Sometimes I still think this is crazy

[shadowcat]

Not that I think the idea itself is crazy at, more that I just wonder if I'm overdoing it in regards to myself. 

I have a fairly open view of gender, and firmly believe in the right for a woman to be very masculine (and vice versa).  For most of my life, I've been content to just be very masculine, and female.  I was lucky in that I was allowed to be growing up.  There were a handful of times when I either "mis-"identified as male and got embarrassed about it, or later, openly questioned my gender in terms of "it would be so much easier if I was a guy."

I suppose I'm just worried that I'm exaggerating my gender issues and that I could be happy as woman.  But then again, I still hate the femaleness of my body and have for quite awhile.  I got to where I could rather ignore it, but as soon as I started questioning my gender again, it came back full force.  I'd be completely fine with a complete physical transition; the idea of it is actually appealing, despite the fact that I hate needles and wanted to never have invasive surgery if I could help it.

I'm not even sure I can say why I want this.  Is it because I really am a guy, or is it because of something else, something deeper, that I just haven't identified yet?  Or is wanting it simply enough?

I tell myself this would be easier if I was attracted to women, but I'm not really sure that's true.  I identify with a lot of the stories I've read on here, so maybe I'm just afraid of making a mistake on something that would so irrevocably alter the trajectory of my life. 

It doesn't help that I'm susceptible to paranoia either.  I'm aware of it at least, and the fact that it gets worse when I'm exhausted (and dealing with this is kind of exhausting)

I know I need therapy, but can't really afford it right now.  I also don't want it to go on my medical records, as I'd like to get health insurance that could cover this at some point, and don't want to get backstabbed by a preexisting condition.

Not really sure what I'm looking for from anyone; I'm just tired of driving myself crazy over this.  After awhile I'm starting to feel like a cat chasing its tail.  I guess I'm mostly looking for insight from someone who's been through this before.  Some validation perhaps, so I can tell off the voice in the back of my head telling me that I should be able to be happy as a woman.

[Hayzer12]

It is normal to feel uncertainty. I never had any, but that just is not the case for some people; most people I would assume have issues coming to terms with their gender when they venture outside of the stereotypical norm within the spectrum. It's challenging to question your gender, or yourself on any level for that matter.

You do need therapy, as you said. You can't even begin to know what you're going through sometimes, without someone there to guide you. My advice is to seek therapy. I know what it is like to not be able to afford it, so in the meantime, do a lot of soul searching and try to find a way to afford atleast one session, or perhaps get insurance and then try for it. But before you start making too many assumptions about yourself, and drive yourself crazy with the back and forth from your confusion, it may be best to wait and find a professional with experience to talk to.

[spacerace]

It is a process.

I felt like you did - then at one point, it was like a switch was flipped - I knew there was no way I could not transition. I knew I didn't want to live being seen as a woman, and I didn't want to die as a woman, or get old and become an old woman.

That doesn't mean there are no doubts. I have moments all the time where I step back for a second and think "wow, I am really transgender - holy <****> "

Transition may not be for you. That is fine too. You will never know until you make some sort of concrete step towards exploring how you feel. Hayzer's therapy recommendation is a good one.  If nothing else, it will make you face what it is like to tell someone you are having thoughts about being trans, and you may find it clarifies your feelings on the matter.

[shadowcat]

in the meantime, do a lot of soul searching and try to find a way to afford atleast one session, or perhaps get insurance and then try for it.

Yeah, I should at least give one session a shot.  I'm unfortunately not where I can get insurance to cover gender stuff, but hopefully there's a way to keep it off my record and from turning into a preexisting condition.

But before you start making too many assumptions about yourself, and drive yourself crazy with the back and forth from your confusion, it may be best to wait and find a professional with experience to talk to.

Haha, too late, I'm afraid.  If there was an off switch for that part of my brain, I seem to have lost it.  Starting to think I wasn't born with one of those either.  It certainly doesn't help that I really hate not having things settled or remaining undecided on things.

Transition may not be for you. That is fine too. You will never know until you make some sort of concrete step towards exploring how you feel. Hayzer's therapy recommendation is a good one.  If nothing else, it will make you face what it is like to tell someone you are having thoughts about being trans, and you may find it clarifies your feelings on the matter.

I've told a few friends, but that can't really compare to discussing it with a licensed professional who has actually studied it. 
Even at this point, it's validating enough to me that I want it to be true, even if I'm not exactly sure why.  I suppose a therapist could help me figure that out.

I suppose, having lived all my life as a masculine woman, I know how that works for me already, and it doesn't work as well as I'd like.  The thought of transition not being for me is actually more scary at this point than the thought of getting several complicated surgeries.

Perhaps I'm just afraid of the unknown, and that once I've gone past the point of irreversibility, I'll find that being a man doesn't work much better than being a masculine woman at all, however much I may want it now. 

[chuck]

but here's my number. call me maybe.

[shadowcat]

but here's my number. call me maybe.

really now.

[Hayzer12]

One bit more advice, you may be able to find a therapist that codes your session differently. I believe mine was coded as "adjustment disorder"... nothing gender  related came up.

