Neutral pronouns

[Lo]

Does anyone here go by them in real life? If so, how's it working out for you?

[wanderingamoeba]

I do, to some extent, anyway. My partner and friends use (or, in the case of friends, do their best to use) singular they/them/theirs or ze/hir/hirs (I'm not terribly picky as long as they're gender neutral) in reference to me. I'm not out at my current job (though I'm about to switch jobs, and then this may change), so it's pretty much just a social thing for me right now. I can say I'm much more comfortable hearing myself referred to by gender neutral pronouns. It's how I refer to myself in third person, too, so it actually throws me a little at work when I get feminine pronouns thrown at me.

[Jamie D]

Yes, we have several members who prefer the use of gender neutral terminology.  They often put a reminder in their "personal text" of their profile.

Note the discussion in the stickied post be Sevan, above ^

[Lo]

@Jamie: Yes, I flipped through that, though it seemed more theoretical than about lived, meatspace experience. I can't say that I've heard of anyone who goes by neutral pronouns in their day-to-day lives rather than just the internet, is what I meant.

@wanderingamoeba: Interesting, thanks! I think what's messing me up is the reality of having to go by different pronouns in different aspects of my life. It may be one of the things keeping me in the "no preference" zone rather than wanting to go by singular they. Getting "she"'d at work and around fam, and then "they"'d by friends and spouse sounds like something I wouldn't be able to do. I'm easily tripped up. :\

[ativan]

It will take time for the rest of the world to catch up. They will decide which pronouns they are comfortable with.
Just like they are with the binary ones they use now.
To expect society to learn all the pronouns is like asking them to know and understand all the 'terms' and labels people like to use.
There are choices that they will eventually make, and trying to make anyone use certain ones that work for you, yet not others, won't fly.
All non-binaries can do is be gentle on the unsuspecting people that know nothing beyond binary thinking.
The singular 'they' is the easiest for them to use, as it is a word they already know and by simply adding to the definition is far easier than trying to remember each individuals personal preferences. Over time, they ended up with the pronouns they now use in the English language.
Some languages make no distinction. It's how it evolved. English is complicated and it will take time to evolve.
I have patience and laugh inside at the stumbling around that some people use to define pronouns at this time.
It's not your problem, it is theirs and you can't fix it. Trying to only confuses them even more.
They will work it out or maybe not. Life in the English language.
Why is phonetics spelled with a ph? Our language has built in barriers to common sense.
Ativan

[wanderingamoeba]

@wanderingamoeba: Interesting, thanks! I think what's messing me up is the reality of having to go by different pronouns in different aspects of my life. It may be one of the things keeping me in the "no preference" zone rather than wanting to go by singular they. Getting "she"'d at work and around fam, and then "they"'d by friends and spouse sounds like something I wouldn't be able to do. I'm easily tripped up. :\

It's uncomfortable, I'll admit that. Thankfully, I at least go by my taken name at work rather than my given name, so unless I'm with my biological fam or old family friends, I at least have that consistent. I am seriously considering coming out at my new job, at least to the extent of asking my supervisors to use singular they. If I do, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

Also, for the record, I've had the privilege of meeting several people who go by gender neutral pronouns. Whether everyone respects that, I can't say, but at least within the circles I've been in lately, it's a real life thing rather than just an internet deal.

[Lo]

Dang, good luck! :0

[Natkat]

Not in everyday life so much
but I have been in a newspaper where I been adressed with gender neutral pronoucing.
I didn't ask for it but I never mentioned my gender and I told the person that I was found of the gender neutral words they had in there country. a rather funny experience even when it was abit odd for me.

I try to use genderneutral word for others once in a while, but it difficult to get used to.

[wanderingamoeba]

Not in everyday life so much
but I have been in a newspaper where I been adressed with gender neutral pronoucing.
I didn't ask for it but I never mentioned my gender and I told the person that I was found of the gender neutral words they had in there country. a rather funny experience even when it was abit odd for me.

I try to use genderneutral word for others once in a while, but it difficult to get used to.

