Why the F* should we bother paying for this site?

[Yuki-jker86]

Thank you Cindy, you are very kind

I don't need much support at the moment, I'm just feeling a bit tired from lack of sleep and depressed as a result and also got my first referral the day after tomorrow.

I just hope to keep sharing ideas with everyone here
I think this is a wonderful place to offer support to others and also share in new ideas.

[Misato]

I know it would feel good to donate.  NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.

My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due.  One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost.  Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds.  I want to be that person.  I want to help....  Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.

Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.

Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen.  I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year.  I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.

It'll be wierd not coming here...

[Susan]

I know it would feel good to donate.  NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.

My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due.  One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost.  Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds.  I want to be that person.  I want to help....  Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.

Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.

Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen.  I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year.  I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.

It'll be wierd not coming here...

Make your group happen! That is what is most important!

The badges are simply to thank people who are supporting the site, they ARE NOT to "twist the knife!" I promise! That being said, I will not stop recognizing people who are contributing to the site simply because someone may feel bad about it.

If you can't contribute, you can either talk to Cindy about one of her membership scholarships. If she awards you one, it will give you a silver subscription for 3 months. Or, you can choose to volunteer your time on the site. You have more than enough posts to qualify.

[AdamMLP]

I don't know where the right place to say this is, so move this if you like...

One of the reoccurring themes for the future of this site is giving it a make over.  I don't spend much time on the other parts of this site, and I don't know how much traffic they get, but as far as the forums are concerned the only visably outdated parts are the banner at the top and the favicon.  As for the rest of it, simply changing to a sans serif font and changing the slightly pixelated background will probably make a world of difference.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I would much rather there be less pressure on getting donations in order to be able to survive and having one or two areas of dated formatting on the site.  Maybe searching for a member with experience who's willing to volunteer would be worthwhile... if I had the knowledge I would gladly volunteer, but as much as I wish I did, I can't pretend that I do.

[Ltl89]

I know it would feel good to donate.  NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.

My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due.  One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost.  Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds.  I want to be that person.  I want to help....  Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.

Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.

Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen.  I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year.  I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.

It'll be wierd not coming here...

Misato, don't let it get ti you.   The intention of the donations was to help rhe site, not to shame us.  I do think some here took it overboard in what they said in response to those who are broke, but it didn't come from the staff or majority here.  At the end of rhe day, it's about a lot more than pure dollars.  I have come on this site and pmed for hours when I didn't have rhe time to comfort rhise considering suicide or self harm.  I alsi did the same with posting.  I an here ti help others in the way that I can.  And this is a way rhat you can continue to help the site with as well.  I know you have been helpful to me and i'd hate ro see you go.

I don't have a problem with the banners,  but I see your point.  There are plenty of studies rhat show how status symbols or distinguishing marks can create in group conflict.  It's not the intention of rhe staff,  but some may make judgements on others.  It's been proven again and again in the social sciences.  Nonetheless,  keep solace in rhe fact that you have contributed a lot to this site and no amount of money can belittle or match that.   Don't feel bad about your situation.

[bethany]

Maybe the banners are not that good of an idea. People are already listed on the donations page, so to have it out in the forefront might just be adding salt to the wounds.

And now a question. If people donated anonymously would they still get a badge?

Susan I will kindly ask you or any other mod here to please remove the donation badge from my profile.

Thank you

[Susan]

The banners will be staying.

As of right now I have very few ways to recognize the people who are contributing. The Just for us forums are a nice perk; but by themselves they are not enough.  The forum badges are another means of recognition.

People who chose to donate anonymously do not get badges as they are not added to the donator group. If someone who donated anonymously wishes to change their mind, they can get in touch with me.

The badges are tied to the various account groups and cannot be individually removed.

[Lorri Kat]

Here's some New York ''BLUNT''.
Regardless of intentions the implementation rollout, quite crass and insulting in tone at times, of this 'site saving endeavor'   with  its .. "special listings", "badges" and secret pay only areas it is quite easy to see, no matter what some may wont to tell themselves or believe, that there are now several classes of people here.  And WE know it.      FYI ..67% below poverty level, live a year in my life then tell me it's only such and such a month...    I was and still am beyond livid about the insulting words, being berated and worse ...all from alleged support group staff.   Those in positions of authority MUST think before they speak.