[shadowcat]

One bit more advice, you may be able to find a therapist that codes your session differently. I believe mine was coded as "adjustment disorder"... nothing gender  related came up.

Thanks! I'll have to see if I can get that done.

[zombieinc]

I have a fairly open view of gender, and firmly believe in the right for a woman to be very masculine (and vice versa).  For most of my life, I've been content to just be very masculine, and female.  I was lucky in that I was allowed to be growing up.  There were a handful of times when I either "mis-"identified as male and got embarrassed about it, or later, openly questioned my gender in terms of "it would be so much easier if I was a guy."

I suppose I'm just worried that I'm exaggerating my gender issues and that I could be happy as woman.  But then again, I still hate the femaleness of my body and have for quite awhile.  I got to where I could rather ignore it, but as soon as I started questioning my gender again, it came back full force.  I'd be completely fine with a complete physical transition; the idea of it is actually appealing, despite the fact that I hate needles and wanted to never have invasive surgery if I could help it.

I'm not even sure I can say why I want this.  Is it because I really am a guy, or is it because of something else, something deeper, that I just haven't identified yet?  Or is wanting it simply enough?

I tell myself this would be easier if I was attracted to women, but I'm not really sure that's true.  I identify with a lot of the stories I've read on here, so maybe I'm just afraid of making a mistake on something that would so irrevocably alter the trajectory of my life. 

We could start a club!

Seriously, I think I'm having the same conversation with myself on a regular basis.

I've always been a masculine woman. I've been misidentified more times than I've been correctly gendered until recently when I decided to get laser hair removal treatments to my face to combat a severe case of ingrown hair/cystic acne. Here recently, I have been feeling a familiar itch that needs scratching. I call it "the trans shuffle itch". I want to transition, right here, right now...but I have a bunch of other things that need to be done first, like finishing my degree, getting a better job, rectifying my living situation, and getting healthy.

Then I think that maybe I'd better not transition in the near future. Because of x, y, or z reason, I'm ok with my lady bits, whatever. Then the next day I'm like "Screw this, I'm not a woman."

Thing is, I do want it. Just not now. Just not sure how I want it either. But I'm pretty sure that it (transition) is going to happen in the next decade of my life and most likely sooner rather than later. I love myself enough to say that now and mean it, whereas up until a few months ago, I hated that I wanted to transition and thought that dying would be easier and better than transitioning to become the man that I am inside.

As far as the whole "it'd be easier if I was attracted to women" thing...well, I am and it's not, at least not for me. Your gender is not  your sexuality. Hell, there are plenty of people who transition and end up switching teams or whatever you say. Likewise, there are lots of people who don't and just keep on living. Using your sexual preference as a reason for not transitioning if you are wanting to is unwise, imho.

[shadowcat]

We could start a club!

Seriously, I think I'm having the same conversation with myself on a regular basis.

I've always been a masculine woman. I've been misidentified more times than I've been correctly gendered until recently when I decided to get laser hair removal treatments to my face to combat a severe case of ingrown hair/cystic acne. Here recently, I have been feeling a familiar itch that needs scratching. I call it "the trans shuffle itch". I want to transition, right here, right now...but I have a bunch of other things that need to be done first, like finishing my degree, getting a better job, rectifying my living situation, and getting healthy.

Then I think that maybe I'd better not transition in the near future. Because of x, y, or z reason, I'm ok with my lady bits, whatever. Then the next day I'm like "Screw this, I'm not a woman."

Thing is, I do want it. Just not now. Just not sure how I want it either. But I'm pretty sure that it (transition) is going to happen in the next decade of my life and most likely sooner rather than later. I love myself enough to say that now and mean it, whereas up until a few months ago, I hated that I wanted to transition and thought that dying would be easier and better than transitioning to become the man that I am inside.

As far as the whole "it'd be easier if I was attracted to women" thing...well, I am and it's not, at least not for me. Your gender is not  your sexuality. Hell, there are plenty of people who transition and end up switching teams or whatever you say. Likewise, there are lots of people who don't and just keep on living. Using your sexual preference as a reason for not transitioning if you are wanting to is unwise, imho.

Glad to know I'm not the only one driving myself round and round on this.  Quite a club we'd make, the "chase yourself around in circles" club  
At least we'd get exercise.

It's only been a few months since I acknowledged anything myself, so maybe I'm just still coming to terms with the idea of transitioning being a viable option, perhaps even the best one for me (definitely for some of us!)  It's a lot to wrap your brain around.

I grew up pretty conservative, so the idea of being gay as a good thing is also fairly new to my way of thinking.  I'd put being trans out of my mind because of that, so I guess I'm still coming to terms with it too.  I suppose transitioning to being a straight guy seems more legitimate in my mind still, even though it shouldn't be.  It doesn't make any sense at all that trans guys couldn't be gay.

In the end, I just keep coming back to "I feel like a man" and the fact that I don't like the femaleness of my body and never have.  I feel like I should, on some abstract level.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with being female, I just don't want it for myself.  And since admitting that I'm trans, I've actually been able to be more accepting of women and how they are (in the ways that are different from me) Still, I don't want this to be about not wanting to be a woman, but about being a guy and needing to look like one too.  It's just hard to tell which one it is sometimes...

