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Progesterone as an AA

Started by Joanna Dark, July 30, 2013, 07:52:06 PM

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Joanna Dark

Does anyone use P as their primary anti-androgen? I read that P significantly reduces T levels and since I despise spiro I was thinking about asking my clinic doctor what she thinks about this and if I could possibly go on P and thus take a lower dose of spiro. The other obvious benefits of P are that it may help breast development, specifically the rounding out of the breast and help elongate the areola. I am aware of the link between P and E and increased risk of DVT and I am aware of P and the risk of breast cancer. I will not be on it forever and since I have heard there is a growing movement of a P and E only HRT regimen I thought why not?

What are people's experiences with P. I know this is a controversial subject but I actually am looking for concrete (if circumstantial) experiences. Please keep it civil as I wouldn't want anyone who is on P to not respond. I really want to know because this is something I really want to do and I want to know all I can before I ask. Thanks so much!
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JennX

No. It is a very very weak AA compared to Sprio or Cyprotene Acetate... and progesterone is actually metabolized in to Testosterone in many instances. Also there is a big issue with severe depression as a side effect. I'd only consider it postop and then only if my T level was low, ie < 20ng/dl. Basically, the downside isn't worth the upside.
"If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton
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Joanna Dark

See I read that it knocks down T levels by 95 percent. But, of course, there is the potential for conversion to T but from other people who are on it as their primary AA, they seem to have no complaints. Androcour is prolly the gold standard when it comes to AAs but that isn't available so I don't think about it. I've also heard though that it will actually help depression. It seems impossible to get anyone to agree on anything that P actually does or doesn't do.

As far as breast development, there is this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10632490?dopt=Abstract

It states that "Only in male-to-female transsexuals in whom progestative chemical castration is combined with feminizing estrogen therapy will full acinar and lobular formation occur with hormonally stimulated nuclei and pseudolactational changes."

I'm not tolerating the spiro well and would rather not take it. I wake up and I feel good. I take spiro and then, bleh. Really what I am looking for is a replacement for spiro. The only replacement seems to be progesterone.
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Heather

My doc added progesterone to knock down my testosterone the rest of the way. But I'm still on spiro but I really do think the progesterone has really lowered my testosterone I can feel it and I'm showing all the signs of low testosterone. So yeah it can work but in combination with spiro.  ;)
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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Heather on July 30, 2013, 10:17:27 PM
My doc added progesterone to knock down my testosterone the rest of the way. But I'm still on spiro but I really do think the progesterone has really lowered my testosterone I can feel it and I'm showing all the signs of low testosterone. So yeah it can work but in combination with spiro.  ;)

Thanks Heather! I mean I want to take it but that is one of things I am worried about: will it re-masculinize me?
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Brittany North

My endo also prescribed a moderate dose of micronized P, and mentioned that it should reduce T levels further.  I'm still on spiro (tolerate it fine) as well.  Seems to be working for me, but haven't had my next round of blood tests yet.  I think if you ask 3 different endos, you get 4 different opinions  ;D
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Cindy Stephens

I changed Doctors who put me on injectable Medroxyprogesterone  as my primary AA.  I had been using spiro for 4 or 5 years before that.  I have been on it for 18 months now.  I had a tremendous breast growth spurt with their shapes becoming much rounder.  Accompanied by that nipple sensitivity that signals activity.  My testosterone is down around 5-7 on a scale where 40 is low for a natal woman.  I actually think that my T levels are too low and have had symptoms of low T.  I lengthened the time between injections and have felt a little more vigorous and my memory is better.  I have not experienced ANY symptoms of T poisoning.  No erections and my upper leg hair takes 2 weeks to grow in enough to feel any stubble.  That really pisses my wife off as she hates to shave hers and she has too every week.  I know that many criticize the drug but I don't smoke, and can't take the double pass of pills.  I actually feel that much of the criticism is similar to what organic people and vegetarians give toward the rest of us.  This method may not be for them, but for me it seems to work well.  You might want to read about chemical castration of sex criminals and this is the drug they use on them.  One would think that officials would be hesitant to use a drug that converts to T in this population.  As an aside, If you end up using  it you may want to get it from a compounding pharmacy as a local  pharmacist may think you are a sex fiend rather than transgender.  The one bad thing is the cost-$65/month from stroheckers vrs almost nothing for the spiro.  However, I can finally eat all the heavily potassium laden fresh fruits and veggies I want without worrying about those levels.  This is my experience YMMV.
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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on July 31, 2013, 12:31:53 PM
I changed Doctors who put me on injectable Medroxyprogesterone  as my primary AA.  I had been using spiro for 4 or 5 years before that.  I have been on it for 18 months now.  I had a tremendous breast growth spurt with their shapes becoming much rounder.  Accompanied by that nipple sensitivity that signals activity.  My testosterone is down around 5-7 on a scale where 40 is low for a natal woman.  I actually think that my T levels are too low and have had symptoms of low T.  I lengthened the time between injections and have felt a little more vigorous and my memory is better.  I have not experienced ANY symptoms of T poisoning.  No erections and my upper leg hair takes 2 weeks to grow in enough to feel any stubble.  That really pisses my wife off as she hates to shave hers and she has too every week.  I know that many criticize the drug but I don't smoke, and can't take the double pass of pills.  I actually feel that much of the criticism is similar to what organic people and vegetarians give toward the rest of us.  This method may not be for them, but for me it seems to work well.  You might want to read about chemical castration of sex criminals and this is the drug they use on them.  One would think that officials would be hesitant to use a drug that converts to T in this population.  As an aside, If you end up using  it you may want to get it from a compounding pharmacy as a local  pharmacist may think you are a sex fiend rather than transgender.  The one bad thing is the cost-$65/month from stroheckers vrs almost nothing for the spiro.  However, I can finally eat all the heavily potassium laden fresh fruits and veggies I want without worrying about those levels.  This is my experience YMMV.

