Avoiding outting others

[Nygeel]

I have a question based on something that happened a few days ago. I was out with some acquaintances and we were  at a bar. I knew the bartender since we were teens, and knew he was trans. My acquaintance asked me if he (the bartender) was trans. I told her it's not my place to disclose if he is or isn't. She kept pestering me about it, asked him about his tattoos (she pointed out his transgender related tattoo) and it just all seemed really inappropriate to me. I felt uncomfortable because she kept talking about trans people, and I wasn't all that interested in discussing my experiences as a trans person. I also kept trying to change the topic to basically "anything else."

In a situation like this, where you have somebody who wants to know another person's trans status and just keeps bringing it up, what do you do? Are there better ways to go about responding than what I did?

[wheat thins are delicious]

"It's not my place to discuss this" and walk away.

[insideontheoutside]

I always wonder why people do things like that – press issues and keep trying to talk about something. Like they can't understand a simple statement like, "It's not my place to disclose ...".

If it were me, and she kept pestering after I'd already given what I thought was a clear statement that I would not discuss it, I'd probably same something like, "You do know it's rude and inappropriate to keep asking questions like this about someone's gender."

[King Malachite]

I think you handled the situation nicely.  I would just say it really doesn't matter.

[StellaB]

I would ask them point blank, 'What's it to you?' But then again, maybe not. Maybe it would be a signal for the end of the conversation and the meeting and I would make my excuses and leave.

I don't have time for anyone who wants to discuss something that's so personal and intimate to another person with me (unless of course it's connected to a relationship issue which directly involves them). I find it's a social faux pas on the same level as farting openly or belching. Usually the intention or motivation behind it isn't pleasant and I do what I can to eliminate such people from my life as quickly as possible.

[suzifrommd]

Gonna buck the trend here.

Nigeel, I think you handled it fine. But I don't think you were obligated to keep this guy's identity secret.

I'd say it depends on the friendship you have with both and how you found out he was trans.

If you found it out from a support group group or some place where confidential information was shared, or if he told you in private, then you are ethically bound to keep his confidence.

If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally, he told you in public, you saw his youtube video, or you knew him before his transition, etc., then you have no obligation to keep his secret. You're also not obligated to judge your acquaintance's motives for asking. I try not to keep secrets from my close friends unless I've agreed not to tell.

As someone who's often socially clueless, I depend on my friends to help me navigate the social landscape. And I have unfortunately felt the painful sting of being the only one who didn't know something because I was a bit of a social outcast and had no one close enough to me to tell me. Having friends tell me things that might be common knowledge to some others has helped me on numerous occasions. I try to return the favor when I can.

There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people. It's just not my responsibilities to keep their secret unless it was told to me in confidence. (I consider a friend telling me something in private, a confidence, whether or not I'm asked not to tell).

I know we'd like people not to out us, but that isn't an overarching principal. Friendship, trust, and confidences figure into it as well.

OK, go ahead and flame me...

[wheat thins are delicious]

Gonna buck the trend here.

Nigeel, I think you handled it fine. But I don't think you were obligated to keep this guy's identity secret.

I'd say it depends on the friendship you have with both and how you found out he was trans.

If you found it out from a support group group or some place where confidential information was shared, or if he told you in private, then you are ethically bound to keep his confidence.

If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally, he told you in public, you saw his youtube video, or you knew him before his transition, etc., then you have no obligation to keep his secret. You're also not obligated to judge your acquaintance's motives for asking. I try not to keep secrets from my close friends unless I've agreed not to tell.

As someone who's often socially clueless, I depend on my friends to help me navigate the social landscape. And I have unfortunately felt the painful sting of being the only one who didn't know something because I was a bit of a social outcast and had no one close enough to me to tell me. Having friends tell me things that might be common knowledge to some others has helped me on numerous occasions. I try to return the favor when I can.

There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people. It's just not my responsibilities to keep their secret unless it was told to me in confidence. (I consider a friend telling me something in private, a confidence, whether or not I'm asked not to tell).

I know we'd like people not to out us, but that isn't an overarching principal. Friendship, trust, and confidences figure into it as well.

OK, go ahead and flame me...

If someone else told you his status, that doesn't mean you should do the same, it's rude and uncalled for.  "Clocking someone" isn't proof, because you can never actually know unless that person tells you that they are indeed trans, you are just making an assumption.  Being at a trans rally isn't proof because there are allies.  Even if he tells you specifically, it's not your place to out him unless he gives permission to be outed, same goes for youtube videos.  Even if you "knew him before transition" that still doesn't give anyone the right to out him.  Basically no outing is appropriate unless given permission by the person. 

Nygeel is well within his rights to judge the acquaintance's motives.  There is no need to know if someone is trans or not, besides the obvious gossip factor. 

[Beth Andrea]

I always wonder why people do things like that – press issues and keep trying to talk about something. Like they can't understand a simple statement like, "It's not my place to disclose ...".