I expect I'll go around a few more times on this- probably more than just a few, given how my brain works.  Time for therapy!

Thanks for the input, man, and I hope things work out soon with your situation so you can pursue this.  It may be tough, but we'll be one hell of a survivor by the end of it, however we decide to go.  Not that that's any consolation at all, I guess I've just always seen scars as something to wear proudly... and something like this gives a lot of scars.

[zombieinc]

I grew up pretty conservative, so the idea of being gay as a good thing is also fairly new to my way of thinking.  I'd put being trans out of my mind because of that, so I guess I'm still coming to terms with it too.  I suppose transitioning to being a straight guy seems more legitimate in my mind still, even though it shouldn't be.  It doesn't make any sense at all that trans guys couldn't be gay.

In the end, I just keep coming back to "I feel like a man" and the fact that I don't like the femaleness of my body and never have.  I feel like I should, on some abstract level.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with being female, I just don't want it for myself.  And since admitting that I'm trans, I've actually been able to be more accepting of women and how they are (in the ways that are different from me) Still, I don't want this to be about not wanting to be a woman, but about being a guy and needing to look like one too.  It's just hard to tell which one it is sometimes...

I know how hard it is to think about sexuality in a positive light when you are surrounded by conservative thinking. I was a conservative Christian for most of my 20s due to converting in my early 20s. Even though my church was fairly liberal, it wasn't exactly supportive of homosexuality or anything besides vanilla sex within appropriate marriage boundaries. And they definitely enforced the binary there, because that's just how it is in those circles.

The part in bold is pretty much dead on for how I feel most of the time. I look at my body, I get disgusted because it's female (not overly so, but it still irks me) and I'm like, well...why? Then the circles begin. It always come back to "I feel like a man. " or "I am a man." As of late, it's more the latter than the former. I'm a man, I'm seen as female, this isn't right! How do I make it right? I have to transition. And if I transition, it could mean losing my family and friends. Am I ok with that? On some level yes, others no. I've already let go of my extended family and most of my friends over the past 3-4 years. I recently broke up with my girlfriend of 7 years who wasn't supportive of my decisions (not just the trans one) and wasn't that great of a person to begin with. So what do I have to do to fix this situation? How am I going to transition?

I haven't gotten that past that yet. Money. I need money. That's about it. I'll be finishing my degree in the fall (yipee!) and then getting a better job (woot!). So after that, maybe I'll see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

I also agree with your part on how you appreciate women more now that you've come out as trans. I do as well, although I had no trouble appreciating them before...  I just notice them more and I see their bodies differently. I can look at women now and see how they are made, how they move...and I can see that I'm just not like them. I'm fundamentally different, there's something not right. I can see that they see things differently, they think differently, I do not understand them....it is hard to explain, but since I've decided to pursue a path of transition, I have changed. I no longer identify as female and it has freed me to truly think about and feel things that I just didn't allow myself to explore before.

Meeting of the Circles Club is adjourned! For now, at least.

[Jeatyn]

It is a process.

I felt like you did - then at one point, it was like a switch was flipped - I knew there was no way I could not transition. I knew I didn't want to live being seen as a woman, and I didn't want to die as a woman, or get old and become an old woman.

That doesn't mean there are no doubts. I have moments all the time where I step back for a second and think "wow, I am really transgender - holy <****> "

I agree with all of this, I'm glad somebody else posted it first because I'll admit I was sort of embarrassed to admit  that even now I stop and think "wow I'm actually doing this, omg crazy" y'know...not that trans people or transitioning is crazy, but...yeah...you know what I mean 

I've been socially transitioned for over 5 years and on T for 10 months as my ticker says. I'm a bajillion times happier and healthier (mentally and physically) than I ever have been. Yet I still get the odd feeling of "I'm transitioning, woooah" I went in for my first consultation for surgery not long ago and I felt like I wasn't even there, like I was just watching my life on the TV...apparently the protocol is to have the first consultation and then let the patient go away to think about it for a month to see if they're really sure they want to go through with it. My first thought was "of COURSE I want to go through with it, duh" ... but then the other thoughts started creeping in of "surgery is a big deal, am I actually seriously 100% sure that I'm trans....why am I even thinking this? Of course I am, the progress I've made is evidence enough....BUT WHAT IF I'M NOT?"

As for feeling like life would be easier if you liked women, I went through that as well....both to "try being a lesbian" and also after I decided to transition to "try being straight"  but...nah...not interested. I like men. I have no doubt that if you do decide to transition you will have people saying "I don't understand! It'd be easier to pick up men if you stayed a woman!" - but it's not about that. Sure, it was easier to pick up guys as a woman...but they were straight guys. Straight guys who like women, I am not a woman, so the dynamics were never right. Being a man, with a man, in a gay relationship, feels so different to my previous relationships. Things don't feel "off" any more.