It can feel a little uncomfortable at first, breaking out of gendered language. But it does get easier with practice. Admittedly, it got a lot easier for me with exposure, too...the more people I met who identified as non-binary, the easier it got for me to use gender neutral language for them and for myself.

[ativan]

I try to use gender neutral pronouns with everyone. It doesn't offend people as far as I can tell.
But I stick with the 'they as a singular' type of pronouns.
I don't ever ask people to use certain pronouns for me.
I correct them on occasions when they think I'm a 'she' from behind, only to find out I am a 'he' from the front.
When they stumble around for a bit, I tell them that they is just fine, if it helps them.
The more uncommon ones are just too damn confusing for people to get. I've tried them with a 'what?' reaction.
It does become easier and more natural sounding the more you do it.
I've caught some close friends occasionally doing the same.
Gender neutral pronouns, they're not just for non-binaries anymore...
Ativan

[wanderingamoeba]

I try to use gender neutral pronouns with everyone. It doesn't offend people as far as I can tell.
But I stick with the 'they as a singular' type of pronouns.
I don't ever ask people to use certain pronouns for me.
I correct them on occasions when they think I'm a 'she' from behind, only to find out I am a 'he' from the front.
When they stumble around for a bit, I tell them that they is just fine, if it helps them.
The more uncommon ones are just too damn confusing for people to get. I've tried them with a 'what?' reaction.
It does become easier and more natural sounding the more you do it.
I've caught some close friends occasionally doing the same.
Gender neutral pronouns, they're not just for non-binaries anymore...
Ativan

That's why I ended up settling with singular they for myself. I'm charmed by ze/hir/hirs, but ultimately, I am a practical human. Although I did have the interesting experience after coming out as genderqueer of one friend asking if I was okay with ze/hir/hirs instead of they/them/theirs, because that was what she was used to using. It seems to vary by community.

[ativan]

That's why I ended up settling with singular they for myself. I'm charmed by ze/hir/hirs, but ultimately, I am a practical human. Although I did have the interesting experience after coming out as genderqueer of one friend asking if I was okay with ze/hir/hirs instead of they/them/theirs, because that was what she was used to using. It seems to vary by community.

Hey, if it works for them, so much the better. It's actually nice to hear that it is the prefered in places.
Really, anything is better than the stumbling embarrassing moments people go through just to please other people.
It should be just as easy as possible for people to refer to one another without having to question what they are saying.
We all go through embarrasing moments in conversations enough as it is, without having to make others feel uncomfortable.
I much prefer a meaningful conversation without the worries of having possibly offended someone.
So long as they are not used in a sarcastic or negative way, call me whatever. I'm still me regardless of who you think I may be.
Ativan

[vegie271]

@Jamie: Yes, I flipped through that, though it seemed more theoretical than about lived, meatspace experience. I can't say that I've heard of anyone who goes by neutral pronouns in their day-to-day lives rather than just the internet, is what I meant.

@wanderingamoeba: Interesting, thanks! I think what's messing me up is the reality of having to go by different pronouns in different aspects of my life. It may be one of the things keeping me in the "no preference" zone rather than wanting to go by singular they. Getting "she"'d at work and around fam, and then "they"'d by friends and spouse sounds like something I wouldn't be able to do. I'm easily tripped up. :\

I personally know several people face to face who use Zie and others, not just they

[Lo]

It can feel a little uncomfortable at first, breaking out of gendered language. But it does get easier with practice. Admittedly, it got a lot easier for me with exposure, too...the more people I met who identified as non-binary, the easier it got for me to use gender neutral language for them and for myself.

Same. I realized that I needed to break the habit of using gendered language myself before I could even think to ask it of others. I slip up quite a bit still, but I'm way ahead of where I was just 6 months ago!

[Natkat]

It can feel a little uncomfortable at first, breaking out of gendered language. But it does get easier with practice. Admittedly, it got a lot easier for me with exposure, too...the more people I met who identified as non-binary, the easier it got for me to use gender neutral language for them and for myself.