I would suggest maybe looking more into these aspects.  Sell adds(add bar and pop ups) , allow subscribers to view the site free of pop ups but not the add bar at the top of each page, a hard limit on pictures posted per month for non-subscribers, a donation button on every page but keep the site fully open to normal members.  Even though the site has an 'old' look it adequately serves its purpose and is still functionally  sound.    Does it really truly need to be reworked?    'Secret' areas breed distrust, animosity  and elitism attitudes;  I've seen the destructive and splintering force this demon wields.

Push has come to shove for this site so an income source needs to be generated and therefore  you do what you have to.  The trick is mitigating the hurt to people as much as possible while doing that. Change is rarely painless, which we all know too well and all I can do is wish you success at this point.   "In life, no good deed goes unpunished."

[Ltl89]

Here's some New York ''BLUNT''.
Regardless of intentions the implementation rollout, quite crass and insulting in tone at times, of this 'site saving endeavor'   with  its .. "special listings", "badges" and secret pay only areas it is quite easy to see, no matter what some may wont to tell themselves or believe, that there are now several classes of people here.  And WE know it.      FYI ..67% below poverty level, live a year in my life then tell me it's only such and such a month...    I was and still am beyond livid about the insulting words, being berated and worse ...all from alleged support group staff.   Those in positions of authority MUST think before they speak.

I would suggest maybe looking more into these aspects.  Sell adds(add bar and pop ups) , allow subscribers to view the site free of pop ups but not the add bar at the top of each page, a hard limit on pictures posted per month for non-subscribers, a donation button on every page but keep the site fully open to normal members.  Even though the site has an 'old' look it adequately serves its purpose and is still functionally  sound.    Does it really truly need to be reworked?    'Secret' areas breed distrust, animosity  and elitism attitudes;  I've seen the destructive and splintering force this demon wields.

Push has come to shove for this site so an income source needs to be generated and therefore  you do what you have to.  The trick is mitigating the hurt to people as much as possible while doing that. Change is rarely painless, which we all know too well and all I can do is wish you success at this point.   "In life, no good deed goes unpunished."

*Now that I finally have a computer in front of me and can ditch taptalk for a second, maybe my posts will come out a bit more coherent than my last,lol.

I myself live in NY and am broke, so I can totally relate.  For this reason, I reacted the same way at first. I must admit, some of the initial commentary really bothered me; however, most of what was said that was offensive and lacking empathy was not said by staff.  I don't agree with Cindy's choice of words, but I realize she meant no harm in what she stated.  The rest of the staff and Cindy have no intentions of putting us in classes.

Having said that, you make a great point that I think the staff is ignoring or not seeing clearly.  Creating status badges and secret areas for one group of members will create subgroups within our community.  Even if that isn't the goal, it will happen.  I would love to share some studies that have been done in political psychology that shows how easy it is to create elites within an in group.  Give a few kids a ball and the rest of the children feel belittled while the other feels superior.  It's simple human nature.  Personally, I could care less about the badges and the just for us section, but I know others will and hate what impact it may have.  It is easy to create friction within a group.  It's this reason that church's aren't supposed to give perks to members who donate over those who don't.  It diminishes the sense of community.  In a support group, that is detrimental.  I know I can't change the staff's mind, but I do want to warn you as you have already seen the grief it has caused from your frequent users. 

As I said before, there is much more important things than badges and perks.  I have done some good on this site during my short stay here.  I have talked to those who need, sometimes in severe situations, and I know I made an impact.  On the same token, many have done the same for me.  That's why this site is important.  It's about the support that we all have for one another and the sense of community.  Let's not tear it down over petty things.  The site needs money to run and that's the reality.  All that really matters is that we continue to be a family.  I hope that we won't have in group fighting and that we can't get over this little intro phase.  Let's all maintain our community.   Please, if you don't have a badge, like me, don't take it personally.  If you do, that doesn't mean you are more special or have contributed more than your poor peers here.  Sure dollar wise that may be true, but many of us have also contributed our time and support as well.  Let's not lose site of that.  Please let's all get along.