I'm not sure if that rambling was helpful in any way...but in a nutshell I'm saying I can relate to how you're feeling...but only you can decide if transitioning is right for you. I reached a rock bottom point before I fully questioned what I wanted out of life and how I pictured the future. I could not picture myself as an old woman, or even a woman in her 30's...couldn't see myself getting a job...getting married and being a wife...nope...couldn't picture any of that. The future seemed pointless. Picturing myself as a guy was a whole different story...I'd been doing that subconsciously my whole life right back to nursery school when I would always "pretend" to be a guy during make believe games. I realised that I wasn't actually pretending, and all those times I joked that "I should have been born a boy" weren't jokes at all, just my inner self trying to get out.

[wanderingamoeba]

I worry sometimes, too, about this. I'm non-binary-leaning-masculine, and if I start thinking too hard I wonder if my desire to move toward androgyny just means I have major internalized misogyny issues.

In the end, I think it's important to keep evaluating why you're going in whatever direction you're going, but not to the extent that it keeps you from getting anywhere. Eventually, you have to move in some direction. If it turns out to be a direction you find you're not totally satisfied with, well, that's okay. Things change. People change. (For those of us who weren't particularly gender variant as children, heck, that's how we got here in the first place.) There's nothing wrong with that.

Basically, remember to breathe, and do what you need to so the paranoia doesn't prevent you from living your best life.

[shadowcat]

Thanks for your responses, guys.  I'm still uncertain, but feel less like I'm running mental circles around myself. 

I know how hard it is to think about sexuality in a positive light when you are surrounded by conservative thinking. I was a conservative Christian for most of my 20s due to converting in my early 20s. Even though my church was fairly liberal, it wasn't exactly supportive of homosexuality or anything besides vanilla sex within appropriate marriage boundaries. And they definitely enforced the binary there, because that's just how it is in those circles.

And if I transition, it could mean losing my family and friends. Am I ok with that? On some level yes, others no.

I'm right there with you, except I was raised in it.  The thought of losing my family over it hurts, but I know it's a very real possibility, and if it happens, it's just something I'll have to deal with.  I am a pretty individualistic person, so I think I'd cope better than some, but still, ouch.  I think, being accepted as their (gay) son, would probably make my year, if not my life.  I'd be floored, to say the least...  And to think I was in the same place as them on this stuff not too many years ago.  No wonder it's taken me this long to admit.

I still feel compelled to apologize to LGBT people for Christian behavior too, "we're not all like this!" etc... and then I have to remind myself that I actually am LGBT.  Oh the irony...

I haven't gotten that past that yet. Money. I need money. That's about it. I'll be finishing my degree in the fall (yipee!) and then getting a better job (woot!). So after that, maybe I'll see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

Grats on your upcoming graduation! That's a good feeling: take that college! I have conquered you!  I feel ya on the job issue.  Yes.  Better jobs for everyone!

I also agree with your part on how you appreciate women more now that you've come out as trans. I do as well, although I had no trouble appreciating them before...  I just notice them more and I see their bodies differently. I can look at women now and see how they are made, how they move...and I can see that I'm just not like them. I'm fundamentally different, there's something not right. I can see that they see things differently, they think differently, I do not understand them....it is hard to explain, but since I've decided to pursue a path of transition, I have changed. I no longer identify as female and it has freed me to truly think about and feel things that I just didn't allow myself to explore before.

I started picking up on the difference in behavior/thinking and my inability to understand them in college.  At first I was all like "men and women think the same; it's just social conditioning!" but then eventually I realized that didn't apply to a lot of women, and it's mostly just me.  There's men I don't understand too, like the super masculine ones that are all 'sports, rawr', but I think besides the team-playing sports bit, what I mostly don't understand is the liking women part

I went in for my first consultation for surgery not long ago and I felt like I wasn't even there, like I was just watching my life on the TV...

I hate it when my brain does this.  It's so jarring lol.  I invariably start analyzing myself as if I was another person and it's very disconcerting.  Connection I just made: this happens most often when I'm in front of the mirror and feel like I hardly know the person looking back at me, hmm...

As for feeling like life would be easier if you liked women, I went through that as well....both to "try being a lesbian" and also after I decided to transition to "try being straight"  but...nah...not interested. I like men. I have no doubt that if you do decide to transition you will have people saying "I don't understand! It'd be easier to pick up men if you stayed a woman!" - but it's not about that. Sure, it was easier to pick up guys as a woman...but they were straight guys. Straight guys who like women, I am not a woman, so the dynamics were never right. Being a man, with a man, in a gay relationship, feels so different to my previous relationships. Things don't feel "off" any more.

I don't think I could ever try being lesbian or straight (afterwards), unless my orientation shifts that way during transition.  That would be an adjustment.  I am beginning to realize that I don't really want to be with a straight ma; the thought of being with someone who wanted to interact with my female parts is not okay :[

Even admitting my own inexperience, the thought of being in a relationship with a man as a man is soooo much more appealing to my mind, and oddly freeing actually.  I feel like I could just be myself, instead of trying to act like a woman, or hoping for that one in a million straight (likely bi) guy that could appreciate me for myself.

