are very prone to attacking you. But if you're keeping a lower profile, then to them, it'll feel much more an aggression than a "counter-attack" to attack you, and a huge proportion of people who might have laughed at you in the first case won't in this one. Besides, if people are confused, wondering about your gender, they might look at you funny, but they will be too busy asking themselves questions to attack you.
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
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Anatta

Kia Ora Steph,

Re: Dresses & Skirts verses Androgynous dress style/sense and the female 'psycho-sexual/social' gender identity...

Ask yourself this simple question

" Is it the clothes I'm wearing[or would like to wear] that makes me 'feel' like a female ?" or to put it another way" Doth the clothes maketh the woman?"

Answer..............................................................

Metta Zenda :)

"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

#31
Quote from: Steph21 on March 04, 2013, 01:47:50 AM

Thanks folks.
I should explain... I go to the mall that is a couple of cities along from me so nobody will know us and I do not dress anywhere near anyone that they know.

Otherwise I am the camp andro man that I was before.

Is that OK do you think? I mean, they are not going to lose face in front of friends because of me, and we are in a 'safe' place, so I thought it was OK and good to get the kids feeling comfortable with things. Besides, only dressing in the house by myself was kind of making me feel shamed and cooped up and I think that was kind of clear.

:-S Feeling all confused.

Steph x

Kia Ora Steph,

The way I see it you have two choices !

To Be Or Not To Be ?

1) A reluctant poster T girl on the front line, running the social gauntlet  [with children in tow]

2) A gradual  Assimilator  giving strangers[plus family, friends and "SELF"] time to adjust to the gradual changes


There's no right or wrong way, all roads 'eventually' lead to Rome... But which route do 'you' feel most comfortable taking ?

*Edited*

I should add...I don't know the age of your children, but I'm under the impression they are still quite young...And from what I gather, they are comfortable with 'the new you'...

So if you decide to take the androgynous 'slow' route you're not really denying who you are, you are just being a responsible and considerate parent who cares for her children's mental[and possibly physical] well being and also you're 'allowing' society time to adjust to the new you...In other words you're taking into account the consequences [holistically so to speak] that could arise from your actions-by attempting to minimise any possible impacts...

When I took the 'slow' route, my children's ages ranged from 5 to 11, this allowed time for me to smooth out any bumps in the road...


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Bastian

I didn't read everyone's posts but I just wanted to say, with regards to your littles, I think id it's important for you to be transitioning, then all the more benefit to your children. They will grow up to be more accepting of others. I think I read a study once that the children of parents who show extreme tolerance towards everyone, or who fall into the LGBT category themselves tend to raise extremely tolerant and kind children. I'm not sure how young your kids are, but look at it this way, while they may not understand now, one day they will and when they grow up they will not end up like those kids at the mall, they will be strong, confident individuals and they will treat everyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation with tolerance and respect.

For now I would encourage them to talk to you if they are concerned about how you were treated and explain to them, if they don't really understand yet, that how those kids are treating mommy is not good, everyone should be treated with respect and the reason those kids acted like that is because their parents haven't taught them any better and the best thing we can do is smile and when possible try to educate.

I think it's important to integrate your true self into their lives. Jut a small thought, if you make their lunches for school you could put little notes inside, Have a Good Day, love Mom. Something small that their friends won't really read much into but your children might see it, and since it's written down, may begin to really consider you as Mommy.

In any case I think you should focus on "Do I want to transition now?" and if the answer is yes, then do it. Your children will one day thank you for it, your transition will not just makes you happier, it will transform your children into loving, or at the very least, tolerant individuals.

I hope all of that didn't sound like nonsense  :-X
Started T in July 2012
Had Top Surgery on May 23rd, 2013

Where the wild things are...
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Emily Aster

Kids like that feed on weakness, real or perceived. Personally I would have tried my best to block them out and keep walking. They were clearly afraid of you when you turned your gaze to them so it wouldn't have ended in a confrontation, but that also told them that their words bothered you enough to make you stop walking.
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Hey hey...

