Yeson voice feminization surgery

[samantha.mich]

Hi, I'm considering getting VFS and was wondering if you still have to do a lot of speech therapy after your surgery to get a voice that passes well? I have been working on my voice for awhile now and it still just doesn't sound right. Kinda bad actually. It's really frustrating! And I can't even do it for any length of time without feeling like I'm getting a sore throat. Did you your surgery help this? Thank you.

[Expressgirl]

Anjaq,

Did you get the video and voice pitch recording done with your ENT? I really want to send Dr. Kim something before I go, just so I don't feel like I am going on blind luck. I had FFS here in the US 8 months ago and before I even booked the surgery I had like a half dozen discussions with my chosen surgeon. So going out of country without even speaking with the surgeon feels very odd.

[anjaq]

Expressgirl - yes I did get an examination locally and collected all the data and sent them in. It is not as thorough as the examination Dr Kim does and he can only do a partial diagnosis on that, I am not sure how much time he wants to spend on it unless you are booked and if you are booked he will say just wait until he does the examination. He also suggested to me to have the examination with him because he could not judge really well only from the video. I think what helps in the initial assessment though is to somehow communicate if your local ENT has discovered any voice anomalies (so Dr Kim can say if they can be fixed or if they are hinderances) and to communicate your pitch level and range to allow Dr Kim to estimate a target pitch.

samantha - I think you definitely should do voice training before and after - pitch is like 20-50% of the feminization of the voice from what I have heard - it is something that causes a lot of sore throat if it is forced though. Focus in your voice training on intonation, resonance and all the other little things and not much on pitch as pitch will come with the VFS. Those other parameters will not change with VFS too much though I guess some changes are possible there too...

[Saskia]

Saskia - if your voice is in a female range and you cannot leave that range or your present voice and it worked for 20 years, why are you considering going to Dr Kim then? Is it straining the voice to use it as you do?

Good question Anja. I really hate my voice especially when I hear it myself. I cringe with embarrassment. The only time I have a problem with my voice for eample on the phone is if I have a cold and then it goes like horribly deep. I asked my niece to give me honest feedback on my voice and this is exactly what she told me (below). I guess it's down to my own personal perception. The voices I've heard after VFS sound so very natural, whereas I don't think mine does.

Quote from my Nieces' email
"Regarding the operation. How do you feel about it and what has made you decide that now is the time? I will be honest and say perhaps your voice is ever so slightly deeper than some womens voices but you definitely don't sound male and there are a couple of women in my office, one in particular especially, who get mistaken for men all the time as their voices are so deep. I don't think that would ever happen to you. But if it will make you feel more confident and if you are sure it is safe and you can afford it then go for it"

[samantha.mich]

Anjaq thanks for answering my question. So dose this surgery truly make your range higher or dose it just help remove the lower range? I don't mean to sound stupid but dose everything move up? And you get a little bit higher range? Because if I try and go to high up my voice kind of breaks when I go to high up. So I'm hoping that this surgery would help me with that. I'm getting voice therapy this spring right now I'm using online videos to help me. I just don't think I can get the proper range without surgery too.

Expressgirl - yes I did get an examination locally and collected all the data and sent them in. It is not as thorough as the examination Dr Kim does and he can only do a partial diagnosis on that, I am not sure how much time he wants to spend on it unless you are booked and if you are booked he will say just wait until he does the examination. He also suggested to me to have the examination with him because he could not judge really well only from the video. I think what helps in the initial assessment though is to somehow communicate if your local ENT has discovered any voice anomalies (so Dr Kim can say if they can be fixed or if they are hinderances) and to communicate your pitch level and range to allow Dr Kim to estimate a target pitch.

samantha - I think you definitely should do voice training before and after - pitch is like 20-50% of the feminization of the voice from what I have heard - it is something that causes a lot of sore throat if it is forced though. Focus in your voice training on intonation, resonance and all the other little things and not much on pitch as pitch will come with the VFS. Those other parameters will not change with VFS too much though I guess some changes are possible there too...

[anjaq]

Saskia, I guess I can only agree to your niece there - if it makes you feel better and more confident and you trust the procedure well enough - thats cool. And if the pitch really is lower than most of the other womens voices then surgery will have some effect for sure.