I'm not sure if that rambling was helpful in any way...but in a nutshell I'm saying I can relate to how you're feeling...but only you can decide if transitioning is right for you. I reached a rock bottom point before I fully questioned what I wanted out of life and how I pictured the future. I could not picture myself as an old woman, or even a woman in her 30's...couldn't see myself getting a job...getting married and being a wife...nope...couldn't picture any of that. The future seemed pointless. Picturing myself as a guy was a whole different story...I'd been doing that subconsciously my whole life right back to nursery school when I would always "pretend" to be a guy during make believe games. I realised that I wasn't actually pretending, and all those times I joked that "I should have been born a boy" weren't jokes at all, just my inner self trying to get out.

I write absurdly long sci-fi/fantasy stories for fun, chances are I don't even notice when someone's rambling

I used to picture myself as an old woman, mostly just in so much as I was going to be that crazy driving old lady that scared everyone driving like she was on a race track.  But... since this all blew open and I realized I'm trans, the thought of being female is just 'ugh', now, or in the future.  Even typing 'she' in relation to myself just feels wrong... which is pretty normal, actually.  Those pronouns never really felt like they fit right.

I played a ton of make believe / role playing as a kid, and I can't recall a single time I played a female.  It was always a male character, and it rarely entered my mind to play a female.  So I totally understand where you're coming from with that.  I thought it was pretty normal for a girl to play a guy, and never really noticed the severe lack of female protagonists.  I would rather have been a male anyway.

I worry sometimes, too, about this. I'm non-binary-leaning-masculine, and if I start thinking too hard I wonder if my desire to move toward androgyny just means I have major internalized misogyny issues.

In the end, I think it's important to keep evaluating why you're going in whatever direction you're going, but not to the extent that it keeps you from getting anywhere. Eventually, you have to move in some direction. If it turns out to be a direction you find you're not totally satisfied with, well, that's okay. Things change. People change. (For those of us who weren't particularly gender variant as children, heck, that's how we got here in the first place.) There's nothing wrong with that.

Basically, remember to breathe, and do what you need to so the paranoia doesn't prevent you from living your best life.

I've also wondered if it's the remnants of my old misogyny plenty of times.  I was pretty terrible as a kid, and while I knew I technically belonged to the "female gender" because of my body, being a girl never really seemed to apply to me, and I sneered at a lot of it.  I've turned into a definite feminist since then, though it's only be lately that it's been less of "other women should just be more like me! aka more like a man" and into "there really isn't anything wrong with femininity", but I think I'm still trying to convince myself of that just as much as anyone else.  Realizing that it probably doesn't apply to me at all (which was probably why I hated it so much as a kid) actually helps a lot with accepting femininity as a valid expression of humanity.

But then again, I feel masculinity should be perfectly acceptable in a woman as well, and thus the fear that this has more to deal with misogyny and less to do with how my brain is wired.  Not necessarily an easy question to answer...


I'm at least feeling more confident about all this.  Enough to keep moving forward, at least.  Sometimes it really just helps to hear from others who've been there / are there too.  As much as I do so hate admitting I need help >_>

[zombieinc]

I started picking up on the difference in behavior/thinking and my inability to understand them in college.  At first I was all like "men and women think the same; it's just social conditioning!" but then eventually I realized that didn't apply to a lot of women, and it's mostly just me.  There's men I don't understand too, like the super masculine ones that are all 'sports, rawr', but I think besides the team-playing sports bit, what I mostly don't understand is the liking women part

I've never understood women. Ever. Jr high and high school were the worst parts of my life for that reason. I didn't fit in with girls, I was "weird". I liked metal, was a total goth, wore men's clothes more often than not, played computer games, watched horror movies. I didn't like boys, never flirted, couldn't have cared less about their presence or non-presence in my life. I had a few good friends (2 female, 1 male) and that was pretty much it.

College (round 1) wasn't easy either, but I majored in a hard science field and was literally the only female-bodied person in most of classes once I completed my gen ed requirements. I did well, worked hard, studied hard, and beat the guys at the own game sometimes. The guys accepted me, we understood each other, and I was rarely seen as a woman. I was just another person in the lab or in the group or whatever. It was nice, most of the time.

Post-college is where I hit a wall. I got involved in a relationship with a woman that was totally imbalanced, ended up accepted a job that was total crap, started drinking a lot to cope with things. (I think that was probably the first round of "OMG! Trans-ness ahead!" feelings and thoughts in my life.) Went into deep depression, encountered Christ and the next 5 years were spent hating myself and trying to buy what Christianity was selling. That meant denying that I was trans, that I was attracted women, that I was liberal-leaning politically, and that even meant denying my love of science and maths, which truth be told, was far and away the hardest part of the bs bargain with Jesus.

As for not liking women....well, to each their own. Bioguys are gay, straight, bi, asexual, pansexual...there's a lot of variety there. It's true that most guys are attracted to women and vice versa. But that's not always the case and like I said in another post, you may find that your sexuality becomes more open or varied as you transition...or not. If you are a gay guy, there's no shame in it and doesn't invalidate your need to transition. Your sexuality is just one (tiny, imo) part of who you are as a person.

I am a pretty individualistic person, so I think I'd cope better than some, but still, ouch.  I think, being accepted as their (gay) son, would probably make my year, if not my life.  I'd be floored, to say the least...  And to think I was in the same place as them on this stuff not too many years ago.  No wonder it's taken me this long to admit.