This is great to hear! I felt like MPA would be fanastic as an AA after reading all kinds of studies about it and it's effects as an AA and the only thing that gave me pause was that there is so much push back against it in the trans community and I don't know why...if it works for some and they tolerate better then spiro then why not? I mean essentially it is just like androcour except it is even more progestogenic. Plus I read a study comapring users of MPA versus users of high estrogen therpay in regards to MTF breast growth and the MPA users all had breast tissue that is indistinguishable from genetic females whereas the non-MPA group had substanitally less growth and you could tell the difference between them and GGs.

Plus I read P actually compliments E and helps overall feminization and not just breast growth. It is not androgenic from what I can tell though it might act on some tissues but that is just because it attaches to androgen receptors. This is all in natal females. I also think that E would cancel out any T effects but MPA essenitally nukes T better then anything except androcour. Also, my endo told me of the people she saw who self-medded she could always tell who used androcour because their feminization was much better. However, I'm not knocking not using P and think it is great for most it is just I do not tolerate it well and it is not sufficiently knocking down my T and I notice androgenic effects from time to time when my dose gets upped. I still want to take some spiro I just want to take very little of it and hope something like MPA or microgest will be the primary. I do think spiro is great for acne and just want my T levels down to a normal female level and then the spiro will work like it would in a GG.

I mean I have had great feminization and passed at 73 days and I am on the low normal sde of E and normal though lowish dose of spiro. The other thing about spiro is it is an androgenic steroid it is not a real AA like MPA and CPA. Both of which are very similar. I do not know why MPA is not used more. From everyone I heard about who takes it they have had no ill effects. None. And I have read a lot about it. I just want to give some form of P a trial run along with a lower dose of spiro and see what happens. My E will be higher soon so I'm hoping now that I am apporaching six months of HRT my progress will go into overdrive. I already barely pass as a man and I don't want to pass as a man at all...ever.

Also, please anyone feel free to comment even if you may have something more negative to say now as I have gotten the info I wanted. I welcome all opinions.

Also, JennX, I really value your opinion very highly so what you said does give me pause. Have you known anyone who took it. I know you know your stuff but I was wondering if you knew anyone who had something bad occur. If not, I'm not questioning your info, you are prolly one of the most knowledgable on this board about HRT. You must be a researcher in a Uni or something. That's what I want to be. Well at least I want to work in a Uni that's what my mom thinks I should do as she is worried about my future and knows I will fit in there and even being MTF prolly won't effect it too much.
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JessicaH

Please keep in mind that there is a big difference between MPA (provera) which is a progestin and not progesterone. Micronized P (Prometrium) is true progesterone and has all the good benefits that we seek without most of the bad effects. Every study that shows P is bad, has been done with MPA. MPA is a synthetic chemical and not the same as progesterone although its close.

Think about all the designer street drugs that are so chemically close to street drugs that are illegal. The chemist change the molecular structure just a tiny bit so that it has most of the side effects of the illegal drug but its technically a different drug and therefore not illegal.  With that said, think of all the different effects that the designer drugs have after changing the chemical structure just a tiny bit!  Ecstasy (MDMA?) is very close to methamphetamine and has a definite stimulate effect but it also has a very differ effect on the user.

Personally, I wouldn't put MPA in my body but I like having the Micronized P for 14 out of a 28 day cycle. It's not necessary to have it in our systems all the time and natal women only have significant levels of it for about 14 days of their cycles and it helps modulate some of the negative effects of E and refreshes the E receptors keeping them fresh.
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Cindy Stephens

Prometrium Label - Accessdata FDA
www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/.../019781s013lbl.pdf

