neither fish nor fowl

[dean1229]

To: AlexanderC


Alex, i hope you do understand that i wasn't speaking for every single trans man out there! As i said before i was talking about my own experiences and this doesn't apply to anyone else except me. And like it or not, it IS so much harder to find someone when you are FTM and GAY. Trust me, i am 29 and i have seen a lot of things. And everything is so messed up just because i am gay, not because i am FTM. If i was a FTM and straight - everything would have been waaaaaay easier. But i am gay. And this is a total shock for everyone. People just don't know what to think about me.

I don't know where you live but i think that must be a pretty tolerant place. It's not like that here. People are too stupid to even understand a concept of being a FTM or MTF. That's too much for them. But i am happy there are more tolerant places out there.

[AdamMLP]

To: AlexanderC


Alex, i hope you do understand that i wasn't speaking for every single trans man out there! As i said before i was talking about my own experiences and this doesn't apply to anyone else except me. And like it or not, it IS so much harder to find someone when you are FTM and GAY. Trust me, i am 29 and i have seen a lot of things. And everything is so messed up just because i am gay, not because i am FTM. If i was a FTM and straight - everything would have been waaaaaay easier. But i am gay. And this is a total shock for everyone. People just don't know what to think about me.

I don't know where you live but i think that must be a pretty tolerant place. It's not like that here. People are too stupid to even understand a concept of being a FTM or MTF. That's too much for them. But i am happy there are more tolerant places out there.

I know that you're only talking for yourself, but what concerns me is that other people who look on these boards won't realise that, particularly people who are just beginning to question their gender, or family members of trans people who are looking for ammunition to try and stop their son from transitioning.  I don't know if it happens, maybe I'm being a bit too cynical, but I could imagine some crazy people doing that.  I'm not too keen on the blanket statement on gay people either, but I've already said my piece on that.

I don't know what things are like for you where you live, and I don't know what things are like for trans people where I live.  I don't know what it's like to be a gay man or to be interested in gay men.  What people might see from what you were saying didn't portray us or gay men in a brilliant light that's all.

I've said what I'm going to say on here, I'm not attacking you, I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea from what you were writing.

[Arch]

I do have a question though, Have you ever consider dating bi-men?

I know that this question isn't aimed at me, but I'm going to answer it from my perspective. After my relationship broke up, I didn't know whether I would ever be able to afford bottom surgery, and I hadn't even decided WHETHER to have it. I told myself that all was not lost, that maybe I could find a nice bi guy.

I don't tell myself that anymore.

I want a guy who is attracted only to men. I want a guy who wants a guy with a penis. I want to have a penis.

I know that if I do fall in love again, I won't have control over the other guy's attractions. He might well be bi. But when I think about that possibility, it bothers me so much. Too much. I suspect that I've quietly come to the conclusion that if I'm with a bi guy, he might privately think of me as a girl or a former girl or a hybrid or not a real guy. But another thing is that I can't offer the best of what men have, nor can I be a girl, despite my lower equipment. Seems to me that if a bi guy is with a man, he will expect typical male equipment, and if he's with a woman, he will want all of the girl stuff. I don't offer either one of these extremes.

Also, I've spent so many years inside my head, crafting my own gay identity, that I want any new relationships to be unabashedly and completely gay. On both sides.

[Bastian]

I know that this question isn't aimed at me, but I'm going to answer it from my perspective. After my relationship broke up, I didn't know whether I would ever be able to afford bottom surgery, and I hadn't even decided WHETHER to have it. I told myself that all was not lost, that maybe I could find a nice bi guy.

I don't tell myself that anymore.

I want a guy who is attracted only to men. I want a guy who wants a guy with a penis. I want to have a penis.

I know that if I do fall in love again, I won't have control over the other guy's attractions. He might well be bi. But when I think about that possibility, it bothers me so much. Too much. I suspect that I've quietly come to the conclusion that if I'm with a bi guy, he might privately think of me as a girl or a former girl or a hybrid or not a real guy. But another thing is that I can't offer the best of what men have, nor can I be a girl, despite my lower equipment. Seems to me that if a bi guy is with a man, he will expect typical male equipment, and if he's with a woman, he will want all of the girl stuff. I don't offer either one of these extremes.

Also, I've spent so many years inside my head, crafting my own gay identity, that I want any new relationships to be unabashedly and completely gay. On both sides.

I second this opinion.

[Mr.X]

Also, I've spent so many years inside my head, crafting my own gay identity, that I want any new relationships to be unabashedly and completely gay. On both sides.

I second this too. When you identify yourself as gay for a long time, its hard to let go. It becomes a part of who you are.

[GentlemanRDP]

While I respect your feelings and opinion on this Arch, And even sympathize with you in the sense that I too would prefer having a penis, and a guy who is gay as well. The fact is that most men who identify as being completely gay are going to want a guy with a fully functioning penis. A lot of gay cis-guys are going to be turned off by the idea that a guy they like used to have a female body. Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible. I have heard of gay cismen having very successful relationships with transmen. It's just not very common, and it's a little more on the unrealistic side of things. Finding a gay cisguy who considers himself completely and unabashedly gay who is okay dating and engaging with a transguy, even one with a penis is going to be very difficult. It certainly doesn't happen every day.

I second this too. When you identify yourself as gay for a long time, its hard to let go. It becomes a part of who you are.

