We went to a gayborhood cafe yesterday

[Ms Bev]

I had an appointment with my therapist yesterday (who is wondering just why I'm coming; says I'm fully transitioned, healthy outlook, great family and relationship, yada yada.....), and stopped with Marcy at a local cafe in the gay-friendly neighborhood.  It was neato!  Jazz music background, good food, decent prices.  It's a popular place, and at every table, were completely relaxed couples and groups of gays, lesbians, transsexuals.  Some were casual, others very professional, in business luncheon mode.
What a treat!  We'll be back.

Bev

[LostInTime]

Very cool. sounds like it was a nice outing.

[Laura Eva B]

Sounds really cool Bev  !

But personally I avoid gay venues (bars, clubs, cafes) even if the crowd is mixed, as its the one kind of place where I'm likely to get "read" .... as your motives for being there are going to be questioned by all the other "people watchers", and gays are just so much more perceptive ....

And I feel sooo uncomfortable if I think I'm being identified as a TS woman.

Laura x

[Maud]

It's possible to blend as a "->-bleeped-<- hag" if you care to, tbh though i generally just get pegged for a dyke.

[Ms Bev]

As I said, it was a mixed crowd.  I don't think I was read by anyone, unless they read me as lesbian.  Marcy and I didn't spend time looking around, as we are usually immersed in each other, so yeah, I guess they looked at us as a lesbian couple.  All we did for that to happen is hold hands, walk arm in arm, and pretty much be a self-absorbed obvious couple.  Go figure.

Bev

[SarahFaceDoom]

Sounds really cool Bev  !

But personally I avoid gay venues (bars, clubs, cafes) even if the crowd is mixed, as its the one kind of place where I'm likely to get "read" .... as your motives for being there are going to be questioned by all the other "people watchers", and gays are just so much more perceptive ....

And I feel sooo uncomfortable if I think I'm being identified as a TS woman.

Laura x

On the other hand, if you are read, people are more likely to be fine with it, than if you were somewhere else.  And plus, if like Bev you're a lesbian, then it also gives you a place where you can hang out with your lover in public and not have to worry about incurring anyone's wrath.

[Maud]

On the other hand, if you are read, people are more likely to be fine with it, than if you were somewhere else.  And plus, if like Bev you're a lesbian, then it also gives you a place where you can hang out with your lover in public and not have to worry about incurring anyone's wrath.

tbh it think lgbt people are often more annoying, they seem to think it's ok to walk up to you and ask you annoying questions, that hasn't happened in a long while though.

yay for 100% passing.

[Ms Bev]

I'm always sorry for any of us, including myself, who have had any bad experience in public places, but when I'm in a place I like, and feel totally at home, and feel assured that I'm no one's focus of attention, I consider it a good, and affirming experience, one that gives a glimmer of hope for us all in the future.  I wish we could all have more positive than negative experiences.
btw...aren't we lgbt people?



Bev,,,
Queen of the, Comma

[Maud]

aren't we lgbt people?

In the strictest sense of the acronym yes, but it's akin to saying any guy who once kissed a guy is LGBT, I was an oddball in society and now I've transitioned i'm just a regular girl.

I don't consider myself an "lgbt person" just a person who happens to be T and thus is covered by the acronym.

[SarahFaceDoom]

btw...aren't we lgbt people?

I am an L and a T!  I think that's like getting a triple word score.  But yeah, some people don't want anything to do with lgbt.  Which I think is part of what the whole definition debate that's going on right now is about.

I wonder if LGBT dropped the T, if they'd still allow us to be a part of the movement covered under the other letters if we are?

[Laura Eva B]

Well I'm not lesbian, bisexual, or gay .....

Everything we've achieved in the UK as TS women and guys (anti-discriminatory legislation, birth certificate change after 2 years proven RLE even if you're still on a waiting list for NHS surgery ... and so an open door to marriage in a proper and legal hetrosexual sense ... not a "civil partnership" that gay's are offered) ... none of it has been won by any effort or help of the LBG movement ... TS women and guys have fought and won through their own efforts and own campaigning and lobbying groups.

Putting the "T" into LBGT is the worst thing that ever happened to TS girls and guys as it puts us in a ghetto of "seperateness" whereas I just want to live as an unremarkable member of "normal" (guess even "suburban") society !

Just why would I want to align myself to LBG when there isn't an ounce of cross identification there .... not being either lesbian, gay or bi .... and as someone who wants to live my (however unconventional) life as the heterosexual woman that I am, and that most people see me as ?

Laura x

[Ms Bev]

Well I'm not lesbian, bisexual, or gay .....

.... and as someone who wants to live my (however unconventional) life as the heterosexual woman that I am
Laura x

Sorry, Laura.  I didn't mean to be so all-encompassing.  Of course there are fully transitioned, heterosexual women, and men who would not wish to identify with lgbt.  On the other hand, some who have reached that stage, were considerably ts, tg, whatever you wish to call it, at one time in their lives.  We all have roots in a movement that tries very hard to promote equality for us all, many of whom are in active transition, and want nothing more than to have a life like yours.  Kind of like an alumnus some may wish to support after "graduation".
..............just a thought.

Bev

[Laura Eva B]

Bev,

There's a strong feeling, certainly among some UK TS, that by lumping ourselves in with an LBG, or even a TV/TG grouping, who do not generally seek therapy, medication, or surgery, we diminish our ability to obtain these things through the funded National Health Service ....

