Need to Pee in Arizona

[suzifrommd]

When transgender activists  "flooded the Arizona House of Representatives Wednesday to fight a proposed law that would have made it illegal for them to use the bathroom of their preferred gender."  This is what representative democracy should be about.

Jamie, I don't agree. Democracies recognize there are some basic rights that a legislature cannot take away. Example: Congress can make no law abridging freedom of speech or of the press. Minorities should not need to depend on their ability to "flood" a legislative body to keep their rights.

And if the right to relieve oneself safely is not a basic human right, I don't know what is.

[Constance]

So, it requires representative democracy to prevent, to borrow your phrase Jamie, "outrageous bigotry?" Because that's what this bill was about. It was written, proposed, and supported by outrageous bigotry that suggests the concepts of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are alienable rights.

I fail to see how anyone who actually believes in the documentation upon which this country was founded can propose and support such legislation, or even defend those who do.

[Alainaluvsu]

You cannot cede governmental police powers to private interests.  You can make them post signs or regulations.  That's about it.

However, if some random employee has a problem with the company not following the law... they can sue the company for breaking it, or possibly even call the police for knowingly aiding in breaking it.

[Jamie D]

So, it requires representative democracy to prevent, to borrow your phrase Jamie, "outrageous bigotry?" Because that's what this bill was about. It was written, proposed, and supported by outrageous bigotry that suggests the concepts of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are alienable rights.

I fail to see how anyone who actually believes in the documentation upon which this country was founded can propose and support such legislation, or even defend those who do.

Jamie, I don't agree. Democracies recognize there are some basic rights that a legislature cannot take away. Example: Congress can make no law abridging freedom of speech or of the press. Minorities should not need to depend on their ability to "flood" a legislative body to keep their rights.

And if the right to relieve oneself safely is not a basic human right, I don't know what is.

I am replying to these to posts together, because the cover much of the same ground.

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are examples of "Natural Rights," as Jefferson, et al, understood them.  Natural rights, sometimes called "human rights," are imbued by one's humanity.  Natural rights can not be taken away without consent, and are, in theory, beyond the reach of any just government.

Similarly, some legal rights are considered so vital, that they have receive special protection within a Constitution.  Some of these protected right are derivative of natural rights, such as infringements of conscience.  Natural and constitutional rights serve to establish relationships within a society, and to limit the power of government.

With that said, there exists no "natural right" to use a bathroom.  Bathrooms do not exist within a state of nature.  That society has established by statutory law and regulation, the construction of restrooms for the hygiene and convenience its members, it follows that those regulations should be debatable within the context of lawmaking.  One of the earliest stumbling block in the founding of the country, and the creation of a government, was the issue of majority rule versus minority rights.  The trick was to balance the two, and the method was informed, open debate as part of deliberative democracy.

I respect the process.  I do not always agree with the result.  And it is incumbent on me to become involved in the process, or accept the results as a bystander.

[BlonT]

Some don`t have a birthcertificate For some its state ALIEN mm  problem.
But for the girls its easy wear long skirts ! Go to cityhall and pee.Practice as it can be messy 
For the boys its tree or a alley
You can get a ticket but no sex asked 

[Constance]

Jamie I find your description to be extremely odd at the very least. You might respect the process, but I find your support for persons such as ourselves to be lacking tremendously.

It might not be a natural right to use a bathroom, but it's considered illegal in a great many places to relieve oneself anywhere but in a bathroom. Such "logic" creates a perfect situation in which we cannot be respected or supported as full members of society.

Which, in my opinion, is the intention of conservative activists.

{Edited for clarity. - CAM}

[gennee]

I'm gong to follow this. My trans brothers and sisters in Arizona, it's time to get busy and veto this piece of legislation. Hold the creator of it to task.

[ToriJo]

As I posted in a different thread, it's back.  SB 1045 now, a different bill the Republican Gentleman decided to gut and fill with his hate.  This one basically nullifies city ordinances that provide equal access and give businesses the right to discriminate.  It's up for a hearing tomorrow (Wed) afternoon.

[Misato]

Jamie I find your description to be extremely odd at the very least. You might respect the process, but I find your support for persons such as ourselves to be lacking tremendously.

Ditto that.

What's further distressing is this happening in one of the many states with absolute single party control.  If it gets legs, there will be no stopping it.

[Jamie D]

Jamie I find your description to be extremely odd at the very least. You might respect the process, but I find your support for persons such as ourselves to be lacking tremendously.

It might not be a natural right to use a bathroom, but it's considered illegal in a great many places to relieve oneself anywhere but in a bathroom. Such "logic" creates a perfect situation in which we cannot be respected or supported as full members of society.

Which, in my opinion, is the intention of conservative activists.

{Edited for clarity. - CAM}

I think this proposed legislation will fail on its (de)merits.  I also believe the "all men (mankind) is created equal" and deserve "equal protection under the law."

I see no better way to to secure rights equal with our station than to have an open and honest debate.  Have you written a letter or email, expressing your opinion on the bill, to any Arizona legislator, the Governor, or one of the major publications?  I have.

[Constance]

Yes, I have written to Governor Brewer and Mr. Kavanagh.