I have been giving this some thought and there seem to be two schools of advice....

1. be yourself

2. Don't be yourself until you pass.

Its probably not difficult to see why I was really hoping people would just say number 1, and give me good reasons for that which boosted my confidence that I was doing the right thing, and maybe some advice that would make things go a bit smoother.

The fact that there was some advice that supported option two had been considered though, but I have to face the fact that I may never pass (sob sob, try to move on...) and then what do I do? never be me? Never go outside?

I don't actually know if I am strong enough to do that, but my children are everything, everything completely, so... yeah, problem times. I don't take anything here very lightly at all. It is simply how it is.

Steph.



Anna++

Are you a fan of Rush?  Here's a song that made me think of this thread!  Sometimes the best thing to do is know that you're a better person than they are and don't acknowledge that they're bothering you.

Quote
Thank your stars you're not that way
Turn your back and walk away
Don't even pause and ask them why
Turn around and say goodbye

Sometimes I blog things

Of course I'm sane.  When trees start talking to me, I don't talk back.



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Anatta

Quote from: Steph21 on March 05, 2013, 06:12:32 PM
Hey hey...

I have been giving this some thought and there seem to be two schools of advice....

1. be yourself

2. Don't be yourself until you pass.

Its probably not difficult to see why I was really hoping people would just say number 1, and give me good reasons for that which boosted my confidence that I was doing the right thing, and maybe some advice that would make things go a bit smoother.

The fact that there was some advice that supported option two had been considered though, but I have to face the fact that I may never pass (sob sob, try to move on...) and then what do I do? never be me? Never go outside?

I don't actually know if I am strong enough to do that, but my children are everything, everything completely, so... yeah, problem times. I don't take anything here very lightly at all. It is simply how it is.

Steph.

Kia Ora Steph,

You said you'll be starting HRT soon....So give it time to work its magic... You just don't know until you try !

Steph, how you handle things is your choice and advice is just that.... 'advice'...

And the best advice I was given was "If you want my advice...Don't take my advice !" Do what you feel is right for "YOU" !


Life is full of options and opportunities...


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Cindy

Some nice advice on Catherine's thread as well

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,136863.0.html

Ultimately we walk our own path. We can only discuss the steps.
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Dahlia

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 03, 2013, 07:54:54 PM
Consider smiling at them. I find that helps, when someone is staring. I smile back and try to show them the human inside.

That happens exactly the other way around to me.
Sometimes I just sense a man/boy is looking at me and when I notice that and look in his face...to see what's going on....he gives me a big, wide, radiating smile.

I invariably return that big, wide smile with a puzzled look on my face not smiling in return, always wondering if that big, wide, radiating smile is meant as some kind of reassurement.

It's something completely different from women/girls passersby who sometimes smile at me...and I honestly wonder why.

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ataraxiamachine

Hey, Steph,

I just want to say that I think you're doing a wonderful thing by being yourself and allowing your children to witness it. 

I remember when my children were quite small and I wasn't yet out, but a little girl asked me (at the door to the classroom, as they were being let out of school) "are you Noah's Mom, or his Dad?"  She asked in complete innocence, of course, but it still made me stop and wonder if my presentation could affect them in ways I hadn't yet considered.  About a year later Noah insisted, "Mom, you can just go into the men's room with me, noone's going to know the difference!"  (And he was right, of course)

Out of the mouths of babes, right?

You're always going to wonder if you're doing the right thing as a parent.  All that really matters in the end is: were you honest?  And from what you've said, you have been, and your children are all the better for it.  I think that one of the proudest moments in my life was when my eleven year old stood up to a kid on his baseball team, who was jeering at a kid that he perceived to be gay, and said, "so what if he is?  Romeo and Juliet were told they weren't supposed to be together, it's no different."

While his logic may not have been a hundred percent, he knew enough to stand up to the bully, and that's how I know that I've raised something special.  I don't see your children being any worse off for the experience.  As long as you're strong, they will be.
-Jake
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