If it were me, and she kept pestering after I'd already given what I thought was a clear statement that I would not discuss it, I'd probably same something like, "You do know it's rude and inappropriate to keep asking questions like this about someone's gender."

This.  Or perhaps, say first, "Why don't you ask him (her)?" Then say it's rude...and the evening ends right there.

[Nygeel]

I knew this guy before he transitioned, and he knew me before I transitioned. I think he's trying to live his life fairly stealth, and I really don't know him very well. He has been on testosterone for maybe 8 years or so, and has had top surgery so it's not like he looks ambiguous or is early in transition (physically).

[AdamMLP]

I probably wouldn't have said that, because I'd be paranoid that they'd read into it and realise that I'd have probably said, "What, no?" if they were cis.  If they didn't know that I'd known them for a long time I'd have probably just tried to play it cool and tell them that I didn't know, any why didn't they ask them, but make it perfectly clear that it's not an okay question through my mannerisms.

[Edge]

I think you handled it fine. One could also ask if it matters.

[Natkat]

I think you handle it good, im very bad at those kind of situations I still stugles with one of my ftms who gave birth to a kid, and each time I say he has a kid people are like.. "but there gay? so did they adopt?" "so what surrogate? is that legal there?" "he had sex with a girl? didnt you say he was gay"

[LordKAT]

I agree with Alexander.  Saying you don't know or just who cares may be fine but anything else ambiguous says yes they are trans, even if you told them it was rude or to ask the person themselves.

[JillSter]

It depends on the person and how they present themself.

If I dont know, I'd just lie.

"No, those aren't trans tats. You're blind. STFU. Drink your beer."

You'll be forgiven.

[Simon]

There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people.

Congrats, that has to be one of the crappiest statements I've read all year. I live my life by a few rules and one of them is, "If I wouldn't want it done to me I won't do it to someone else". Also, remember that if someone will do it with you they will do it to you. Keep gossiping, it'll bite you in the rump eventually.

Back to the OP. Since you knew the guy I probably would have asked to speak with him outside when he got a break. Let him make the call if he was comfortable with divulging to her. In the meantime I would have changed the subject as many times as it took to get her to take a hint. If she persisted I would have went to the bathroom then came back and said I got a text and had to go.

[DriftingCrow]

I probably wouldn't have said that, because I'd be paranoid that they'd read into it and realise that I'd have probably said, "What, no?" if they were cis.  If they didn't know that I'd known them for a long time I'd have probably just tried to play it cool and tell them that I didn't know, any why didn't they ask them, but make it perfectly clear that it's not an okay question through my mannerisms.

I agree with Alex, to me something like "I am not in the position to disclose" means "Yes, he's trans". I would've just said "I am not sure" and if she pointed out the trans tattoos and I would've just said something like "hmm... maybe he is, but that doesn't really mean anything."

Though I guess it's different if your friend knew that you knew the bartender since you were both teens, then your response is appropriate, though if I was her, I'd still take the "I am not in a position to disclose" statement as yes. It's still basically outing IMO, but there's really no way to get around it.

[Nygeel]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing with the statement "it's not my position to disclose." I think I might say "why does it matter?" instead.

Awhile back when I was in college my professor was a trans man. I knew because he was also the foster parent of somebody I was friends with. Before class the students would talk about how there was a transgender prof, asked each other about what he looked like "before" and what his name must've been. It pissed me off. One of the young women in the class said "I wonder what it looks like" referring to his crotch. I responded (with much more vulgar language) "why? Do you want to have sex with him?" which pretty much stopped the conversation for that day.

I think I might use that one again next time somebody asks me about anybody's trans status. Heck, if people ask me what's in my pants I'll start saying "why, do you want to get in them?" Even though it won't be a serious tone, people will assume I'm partially serious and most likely will give the "icks."

[Joanna Dark]

I think I might use that one again next time somebody asks me about anybody's trans status. Heck, if people ask me what's in my pants I'll start saying "why, do you want to get in them?" Even though it won't be a serious tone, people will assume I'm partially serious and most likely will give the "icks."

That's a good idea. You'll want to stop the convo in its tracks. I would never, ever,  never (did I say never) disclose someone's trans status to a stranger whether he had a tattoo or not. It's never okay.

[Arch]

If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally,

These things don't mean anything. The first one is hearsay, the second isn't always accurate, and lots of non-trans people go to trans rallies. And if someone tells me confidentially, I'll keep the secret.

Considering that many of us face discrimination, violence, and even death when our history becomes known, I feel that it is always best to keep one's counsel unless one is explicitly told by the party in question that it is always okay to disclose his or her status.

What if a couple of transphobic individuals are sitting nearby and happen to overhear? Not cool.

[Arch]

Regarding the OP, I've actually been in a similar experience myself, but the questioner was not persistent. My response was, "Why don't you ask HIM?" Nowadays, I would add that asking is the only way to be sure, unless the person in question likes to mess with people's heads.

Answering a rude question without telling a lie yourself is a good skill to have in many situations and is worthwhile practicing.