Jamie, you have frequently and on various issues indicated that the trampled minorities should just accept the decisions made for us by the majority, except of course when you say the opposite. I have not really seen you take a real stand for the trans* communities, or the queer communities either but that might be beyond the scope of this site.

So long as rights are dependent on geographical location, I don't think this country can truly be called the United States of America. My rights as a queer and trans* person vary wildly depending on local laws, and the anti-federal government proponents seem to want it to be that way. It seems to me that this country will be United only when all persons in the country have the same rights and privileges regardless of which town, city, county or state they're currently in.

[Misato]

Only recently was Don't Ask, Don't Tell undone.  All the ongoing and current kerfuffle over Gay Marriage.

Sanctioned and codified discrimination is alive and, maybe, not-so-well in the United States of America.  But it is still alive.  We need not breathe new life into it by saying, in law, that a transman isn't man enough to use the men's room and a transwoman isn't woman enough to use the women's.

Though there is something absurd about this.  The US once said blacks and whites couldn't share the same water fountain.  Hopefully we really are starting to end the discrimination of letting two people who love each other, but happen to be the same sex, marry.  So now this guy really wants to move on to saying where trans people can and can't pee?  At what point does the goal of the discrimination against a minority become so absurd that most realize it ain't worth it, and instead adopt a stance of "live and let live" because they finally realize none of the aforementioned things should have been put forth as discussion material anyway?

[Jayr]

This bill is gonna bite them all in the butt if it passes.
The only thing this ahole and his buddies think about are trans women.
''Omg, we can't have 'men' going in the womens bathroom..omg''

lol He didn't think about all the bearded trans man that piss standing up.
Now that's gonna be one heck of a scene.

[Constance]

Yes, I have written to Governor Brewer and Mr. Kavanagh.

And for the record, I did indeed out myself as a transwoman in my letters.

[Charley Bea(EmeraldP)]

As I posted in a different thread, it's back.  SB 1045 now, a different bill the Republican Gentleman decided to gut and fill with his hate.  This one basically nullifies city ordinances that provide equal access and give businesses the right to discriminate.  It's up for a hearing tomorrow (Wed) afternoon.

I believe this is what I got an email about from the site that was opposing him called All Out, they said essentially this new proposed law he snuck in(their words) would make it illegal for cities to protect transpeople from discrimination.

[Jamie D]

Yes, I have written to Governor Brewer and Mr. Kavanagh.

Jamie, you have frequently and on various issues indicated that the trampled minorities should just accept the decisions made for us by the majority, except of course when you say the opposite. I have not really seen you take a real stand for the trans* communities, or the queer communities either but that might be beyond the scope of this site.

So long as rights are dependent on geographical location, I don't think this country can truly be called the United States of America. My rights as a queer and trans* person vary wildly depending on local laws, and the anti-federal government proponents seem to want it to be that way. It seems to me that this country will be United only when all persons in the country have the same rights and privileges regardless of which town, city, county or state they're currently in.

I believe that lasting gains are achieved through the building of a consensus.  That often takes time.

[Constance]

I believe that lasting gains are achieved through the building of a consensus.  That often takes time.

Bolded emphasis mine.

The Loyalists probably thought the same thing. The Revolutionaries, the ones who built this country, had adopted a seemingly different mindset.

[suzifrommd]

I believe that lasting gains are achieved through the building of a consensus.  That often takes time.

I'd disagree again (though I really respect your analysis, Jamie. Hearing your viewpoint is always enlightening and interesting.)

I think lasting gains come from LEADERSHIP.

Most people are accustomed to their leaders helping them make up their minds. The tide really turned on gay marriage, for example, when Obama came out in favor. Societal opinions on civil rights did most of its changing after 1964, when the government took its most significant action.

I have a lot of Catholic friends who excuse their opposition to same-sex marriage by deferring to their religion. When a pope finally decides that children raised by same-sex couples also deserve to have married parents, it will have another tidal wave of support.

Leadership need not take time. Leaders can change their minds very quickly.

[NJade]

I believe this is what I got an email about from the site that was opposing him called All Out, they said essentially this new proposed law he snuck in(their words) would make it illegal for cities to protect transpeople from discrimination.

This is exactly the issue now. We would not be punished for peeing in the right place here in the desert (where I have been banished), however, any establishment would be within their rights to deny us access to ANY bathroom...heck, they could deny anyone access to their restrooms based on nothing more than a personal bias against some element of their presentation, such as long hair on a man or a butch lesbian, that displeases them.

Yes, living here in AZ requires constant vigilance against our homegrown fascism.

N.J.

[NJade]

On a party line vote, the Arizona Committee of Appropriations voted to allow trans and intersex individuals to be discriminated against. Per Zoe Brain (on FB):

It was obvious those who testified were wasting their time. Nothing they could have done or said would have made the slightest difference to the party-line vote.

All those who voted against spoke at length, with reason. All those who voted for just said "Yes" like good little robots, with no attempt at justification, because the bill was unjustifiable.

Oh yes, it's also explicitly against Federal Law, the Price-Waterhouse decision regarding the Civil Rights Act 1964. So all it will do is cost the Arizona taxpayers, including those discriminated against, more millions in legal costs to defend the indefencible.

So it goes...

N.J.