[Donna Elvira]

Maybe the banners are not that good of an idea. People are already listed on the donations page, so to have it out in the forefront might just be adding salt to the wounds.

And now a question. If people donated anonymously would they still get a badge?

Susan I will kindly ask you or any other mod here to please remove the donation badge from my profile.

Thank you

I have avoided getting into this debate up until now as I have already found it too divisive for my taste and didn't want to say anything that might make things worse. So, hoping this won't be the case here's my two "centimes" worth.

Like Bethany, I really dislike the badges and had I known they were going to be put in place I would certainly have donated anonymously. Same thing for the subscriptions as I don't think we need permanent reminders on every page of this forum of who has made a financial contribution and who has not. As others have said, it can only lead to people feeling there are different categories of "Citizen" here and that would be very unhealthy for the overall quality and warmth of the exchanges. I feel the same way about the zones reserved for subscribers only. Not only are they divisive, they will also be that much poorer in content if so many people are excluded from them.

I understand that there are a very large number of people here in a state of extreme fragility and as a person who can still remember what that felt like many years ago, I am personally very happy to contribute in a reasonable manner to insuring they have a place to come to where they immediately feel welcome, part of a family with no immediate pressure to contribute anything.

However, as a reminder that the site does need funds to operate, I see no issue in having a donations page and a subscribers page showing who has signed up as without this it would be easy to forget the whole subject and go back to imagining that all of this is someone else's problem.  I have absolutely no idea how many people have signed up for subscriptions but if the donations page is anything to go by, the results so far can only be described as very disappointing.

Hopefully, with time a donation culture will develop here as those who were once in difficulty move on to a happier state and remember how much they owe to this place.  To make this happen, the subject really does  have to remain visible but again, if it was me, I would actually have left it at donations with maybe some kind of reminder every month concerning the level of donations attained.  In my mind the subscriptions just add complexity with no obvious pluses and a whole series  of what look like obvious negatives to me.   

Hopefully I haven't added any oïl to the fire and as one who was a teenager in the early seventies: Peace and love my friends!
Bises
Donna

P.S. Apart from the fact that I really dislike pop-ups etc..,  since almost everyone here seems to be flat broke, how much revenue do you people think businesses  would generate by advertizing here? 

[Devlyn]

No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"

The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn

PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.

[Edge]

Personally, I don't mind what Cindi said or the badges (although they do make me a little uncomfortable and I'm wondering if I can ask that I not have one when I do get enough money to subscribe and/or donate). What did get to me are some of the responses. They were deleted (thanks), but they were hurtful and it makes me wonder how many people agree with them and how much hostility will arise.

[Sara Thomas]

As I said before, there is much more important things than badges and perks.  I have done some good on this site during my short stay here.  I have talked to those who need, sometimes in severe situations, and I know I made an impact.  On the same token, many have done the same for me.  That's why this site is important.  It's about the support that we all have for one another and the sense of community.  Let's not tear it down over petty things.  The site needs money to run and that's the reality.  All that really matters is that we continue to be a family.  I hope that we won't have in group fighting and that we can't get over this little intro phase.  Let's all maintain our community.   Please, if you don't have a badge, like me, don't take it personally.  If you do, that doesn't mean you are more special or have contributed more than your poor peers here.  Sure dollar wise that may be true, but many of us have also contributed our time and support as well.  Let's not lose site of that.  Please let's all get along.

Well put.

As a person who doesn't convey empathy/sympathy/etc well, it can't be understated how important are those people who can. Like every group of people who band together for a reason, different talents and contributions are essential to the success of the group - and elevating one over another is counter-productive*.

I too think that the badge create discomfort.

*I don't think that anyone here is engaging in this... but it's easy to see how this might be construed...

[Yuki-jker86]

I don't know where the right place to say this is, so move this if you like...