.... indeed LBG is usually seen as an alternative lifestyle grouping (but as is well understood nowadays not a lifestyle "choice"), generally well adjusted, happy and proud, having won all they need in terms of UK legislature.  Not the case with TS women seeking basic medical / psychiatric care and treatment.  LBG's have no interest in fighting for specifically TS causes.

Lets be TS first, and group as TS, and LBG only if its appropriate for us ?

Laura x

[SarahFaceDoom]

Bev,

There's a strong feeling, certainly among some UK TS, that by lumping ourselves in with an LBG, or even a TV/TG grouping, who do not generally seek therapy, medication, or surgery, we diminish our ability to obtain these things through the funded National Health Service ....

.... indeed LBG is usually seen as an alternative lifestyle grouping (but as is well understood nowadays not a lifestyle "choice"), generally well adjusted, happy and proud, having won all they need in terms of UK legislature.  Not the case with TS women seeking basic medical / psychiatric care and treatment.  LBG's have no interest in fighting for specifically TS causes.

Lets be TS first, and group as TS, and LBG only if its appropriate for us ?

Laura x

Of course in the US the attitude is flipped with a lot of people in LGB not wanting the T, because they feel it hampers their ability to make strong inroads on gay marriage.  It's interesting the cultural differences, because I think here in the US LGB is more accepted than T, whereas in the UK it sounds like the exact opposite.

[Ms Bev]

I think here in the US LGB is more accepted than T, whereas in the UK it sounds like the exact opposite.

Certainly, in the US, ts , tg, is considered stranger than strange.  My life would be socially easier if I were lbg, but my doc and therapist say I'm classical ts.  At least I'm classical.  On the other hand, most lesbians seem to be perfectly accepting of me.  Most.  A few will have nothing to do with me.  I think they view me as a modified male, trespassing on their turf.

Bev

[Aurelia]

It's interesting the cultural differences, because I think here in the US LGB is more accepted than T, whereas in the UK it sounds like the exact opposite.

Believe me, this isn't the case. LGB, especially bisexuals, are accepted almost universally. Even if you don't like it, you condone it.
With TS, however, people see it as Men wanting to be Women (or vice versa) and simply consider that wrong on some level.
I, on the other hand, have the outlook that I'm simply a girl who doesn't want to be a boy.

[SarahFaceDoom]

It's interesting the cultural differences, because I think here in the US LGB is more accepted than T, whereas in the UK it sounds like the exact opposite.

Believe me, this isn't the case. LGB, especially bisexuals, are accepted almost universally. Even if you don't like it, you condone it.
With TS, however, people see it as Men wanting to be Women (or vice versa) and simply consider that wrong on some level.
I, on the other hand, have the outlook that I'm simply a girl who doesn't want to be a boy.

I don't understand your post.  Are you from the UK or the US?
In the US at least, I think bisexualism isn't nearly as accepted.  Straight people think you are too queer to put up with, and queer people think you are too straight.  Everyone wants you to make up your mind.  My sister is bisexual, and whenever she is dating either a guy or a female, she has to basically pretend that she's either straight or a lesbian.  Everyone has their own pressures to deal with.

I think in many respects Bisexual people and Trans people are probably the black sheep of LGBT in the US.  And it would be nice if we could work together more often.

[Laura Eva B]

Sarah, re-read my posts, I'm not for one moment suggesting that TS is more accepted than gay in the UK .... just saying that by lumping ourselves with LGBs who have no need for any medical treatment, support, or surgery, we hamper our own ability to fight for and get state funded treatment as our basic right.

Tendency for the medical profession and the public will be to dismiss us as repressed gays (drag queens no less) if we insist on holding onto the coat tails of that movement.

Yes in the UK birth certificate change is now a formality, and hence so too becomes legal marriage, adoption, whatever.  We have full protection in the workplace as well.  This was won by TS exclusive campaigning and lobbying (Press for Change - PFC), not LBGT work.

But gays have won anti-discrimination in "supplies and services" - shopkeepers, bars, hotels, etc. having no right to refuse service on grouns of sexuallity, and TS have been pointedly excluded for the time being on the strength of the Anglican Bishops who so disgracefully occupy unelected seats in our upper parliamentary chamber - and did the LBG campaigners make a fuss about it "All for one, one for all ...", well guess !

Everything we've achieved in the UK as TS women and guys (anti-discriminatory legislation, birth certificate change after 2 years proven RLE even if you're still on a waiting list for NHS surgery ... and so an open door to marriage in a proper and legal hetrosexual sense ... not a "civil partnership" that gay's are offered) ... none of it has been won by any effort or help of the LBG movement ... TS women and guys have fought and won through their own efforts and own campaigning and lobbying groups.

Putting the "T" into LBGT is the worst thing that ever happened to TS girls and guys as it puts us in a ghetto of "seperateness" whereas I just want to live as an unremarkable member of "normal" (guess even "suburban") society !
Laura x   

There's a strong feeling, certainly among some UK TS, that by lumping ourselves in with an LBG, or even a TV/TG grouping, who do not generally seek therapy, medication, or surgery, we diminish our ability to obtain these things through the funded National Health Service ....
.... indeed LBG is usually seen as an alternative lifestyle grouping (but as is well understood nowadays not a lifestyle "choice"), generally well adjusted, happy and proud, having won all they need in terms of UK legislature.  Not the case with TS women seeking basic medical / psychiatric care and treatment.

Laura x