I still feel compelled to apologize to LGBT people for Christian behavior too, "we're not all like this!" etc... and then I have to remind myself that I actually am LGBT.  Oh the irony...

It has taken me a long time to fully admit two things about myself: that I'm trans and that I am attracted to women. Most of the reasons why it took so long for me to realize these things was that every time I told friends in the church or my second therapist (who worked in the church I used to attend) these things...I was shut down and told that I was confused, the enemy was getting to me, etc. This continued for 4 years. It's only the past year or so that I've stopped denying the truth about myself and just let myself live. I had to walk away from the church to do so.

I stopped apologizing after I left the church. There were openly gay and lesbian people in my church....but the general consensus was that you were only homosexual if and until the Almighty placed the person (opposite gendered) in your life that you were supposed to  marry, have kids with, etc. It was a strange paradox of sorts, where homosexuals were appreciated as people, their contributions valuable to the church and the community accepting of their choices. However, their acceptance was not truly acceptance, but some strange fantasy where homosexuality or bisexuality or whatever could be and would healed if you were willing to deny yourself and marry someone of the opposite gender at some point in your life.

It was mental freakery at its finest, imo, and I do think that a lot of us were struggling in that supposedly liberal church were ashamed of our desires, ourselves. That's a big part of why I left. I just couldn't stand the shame and anger.

I don't think I could ever try being lesbian or straight (afterwards), unless my orientation shifts that way during transition.  That would be an adjustment.  I am beginning to realize that I don't really want to be with a straight man; the thought of being with someone who wanted to interact with my female parts is not okay :[

Even admitting my own inexperience, the thought of being in a relationship with a man as a man is soooo much more appealing to my mind, and oddly freeing actually.  I feel like I could just be myself, instead of trying to act like a woman, or hoping for that one in a million straight (likely bi) guy that could appreciate me for myself.

I learned this the hard way. (Pun possibly intended.  ) I have been with men sexually before, mostly when  I still cared about not being seen as a lesbian. The area where I live isn't very tolerant, neither is my family...so I had a lot at stake when I pretended to be straight.

And I think that some of my need to transition is also somewhat tied to my sexuality as well. Like you, I want to be myself. I don't want to have to act like a woman or to always have to fulfill female roles in a relationship. I don't believe in true love, one-in-a-million, love a first sight, that one God created connection...none of it. Not for me as a woman, anyway. I don't want to be with another woman as a woman ever again. I spent the past 7 years in a relationship with a woman (we had an open relationship and were pretty stealth up until the past 2 years.) My inability to fulfill her intimate needs was a huge factor in why we eventually broke up. I never could go there with her, really let myself go. I hated my body, hated myself, too much to do so. And then I'd go to God, get all worked up over my "sin" issue.

[shadowcat]

In which I wrote a whole post and it gotten eaten.  Yay.

I've never understood women. Ever. Jr high and high school were the worst parts of my life for that reason. I didn't fit in with girls, I was "weird". I liked metal, was a total goth, wore men's clothes more often than not, played computer games, watched horror movies. I didn't like boys, never flirted, couldn't have cared less about their presence or non-presence in my life. I had a few good friends (2 female, 1 male) and that was pretty much it.

Metal, goth, and computer games are awesome.  I probably would have been goth if I'd been that aware of it at the time.  Mostly I just wore a lot of black without even realizing it.

I mostly hung out with a couple of friends in my teenage years, the female of whom was fairly gender variant too, so I guess I just didn't really pick up on my disconnect with other females at the time.

College (round 1) wasn't easy either, but I majored in a hard science field and was literally the only female-bodied person in most of classes once I completed my gen ed requirements. I did well, worked hard, studied hard, and beat the guys at the own game sometimes. The guys accepted me, we understood each other, and I was rarely seen as a woman. I was just another person in the lab or in the group or whatever. It was nice, most of the time.

Go You.  I almost majored in Chemistry, but probably would not have made it very far.  I was far better at Linguistics, anyway, but I do love science.

Went into deep depression, encountered Christ and the next 5 years were spent hating myself and trying to buy what Christianity was selling. That meant denying that I was trans, that I was attracted women, that I was liberal-leaning politically, and that even meant denying my love of science and maths, which truth be told, was far and away the hardest part of the bs bargain with Jesus.

Most of the reasons why it took so long for me to realize these things was that every time I told friends in the church or my second therapist (who worked in the church I used to attend) these things...I was shut down and told that I was confused, the enemy was getting to me, etc. This continued for 4 years. It's only the past year or so that I've stopped denying the truth about myself and just let myself live. I had to walk away from the church to do so.

I stopped apologizing after I left the church. There were openly gay and lesbian people in my church....but the general consensus was that you were only homosexual if and until the Almighty placed the person (opposite gendered) in your life that you were supposed to  marry, have kids with, etc. It was a strange paradox of sorts, where homosexuals were appreciated as people, their contributions valuable to the church and the community accepting of their choices. However, their acceptance was not truly acceptance, but some strange fantasy where homosexuality or bisexuality or whatever could be and would healed if you were willing to deny yourself and marry someone of the opposite gender at some point in your life.