Samantha - Jenny can tell more on this as she experienced also an upward shift. However "officially" the main effect is the removal of the lower range as the upper range is more limited by your muscle control and not the vocal chords. It seems to be easier to get that control though if the surgery is done. Your main concern is the break and that was also a biggie for me when I started to look into voice issues. I was concerned that I would hit that break all the time when speaking in a higher pitch- howver I must say I hardly ever hit it up to now when speaking at a higher pitch without surgery except when I am doing a lot of pitch changes. I think that break point probably does not change, or maybe someone post op can tell you more on the pitch at which that break happens. However some have said that the break is less noticeable and let me tell you, I did start voice rehab 3 months ago and I was having a severe break there. We did a few trainigns and easy lip flutter exercises and "siren sounds" and that break now is really manageable. I can make a tone that goes from low to high without breaking but it looses a bit of volume in that break range. So this break is something you can manage with voice training for sure and then you are free to use the pitches in the upper range and mix them with the rest

[Jennygirl]

My break has gone up almost 2 wholetones, but I think it is more due to adapting to having proper resonance at all times- because my voice sounds weird otherwise... It sounds like I am a girl trying to imitate a guy voice so I don't ever drop my larynx. This is purely due to habit, and it is probably correspondingly strengthening the muscles associated with using a feminized larynx position further cementing it.

Someone who has successfully feminized their voice without surgery would likely find the same exact thing about getting used to a new larynx position and how that changes the break of your voice. The only exception being that it is possible to retrain a non-VFS'd voice to use the lower range again. After VFS, that possibility is permanently eliminated.

And yes the lip flutter exercises and sirens have definitely helped I think. Yeson has you do voice strengthening exercises and those are the main component.

This is what I do twice a day (as directed by Yeson, until I am 12 months post op), but anyone could do this to develop their voice regardless if they've had the surgery:

warm up
• soft lip trill on F3 (this is towards the bottom of my range and feels like somewhat of a low note)
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3
• soft lip trill on F3
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3

stretching & contracting (stay quiet, careful not to strain)
• soft lip trill siren from lowest to highest x 4
• soft "noooh" sound from lowest to highest x 4 (using air like blowing a candle)
(current range D3 147hz to Ab5 831hz)

power
• hold lip trill on C4 as long as possible (relax and breathe from diaphragm)
• hold "noooh" on C4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on D4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on D4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on E4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on E4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on F4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on F4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on G4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on G4 as long as possible

warm down (quietly)
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg" sound, like in the word "sing"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"

It's a really great exercise while driving alone

[samantha.mich]

Anjaq and Jenny, thanks so much for this information! This is so awesome to know. I have been so sad and just frustrated about not being able to change my voice in any clear manor that I was figuring what's the point? My voice will be to low or break just almost as soon as I raise it and go falsetto. And it's not from not trying and being diligent. It's kind of heart breaking to me to keep my practicing up and always sounding so bad. I got called miss at the store the other day and it just killed me to answer her and see that look on her face.... I will start practicing this right away! Thank you both!

[anjaq]

Samantha - there are some youtube videos explaining the lip trill/lip flutter exercises - they are what helped me most. Also that "ffffeeee" and "ffffooooo" sound - using a lot of air to make the sounds - those are great to train the voice to not have a break and to no thave tension too much. I do them a lot. I recognize some of the trainings in the list from Jenny there. not all of them though. But the siren lip trill - going from lowest to highest and try not to break - those are the best. use a lot of air. Rather do it in 2 or 3 steps if you cannot go from lowest to highest possible in one run but use a lot of air it makes the break go away easier.Good luck - this is what can be done with voice training and without surgery.

[samantha.mich]

Anjaq, Awesome! I will look for those you tube videos. Thank you again for all your tips and help!
Samantha

[alexiakk]

I hope someone can answer these questions for me:

1. Does genetic females tend to pull their larynx up when speaking also , or it's just a way that genetic males need to do in order to produce similar sound? I tried to observe gen-females around me these 2 days, and their larynx kinda being pulled up a bit when speaking.

2. Can you produce large volume female voice with the method taught in voice therapy? Most of the trans-girls I saw on youtube speak very softly... but I want to sound energetic.

3. This one I hope Amy can answer me: why do females have such a wide range of "middle register"? Is this trainable? I don't think this one has too much to deal with the vocal cords size... as females even alto have almost an octave of middle register. Leggerio tenors or tenorino might have similar size of cords, but still the range of zona di passaggio is only about a 4th. Is this somehow related to speech habits (ok I saw that middle register is what US vocal coaches called "call voice", so that's what I think)?