I would never suggest some to or not to take a drug, I'm not a doctor.  However, the above reference is the black box warnign for Merk's prometrium product.  I find it interesting that they reference info for progestins rather than the progesterone.  Because the studies simply haven't been done using progesterone exclusively.  They don't sell enough of it.  The studies that have been done are small, and focused very few specific uses that it is prescribed for.  I chose to believe the fda and manufacturers over the holistic, natural pathic, quasi scientific, Suzanna Summers catechism.   I don't buy organic foods either.   Too some, that makes sense.  However, Arsenic is totally "natural" and I wouldn't ingest that either.  I just don't believe that the "real" double blind studies support the contention that prometrium is somehow better.  The studies are pretty good that you shouldn't use either one with tobacco or super long term.  Knowledge is power, read.   
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Joanna Dark

Yeah I'm not convinced of the difference between progestin and "natural" progesterone. I think it is a whole lot like the organic v. non-organic debate. There hasn't been enough studies. I did find this from a trans guy's blog on depo-provera where he talks about how is body feminized big time after taking depo. Not just boobs but also his face and hips and butt. he said it was incredibly feminizing. A trans woman with adequate E should expect a similar effect. And from what I hear they get it.

http://cnlester.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/how-i-descended-into-the-dreaded-abyss-of-depo-provera-and-lived-to-tell-the-tale-a-cautionary-story/

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JessicaH

#11
Progesterone is the natural (as in the one that our body makes) hormone that is made inside a woman's body in the second half of her cycle. Prometrium (Micronized P) is the EXACT chemical structure of the hormone made in the human body. True, it has been marketed and "branded" as "bio-identical" but al that beans is that is biologically the EXACT hormone in our body.

As you can see, they are two DIFFERENT chemical structures.

Medroxyprogesterone Acetate (MPA, Provera)
C24H34O4
Molecular Weight 386.53



Progesterone (Prometrium, Micronized Progesterone)
C21H30O2
Mmolecular Weight of 314.47


If read the study, you can see that there are different side effects to the two drugs.

Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7807658

JAMA. 1995 Jan 18;273(3):199-208.
Effects of estrogen or estrogen/progestin regimens on heart disease risk factors in postmenopausal women. The Postmenopausal Estrogen/Progestin Interventions (PEPI) Trial. The Writing Group for the PEPI Trial.
[No authors listed]
Erratum in

    JAMA 1995 Dec 6;274(21):1676.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

To assess pairwise differences between placebo, unopposed estrogen, and each of three estrogen/progestin regimens on selected heart disease risk factors in healthy postmenopausal women.
DESIGN:

A 3-year, multicenter, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.
PARTICIPANTS:

A total of 875 healthy postmenopausal women aged 45 to 64 years who had no known contraindication to hormone therapy.
INTERVENTION:

Participants were randomly assigned in equal numbers to the following groups: (1) placebo; (2) conjugated equine estrogen (CEE), 0.625 mg/d; (3) CEE, 0.625 mg/d plus cyclic medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA), 10 mg/d for 12 d/mo; (4) CEE, 0.625 mg/d plus consecutive MPA, 2.5 mg/d; or (5) CEE, 0.625 mg/d plus cyclic micronized progesterone (MP), 200 mg/d for 12 d/mo. PRIMARY ENDPOINTS: Four endpoints were chosen to represent four biological systems related to the risk of cardiovascular disease: (1) high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), (2) systolic blood pressure, (3) serum insulin, and (4) fibrinogen.
ANALYSIS:

Analyses presented are by intention to treat. P values for primary endpoints are adjusted for multiple comparisons; 95% confidence intervals around estimated effects were calculated without this adjustment.
RESULTS:

Mean changes in HDL-C segregated treatment regimens into three statistically distinct groups: (1) placebo (decrease of 0.03 mmol/L [1.2 mg/dL]); (2) MPA regimens (increases of 0.03 to 0.04 mmol/L [1.2 to 1.6 mg/dL]); and (3) CEE with cyclic MP (increase of 0.11 mmol/L [4.1 mg/dL]) and CEE alone (increase of 0.14 mmol/L [5.6 mg/dL]). Active treatments decreased mean low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (0.37 to 0.46 mmol/L [14.5 to 17.7 mg/dL]) and increased mean triglyceride (0.13 to 0.15 mmol/L [11.4 to 13.7 mg/dL]) compared with placebo. Placebo was associated with a significantly greater increase in mean fibrinogen than any active treatment (0.10 g/L compared with -0.02 to 0.06 g/L); differences among active treatments were not significant. Systolic blood pressure increased and postchallenge insulin levels decreased during the trial, but neither varied significantly by treatment assignment. Compared with other active treatments, unopposed estrogen was associated with a significantly increased risk of adenomatous or atypical hyperplasia (34% vs 1%) and of hysterectomy (6% vs 1%). No other adverse effect differed by treatment assignment or hysterectomy status.
CONCLUSIONS:

Estrogen alone or in combination with a progestin improves lipoproteins and lowers fibrinogen levels without detectable effects on postchallenge insulin or blood pressure. Unopposed estrogen is the optimal regimen for elevation of HDL-C, but the high rate of endometrial hyperplasia restricts use to women without a uterus. In women with a uterus, CEE with cyclic MP has the most favorable effect on HDL-C and no excess risk of endometrial hyperplasia.
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