Also...Trying to be as level-headed as possible here...but I'm gay too, and have considered myself this way for a while. Being gay doesn't necessarily mean that you're only attracted to gay men. I have plenty of gay friends who happen to be dating someone bi. Whether or not you meant this in an offensive way, I can't help but be just a little peeved by your comment.

[Arch]

The fact is that most men who identify as being completely gay are going to want a guy with a fully functioning penis. A lot of gay cis-guys are going to be turned off by the idea that a guy they like used to have a female body. Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible. I have heard of gay cismen having very successful relationships with transmen. It's just not very common, and it's a little more on the unrealistic side of things. Finding a gay cisguy who considers himself completely and unabashedly gay who is okay dating and engaging with a transguy, even one with a penis is going to be very difficult. It certainly doesn't happen every day.

Why do you think I've resigned myself to being single until I die? Even with a successful bottom surgery, my chances of being in a relationship again are very poor. I have no illusions. And as I said, if I actually do fall for a bi guy (and he falls for me, which seems unlikely), then I'll figure it out as I go along.

Also...Trying to be as level-headed as possible here...but I'm gay too, and have considered myself this way for a while. Being gay doesn't necessarily mean that you're only attracted to gay men. I have plenty of gay friends who happen to be dating someone bi. Whether or not you meant this in an offensive way, I can't help but be just a little peeved by your comment.

It looks to me as if he is simply agreeing with me that he wants his partner to be gay as well. I know plenty of gay men (and have known a few straight ones) who are not interested in getting involved with a bisexual. It's simply a personal preference. I spent so many years being gay inside my head, having sex and relationships with gay men who would never even LOOK at a woman, that I'm not willing to give that up. That's the way I'm thinking at present.

[Bastian]

I would also argue that finding an open minded gay man is actually relatively easy, when you know where to look.  The thing is, despite what past generations tried to drill into the minds of their generation, humans are not black and white when is comes to sexual preference. I've identified as straight, lesbian, straight, gay, then straight there for a little while, asexual for just a couple months, back to gay, then bi and now recently have move back to 70% gay, 30% straight or as I call it predominantly gay.

The thing is people change all the time, ALL the time. Every second of every minute our brains are ticking away and problem solving and thinking. As the superior species we have the ability to be constantly adapting. That's how we took over the earth. We are a top predator and that makes us smart and adaptable. For fifteen years I refused to eat meat, over the last year i've changed from this 'elitist' way of thinking about food and switched to 'survivalist' mode. I'll try anything once (except for bugs, not quite there yet). In the last year i've eaten cow, chicken, pork, alligator and frog. I want to eat snake, rabbit and deer still. The point? A year ago I would never have dreamed of trying these things, then one day (and I can tell you the exact day and the exact thought that went through my mind when) I changed my thought process.

To say that it's harder to find a suitable gay man who accepts you as a FTM than a straight guys is bogus I think. Think of all the things that have to align in order for your chemistry to work on the exact same level as someone else (and i'm not talking about one nighters, I'm talking about falling in love, finding that someone). Physical attraction, chemical attraction, personality attraction, same city or same website (for dating website relationships) complementary likes, dislikes, ways of thinking, courage on both ends, there are so many things chugging away. I've got straight friends who can't find girls and gay guys who can't find men. I've met trans guys who've found a partner and asexuals who want to be left the hell alone .

The Top 3 Rules of Finding a Partner:

1. Look in the right places. You won't find a cow in the antarctic no matter how much you look.

2. Be positive. Doesn't matter how hot you are or how awesome your personality is, no one wants to date someone who has a thunder cloud with their name on it.

3. Decide who your going to be: The Early Bird who tells potential mates right off the bat you are trans or the Patient Tortoise who tells a potential mate after the they've gotten a chance to know the tortoise but BEFORE any sexual interaction occurs. DON'T BE an Angry Beaver and 'cut your nuts off in the heat of the moment' so to speak. Have respect for the other person.

The way I see it, if you are a stable individual and have self confidence and follow the three rules you'll eventually find a mate, your chances are no greater or worse than your neighbors.

Oh and if people are wondering if it works *shrug* i've been in a relationship for a year and a half with a male, following my advice.

[dean1229]

I want a guy who is attracted only to men. I want a guy who wants a guy with a penis. I want to have a penis.

I suspect that I've quietly come to the conclusion that if I'm with a bi guy, he might privately think of me as a girl or a former girl or a hybrid or not a real guy. But another thing is that I can't offer the best of what men have, nor can I be a girl, despite my lower equipment. Seems to me that if a bi guy is with a man, he will expect typical male equipment, and if he's with a woman, he will want all of the girl stuff. I don't offer either one of these extremes.

Arch, this is EXACTLY how i feel. I want a gay man and i want him to see me as a guy and not a girl! Unfortunately, i know that i will always be seen as a girl as long as i have female genitals. I HATE being seen as a girl and having sex as a girl is the most disgusting thing in the world. That's why it's better to stay alone and away from all this stuff because it just makes me feel even more depressed.

Btw, girls tend to be waaaaay more tolerant than guys. A lot of straight FTM guys have straight girlfriends. Those girls fall in love with the person that's inside and not with the body. However, guys tend to be less tolerant. A gay guy usually wants typical male equipment and a straight guy won't even go close to you if you look and act like a guy. The same goes for a bi guy as well - usually they want a man or a woman but not something in between.

So i can agree with you - i don't offer either of these too. I want to feel comfortable with my boyfriend and i want him to be comfortable with me AND to see me as a guy. And this is very very hard to achieve.