[alexiakk]

My break has gone up almost 2 wholetones, but I think it is more due to adapting to having proper resonance at all times- because my voice sounds weird otherwise... It sounds like I am a girl trying to imitate a guy voice so I don't ever drop my larynx. This is purely due to habit, and it is probably correspondingly strengthening the muscles associated with using a feminized larynx position further cementing it.

Someone who has successfully feminized their voice without surgery would likely find the same exact thing about getting used to a new larynx position and how that changes the break of your voice. The only exception being that it is possible to retrain a non-VFS'd voice to use the lower range again. After VFS, that possibility is permanently eliminated.

And yes the lip flutter exercises and sirens have definitely helped I think. Yeson has you do voice strengthening exercises and those are the main component.

This is what I do twice a day (as directed by Yeson, until I am 12 months post op), but anyone could do this to develop their voice regardless if they've had the surgery:

warm up
• soft lip trill on F3 (this is towards the bottom of my range and feels like somewhat of a low note)
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3
• soft lip trill on F3
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3

stretching & contracting (stay quiet, careful not to strain)
• soft lip trill siren from lowest to highest x 4
• soft "noooh" sound from lowest to highest x 4 (using air like blowing a candle)
(current range D3 147hz to Ab5 831hz)

power
• hold lip trill on C4 as long as possible (relax and breathe from diaphragm)
• hold "noooh" on C4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on D4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on D4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on E4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on E4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on F4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on F4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on G4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on G4 as long as possible

warm down (quietly)
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg" sound, like in the word "sing"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"

It's a really great exercise while driving alone

So Jenny, do you still have to do some kind of resonance modification after the Yeson VFS?

Thanks!!

[samantha.mich]

Ok I've been practicing Jenny's warm up exercises and my range is a lot lower then I thought. No where near Jenny's high of Ab5. She's had surgery I know and I haven't... The highest note I can reach with these warm ups is F4 maybe if I really push a G4 buts it's super hard to get there and it's really thin sounding. Should I just not try to get that high up? And practice a lot lower? Is practicing lower even going to help me in the long run? Thanks.

My break has gone up almost 2 wholetones, but I think it is more due to adapting to having proper resonance at all times- because my voice sounds weird otherwise... It sounds like I am a girl trying to imitate a guy voice so I don't ever drop my larynx. This is purely due to habit, and it is probably correspondingly strengthening the muscles associated with using a feminized larynx position further cementing it.

Someone who has successfully feminized their voice without surgery would likely find the same exact thing about getting used to a new larynx position and how that changes the break of your voice. The only exception being that it is possible to retrain a non-VFS'd voice to use the lower range again. After VFS, that possibility is permanently eliminated.

And yes the lip flutter exercises and sirens have definitely helped I think. Yeson has you do voice strengthening exercises and those are the main component.

This is what I do twice a day (as directed by Yeson, until I am 12 months post op), but anyone could do this to develop their voice regardless if they've had the surgery:

warm up
• soft lip trill on F3 (this is towards the bottom of my range and feels like somewhat of a low note)
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3
• soft lip trill on F3
• soft "neeeeee" sound on F3

stretching & contracting (stay quiet, careful not to strain)
• soft lip trill siren from lowest to highest x 4
• soft "noooh" sound from lowest to highest x 4 (using air like blowing a candle)
(current range D3 147hz to Ab5 831hz)

power
• hold lip trill on C4 as long as possible (relax and breathe from diaphragm)
• hold "noooh" on C4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on D4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on D4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on E4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on E4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on F4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on F4 as long as possible
• hold lip trill on G4 as long as possible
• hold "noooh" on G4 as long as possible

warm down (quietly)
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg" sound, like in the word "sing"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"
• G4 down to G3 siren using "nnngg"

It's a really great exercise while driving alone

[Jennygirl]

Ok I've been practicing Jenny's warm up exercises and my range is a lot lower then I thought. No where near Jenny's high of Ab5. She's had surgery I know and I haven't... The highest note I can reach with these warm ups is F4 maybe if I really push a G4 buts it's super hard to get there and it's really thin sounding. Should I just not try to get that high up? And practice a lot lower? Is practicing lower even going to help me in the long run? Thanks.