I also think its has alot to do with culture.
I'm from Scandinavia and in Sweden they got this genderneutral pronouce "hen" which they can use. Some pre-schools been using it as "gender-neutral pre-schools" which cause alot of debatations. theres debatation how normalized it is or not, it still not the most common word, But Even when they also got Hen in Denmark it seams very diffrent from when I hanged out with swedish friends or danish.
Amount the friends I had in Sweden they seamed more accepted in a way, Like I heard about people using it also someone I belive to be cisgender "like you can call me he or hen" sentence.

In Denmark its there but it kinda like it (unmentioned) decribed someone to be gender-queer-bigender, or something in the middle,ONLY which kinda why I for exemple dont really feel like using "hen" cause I do feel fuid but Not That fluid, im still FTM.. and it almost like Hen in Denmark is never used for FTM or MTF or cisgenders for that matter, because people most people seam to state out clearly that there a "HE" or "SHE"
So it like its more or a taboo to get used of the word. at least how I feel.
-
In Norway they got a simular word "Hin" but Hin are also debatating as it also can means "hell, or devil.
"hin-mannen" (the hin-man (the devil)"
--
But I still try using it when I know someone want to be adressed with gender-neutral pronoucing, like one of my friends been talking about someone transgender who wanted to be adress as "hin" So I wrotte "hin" while writting about the person.
Somethimes I wonder what would happent if I said Hen to a cisgender how they would react? most cisgenders dont know the word, probably like most english people dont use ze??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

[Natkat]

of they/them/theirs,

I wonder if they/them/theirs, also is an polite old-fashion pronouce in English?

In Danish using They about someone, is like either talking to an old lady, or talking with the queen. its very polite.
and in German it either female, or unisex polite in abit more common way.

[vegie271]

I wonder if they/them/theirs, also is an polite old-fashion pronouce in English?

In Danish using They about someone, is like either talking to an old lady, or talking with the queen. its very polite.
and in German it either female, or unisex polite in abit more common way.

In English there are several different versions and it started as early st the 1500's


http://citizendia.org/Gender-neutral_pronoun



"In 1789, William H. Marshall records the existence of a dialectal English epicene pronoun, singular "ou": "'Ou will' expresses either he will, she will, or it will. " Marshall traces "ou" to Middle English epicene "a", used by the 14th century English writer John of Trevisa, and both the OED and Wright's English Dialect Dictionary confirm the use of "a" for he, she, it, they, and even I. This "a" is a reduced form of the Anglo-Saxon he = "he" and heo = "she". By the 12th and 13th centuries, these had often weakened to a point where, according to the OED, they were "almost or wholly indistinguishable in pronunciation. " The modern feminine pronoun she, which first appears in the mid twelfth century, seems to have been drafted at least partly to reduce the increasing ambiguity of the pronoun system...[4]"



I really like looking into the history of language

[ativan]

I'm going to just quit saying all pronouns and use flash cards with weird pictures instead.
Maybe just blank cards. 

*I used to hand out blank business cards to people I didn't like.
*"It's blank.",... "Well, just call me if you have any questions."
*walk away 
Ativan

[Jamie D]

ASL

[Jamie D]

In English there are several different versions and it started as early st the 1500's


http://citizendia.org/Gender-neutral_pronoun



"In 1789, William H. Marshall records the existence of a dialectal English epicene pronoun, singular "ou": "'Ou will' expresses either he will, she will, or it will. " Marshall traces "ou" to Middle English epicene "a", used by the 14th century English writer John of Trevisa, and both the OED and Wright's English Dialect Dictionary confirm the use of "a" for he, she, it, they, and even I. This "a" is a reduced form of the Anglo-Saxon he = "he" and heo = "she". By the 12th and 13th centuries, these had often weakened to a point where, according to the OED, they were "almost or wholly indistinguishable in pronunciation. " The modern feminine pronoun she, which first appears in the mid twelfth century, seems to have been drafted at least partly to reduce the increasing ambiguity of the pronoun system...[4]"



I really like looking into the history of language

Neat history.  Thank you.

I was the other day discussing thorn (Þ, þ), eth (Ð, ð) and yogh (Ȝ, ȝ) - three lost letters in the English alphabet.