It was mental freakery at its finest, imo, and I do think that a lot of us were struggling in that supposedly liberal church were ashamed of our desires, ourselves. That's a big part of why I left. I just couldn't stand the shame and anger.

I'm so sorry this was your experience with Christianity :S  I'd laugh at that church for calling itself liberal if it wasn't so horrible.  Any ideology that induces that much shame needs a lot of reexamination in my opinion.  Not to mention that their "theories" about gay people just aren't true. Period.  Ugh.

I have no desire to have a church affiliated therapist right now, and being very careful about even telling people associated with the church.  I'm pretty much expected similar shut-down and guilt-tripping techniques if I do.  Especially from the parents >_>

I will say, my current church is very affirming of LGBT people and their relationships, at least the LGB.  I've never heard anything regarding trans people from them to know how they'd react, but eh, I'm probably moving soon anyway, so it's not high on my list of concerns.

I hated my body, hated myself, too much to do so. And then I'd go to God, get all worked up over my "sin" issue.

I did that soooo much when I started becoming a feminist and it finally got down to "I can't accept what conservatives say about women unless it's proven unequivocally right, to me, personally" which never happened.  Never going back to beating myself up over 'sin', though.  Didn't do anything except make me spiral into depression.  Curiously, that was also when I had my first legit conversation with myself about the possibility of becoming a man physically (though I thought it was completely out of reach medically at that point)

[zombieinc]

I'm so sorry this was your experience with Christianity :S  I'd laugh at that church for calling itself liberal if it wasn't so horrible.  Any ideology that induces that much shame needs a lot of reexamination in my opinion.  Not to mention that their "theories" about gay people just aren't true. Period.  Ugh.

Theories about such things are a dime a dozen in the Christian world. I know that there are denominations out there that are open and accepting of the LGBT community. I just don't have the interest in pursuing them right now.

I'd also like to add that a lot of the shame I experienced was of the subtle variety. People making comments, making light of my sexuality, etc. Maybe they're uncomfortable or whatever, just telling a joke...but no. It just doesn't work.

Much like a gay or lesbian person marrying a straight person or a gay man and lesbian getting married isn't going to work. Sure, there is that guy that was on Ricki Lake talking about how great his marriage is even though he identifies as gay. They even have 3 kids together! Whoopee! And there was another couple I saw on Lisa Ling awhile back that was a gay man married to a woman (no sexuality given for her, assumed she was straight). They had a lot of issues, weren't intimate, etc. So that scenario doesn't seem to work, no matter how much Christians want it to work.

I suspect that a lot of lesbians and bisexual women involved in the church do marry men, for various reasons. And that's fine, if that's what they want to do. But I think that many of them are only married to men to hide their true sexuality. That's not healthy and that's precisely why I refuse to be involved in any sort of sexual relationship at this point in my life. Sure, I could be involved with a man, maybe even marry one...but it would be me lying, all of the time, making someone else completely miserable.

I did that soooo much when I started becoming a feminist and it finally got down to "I can't accept what conservatives say about women unless it's proven unequivocally right, to me, personally" which never happened.  Never going back to beating myself up over 'sin', though.  Didn't do anything except make me spiral into depression.  Curiously, that was also when I had my first legit conversation with myself about the possibility of becoming a man physically (though I thought it was completely out of reach medically at that point)

No one should be blindly accepting what conservatives say about women. In the immortal words of George Carlin, "They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women. They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state."

How much clearer can you get? It's true. I don't want to derail this thread with my rant here...but seriously, it's true. I don't know how Christian women, particularly those of a true Conservative stripe, can go on living their narrow lives. I'm fascinated by the way things have become in that arena because early Christianity was a very feminist (a movement for women's rights within marriage, fwiw, in the context of the Late Roman empire) movement. You'd never guess that nowadays.

I hear ya on the spiraling depression thing. I did that for far too long. However, suffering is really good for you, or so the church seems to think. It helps build character or something...And yes, I too had a similar experience during my tortured Christian days. One day, I was depressed and writing in my journal. Something snapped. I realized that I was a man, viewing the events of my life as a female. I was sad because I was trapped and at the same time, elated because I finally figured out what was going on within me. The happiness didn't last long, but at least I had hope, which was better than the nothingness I had before.

[insideontheoutside]

I knew I didn't want to live being seen as a woman, and I didn't want to die as a woman, or get old and become an old woman.

Spacerace beautifully illustrates here the variety of perspectives. And it's pretty personal. I've seen the dialog so far in this thread and while some people have similarities, what it comes down to is an individual perspective, and that perspective influences choices and decisions.