Sounds like you're probably a great candidate for Yeson VFS! But I would keep going with the exercises. After a couple of months I'm sure your upper range will improve

So Jenny, do you still have to do some kind of resonance modification after the Yeson VFS?

Thanks!!

Yes, definitely. But at some point it just becomes second nature. With your already supa-high voice I'm sure a little will go a long way. You could try the kermit the frog exercise I mentioned earlier, and in the meantime I will look for the practice sheet that voice therapist gave to me. It had all sorts of exercises to work out your larynx!

[Jennygirl]

Found it!

[anjaq]

Ok I've been practicing Jenny's warm up exercises and my range is a lot lower then I thought. No where near Jenny's high of Ab5. She's had surgery I know and I haven't... The highest note I can reach with these warm ups is F4 maybe if I really push a G4 buts it's super hard to get there and it's really thin sounding. Should I just not try to get that high up? And practice a lot lower? Is practicing lower even going to help me in the long run? Thanks.

Wow I mean Ab5 is really high - I can reach a G5 but not much more. A F4 should be manageable though especially with vocal chords that are already female in size. It is only training I would guess - the whole upper range is mostly training. And in some people VFS doe snot really increase upper range that much anyways - some claim it cannot do it but Jenny has shown that it can - if you also do the voice training at the same time.
If you want to practice higher notes what my voice therapist did was to let me sing two-tones. Like a tone where I fo the ffffooooooo sound - use  alot of air and make an o vowel. And then go up thre semitones from that without stopping the sound (glide up) and change the vowel to an U. And then without breaking again down to the original tone. Then go up a semitone and do the same thing again and again until you reach your upper limits and then go down with it. Do lip flutter exercises before that. When we did that she claimed I reached the "high c" - but I think she just wanted me to feel good

[samantha.mich]

Wow I mean Ab5 is really high - I can reach a G5 but not much more. A F4 should be manageable though especially with vocal chords that are already female in size. It is only training I would guess - the whole upper range is mostly training. And in some people VFS doe snot really increase upper range that much anyways - some claim it cannot do it but Jenny has shown that it can - if you also do the voice training at the same time.
If you want to practice higher notes what my voice therapist did was to let me sing two-tones. Like a tone where I fo the ffffooooooo sound - use  alot of air and make an o vowel. And then go up thre semitones from that without stopping the sound (glide up) and change the vowel to an U. And then without breaking again down to the original tone. Then go up a semitone and do the same thing again and again until you reach your upper limits and then go down with it. Do lip flutter exercises before that. When we did that she claimed I reached the "high c" - but I think she just wanted me to feel good

Sounds like your therapist is a sweetie! I will try this as well. So what then is an expectable range note wise to practice speaking in my female range? I can hit and speak at A3 to C4 (to me this sounds weird). but my male voice is more like A2 to C3.... I just want to make some progress while I'm saving for surgery. Thanks!

[alexiakk]

Found it!

Thanks Jenny!

I think I should start practicing now 

[Buterfly99]

I got my tickets last night! I am 100% ready now I fly out on the 12th and I'm back in the states on the 23rd. The 12th can't seem to come soon enough- but I know the next two weeks are going to fly by at lightning speed as I mentally ramp up and prepare for this whole thing.

I'll keep you updated! Thank you again for the support

Dear Jennygirl,
I sent an email to Jessie today to schedule my VFS at Yeson Center. I saw your videos on YouTube and I'm so impressed with the quality of your voice that i contacted Dr Kim hoping to have a decent result.  I'm waiting for the confirmation email.. Id like to ask you if I could contact you for some questions.. Thank you so much..

[Expressgirl]

I am booked!! March 14th. I'm so excited for the surgery, and I am really looking forward to Korea too. I have never left North America so I don't really know what to expect. I am going with my partner, so at least she will be able to speak for me. I must admit that the thought of not speaking for a month scares me more than the surgery.

I was also wondering, for those of you that have done the surgery, how did you tell your job? Were you able to qualify for FMLA? How long until you were able to return to work. I was able to get FFS covered under FMLA so I am hoping that this will also, but my company recently changed their policy and now everything has to be approved through CIGNA. Obviously they don't consider this a "medically necessary" procedure or they would cover it on the insurance plan, but hopefully they understand this is treatment for GID.