One of the reoccurring themes for the future of this site is giving it a make over.  I don't spend much time on the other parts of this site, and I don't know how much traffic they get, but as far as the forums are concerned the only visably outdated parts are the banner at the top and the favicon.  As for the rest of it, simply changing to a sans serif font and changing the slightly pixelated background will probably make a world of difference.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I would much rather there be less pressure on getting donations in order to be able to survive and having one or two areas of dated formatting on the site.  Maybe searching for a member with experience who's willing to volunteer would be worthwhile... if I had the knowledge I would gladly volunteer, but as much as I wish I did, I can't pretend that I do.

I don't know what section that kind of thing would belong I and couldn't find any related, I just wanted to put it out there, I am a designer and I am very good at logos and colour balance etc.  If you see this Susan and want anything designed, let me know.

[Ltl89]

No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"

The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn

PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.

That is very true, but you are not taking into account the real implications status markers have on community stability.  It may sound silly, but you have already seen at least one member jump of the site because of this and other's have made judgmental comments to those of us who are unable to donate.  As I have said before, give a 5 kids a ball in a group of 20, you will see that the kids begin to interact differently with one another.  Even in campaigning, we gave small little symbolic rewards to our volunteers who went above and beyond.  As a result a competition emerged and some volunteers began to feel their was a hierarchy within our campaign. In a competitive atmosphere like a political campaign it's fine, but it isn't the greatest idea for a support site.  It is common knowledge that these things do matter and there are years of studies to prove this.  I could care less about these badges,and when I can donate I will refuse to accept one myself, but I do care about how others may interact because of them. I have seen enough commentary from a vocal minority who judged those of us unable to donate and now see some members threatening to jump ship.  It's not about any malice being intended.  It's about the impact these actions will have. 

[bethany]

No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"

The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn

PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.

Yes that is true Devlyn I donated because I wanted to help the cause here. But I don't want those who can't afford to contribute at this time to feel out of place. Had I known there were going to be badges I would have donated anonymous. Next time I'll know unless the badge stays with us forever.

[Sarah Louise]

Susan has done her best to make it clear there are No Second Class members, I don't know what else she can say.

If you can donate, fine, if you can't, fine.  Either way you are all valued members.

We have enough people attacking us in life without us turning on each other.

[Joanna Dark]

I really think the site should consider ads. Well placed ads don't effect a site at all. Heck, you could prolly sell a banner ad at the bottom of the page for wigs that I bet would bring in at least $1,000/month. But two there one for wigs, the other for makeup that covers beard shadow and now you have $2,000/month and you haven't effected the site at all. Or put three, and another for binders. Now you are bringing in $3,000. Put two at the top and then two at the bottom. You could put ads for binders and packers on the FTM forum and makeup and wigs on the MTF forum. Those are money makers right there.

BTW, I like the look of the forums. They are simple and allot users to communicate with ease. You don't have to be a stock holder in Facebook to realize implementing too many changes at once will turn some people off and in the end effect the overall profitability of the site. Right now you could sell X amount of ads for a definite price, but if the amount of traffic drops, those ads will decrease in value.

I just think ads are the answer. I worry the site will lose users over the long term by stratifying the site with badges though that is obviously not the intent. I think most, if not all, current users know there is zero ill intent but what about new users?  They will never know about this debate and only see a user with a gold badge or a silver badge or whatever. They might just think they have to pay to be a member and thus never really get involved. It is quite the conundrum since I do think Susan has to do something to recognize donators.

LTL makes really good points to I'll just say. i can't say it better then she did.

[Heather]

It may be me but I'm not really seeing this as a huge deal. I love this site it has helped me out during this transition period and I plan on once I setup a PayPal account to support the site for all the help I have received from it. I haven't heard anyone say your a bad person if you don't give money. And trust me I'm far from rich and I do have bills to pay but if me paying 10 dollars a month help keeps the site up for everybody it's worth it to me. 

[DriftingCrow]

I don't see the harm in doing an experiment to see how only subscriptions/donations work out. The donation/subscription thing has only been up for a week and already people just automatically write it off. Susan has said ads are not off the table. Give it time, maybe you guys/girls will get the ads you want.


Edit to add:

I just looked at the goal progress so far. In only about a week, we've made 61% of a monthly goal. If August has the same goal amount ($2,000) we're probably more likely to hit the goal with a full thirty days.