For me, I haven't been able to change my perspective on some physical realities. Like, the way I look at it, even if I had transitioned, I'd still die a "women" in other people's eyes ... because I was never going to have surgeries. I suppose it doesn't really matter if you're dead. Having people see you as a women throughout your life, well that's a different story and it seems to be one of top reasons why people transition. For society as a whole to treat you as male, you have to at least look the part. Then there's levels of that. You could look male, or pass for male, but still not have your name changed or your gender marker changed. Sure anyone can change their name, but the gender marker is another thing. Every state seems to be different on that (and every country for that matter). Some require people to have surgery (including bottom surgery) in order to change that. What if you don't want surgery (and I have observed a few people kind of circumvent some things in order to get the M on their ID and get away with it before or without surgery)? You'll be running around basically with an F for legal, medical, and other reasons, but otherwise look like a male with a male name. I guess you could always move. But you can see how this all stacks up to be problematic. There's not just a single hurdle to jump over, there's many, and it might continue you for years until you're settled and have checked off all the appropriate transition boxes. Personally, I don't think transition ever stops - because once you go on hormones, most people stay on them for life. There's a few who stop, but it's not the majority it seems. That means that you're dependent on a "medication" for the rest of your life, but it's not a medication that technically keeps you alive (not going to discuss suicide here), it's a medication that changes your physical appearance so that you = male to society. What if you lose your insurance or something else happens that you can't get that "medicine" anymore? What if (in the U.S.) everything changes with Obamacare and getting on hormones isn't as easy as it used to be? I really hope it doesn't change but what's the contingency plan if something like that were to happen?

I just got to a point in my life where I literally just said, "F**K IT. I don't care anymore what people 'see' me as." I'll tell you, it's not an easy place to get to and I think a lot of people never even consider that because they hate being seen as female in society too much. Well, it's not like I LIKE that aspect of it, but I'm perfectly fine with being seen as androgynous as well. Actually it makes me way more comfortable to be seen as androgynous than to be seen as female (basically because I'm not female, never have been). I never was presented (or even knew about) the opportunity to transition genders when I was younger. I always dreamed about magically waking up one day in the perfect male body, but I always knew it was a fantasy. Even within the past 3 years I've considered if there was a way I could take a low dose of T in a cream or something. But I'm not shooting for transition either. I'll probably never even change my name. The real key to this all working for me though is that I've already attained happiness in just about every other area of my life. I'm married, I have a house, I have some friends that know my "secret" and accept me, I have supportive people I can turn to if I need help with things like exercise, nutrition, and medical needs, I have a pretty great career, and hobbies. My gender doesn't often come up. Sure I get a "ma'am" now and then from store clerks and I really hate "ma'am", but it's a few seconds out of my life. I don't find any trouble with doing all the things I like to do ... I work on my car, I go to the gun range, I go fishing and camping, I took up boxing, I smoke cigars on occasion ... all of these "typically male" things (not that plenty of women don't do these types of things either, but you get what I mean) I've never been discriminated against doing, challenged, or even looked at funny. The only time I couldn't do a male activity was play pee wee league football when I was 13. It could just be the way I carry myself and my general attitude. I certainly act male because I've always been confident of myself and abilities, I don't let people push me around, I don't know how else to put it, but I don't put off that "female vibe". People I interact with regularly don't treat me female either (except for my mom ... but that's another whole story).

All these things I've weighed over the last 5 years, and now that I'm 40 and all these other things in my life are finally okay, I don't have the desire, energy, or inclination to go through transition. I don't want to be on a medication for the rest of my life. But that will never change who I am. That's my perspective.

[shadowcat]

Theories about such things are a dime a dozen in the Christian world. I know that there are denominations out there that are open and accepting of the LGBT community. I just don't have the interest in pursuing them right now.

So that scenario doesn't seem to work, no matter how much Christians want it to work.

Ugh, I know what you mean. I grew up in it, only hearing that narrative.  Luckily I didn't realize how personal it was to me until after my views had broadened and shifted, but I've seen it cause so much pain. Tragic, and it really needs to end.

I just got to a point in my life where I literally just said, "F**K IT. I don't care anymore what people 'see' me as." I'll tell you, it's not an easy place to get to and I think a lot of people never even consider that because they hate being seen as female in society too much. Well, it's not like I LIKE that aspect of it, but I'm perfectly fine with being seen as androgynous as well. Actually it makes me way more comfortable to be seen as androgynous than to be seen as female (basically because I'm not female, never have been). I never was presented (or even knew about) the opportunity to transition genders when I was younger. I always dreamed about magically waking up one day in the perfect male body, but I always knew it was a fantasy. 

That definitely makes sense, and I'm glad you were able to find that place.  Androgyny is definable more comfortable for me too than being perceived as female, and I always give off a more male air. I think the main reason I'm willing to go through with multiple surgeries and needing a medicine for the rest of my life is my own private discomfort with my body. Even if no one else can tell, I'm aware of its femaleness, and it's like a rusty nail in the back of my mind...  I'm also already on medication (not life saving but necessary) for life and have been since I was five, so the thought of having to take T the rest of my life is only mildly annoying to me. I can totally see how someone wouldn't want to be in that position though, and I recognize that. There is, after all a great variation in gender and perspectives, and should be in gender expression as well.

[insideontheoutside]

There is, after all a great variation in gender and perspectives, and should be in gender expression as well.

Yeah I totally agree. I'm still not 100% cool with my body by any means. If I could snap my fingers and lose the moobs I would. I'll never have a functioning lower unit up to my standards though, which is one of those realities I have to learn to live with.