Do I Look, or Could I Pass, as Female?

[Silvermist]

What I love about this thread is that it's a place that is specifically designed for anyone to help herself/himself answer the question of how she/he looks as a woman; it's an invaluable resource indeed

[Danielle Emmalee]

and it'd be nice if that's all it was, but apparently it's also a discussion group on who is and is not a transsexual.  And since it is in the MTF transsexual section of the website, it gives the wrong impression to some people who don't understand why anyone who is not transsexual would be posting in here.

[RavenMoon]

The term "transsexual" was coined to describe individuals who either wished to, or actually were, undergoing body modification procedures such as HRT. On that basis, there was no such thing as a transsexual before the technologies and medicines became available.

I agree with you, but what I pointed out last night, but then it was deleted, was that the term was transexual was around long before (1923) there was a term "transgender." When I was a kid, I always heard "transsexual." The term "transgender" wasn't around until after 1965. So it's a fairly new.

I prefer the term "transgender" to describe myself, even though I realize that "transsexual" might be more apropos since I plan on altering my body.

Wikipedia says:

Writing for health professionals in the second edition of his reference work Sexual Hygiene and Pathology in 1965, psychiatrist John F. Oliven of Columbia University used the lexical compound trans+gender in the Transexualism section of "Primary Transvestism," noting "'->-bleeped-<-' is what is meant, because sexuality is not a major factor in primary transvestism." Crossdressing pioneer Virginia Charles Prince used the compound in the December 1969 issue of Transvestia, a national magazine for cross dressers founded by Prince. In the mid-1970s both trans-gender and trans people were in use as umbrella terms. 'Transgenderist' was used to describe people who wanted to live cross-gender without sex reassignment surgery.] By 1976, transgenderist was abbreviated as TG in educational materials.
In 1979, Christine Jorgensen publicly rejected transsexual and instead identified herself in newsprint as a trans-gender saying, "gender doesn't have to do with bed partners, it has to do with identity." By 1984, the concept of a "transgender community" had developed, in which transgender was used as an umbrella term. In 1985, Richard Elkins established the "Trans-Gender Archive" at the University of Ulster. By 1992, the International Conference on Transgender Law and Employment Policy defined transgender as an expansive umbrella term including "transsexuals, transgenderists, cross dressers" and anyone transitioning.

Notice that he also used the term "Transvestism" and was talking about cross dressing. He used "gender" because sexual orientation is not the same as gender identity.

Language changes all the time. The term "Gender Identity Disorder" was replaced with "Gender Dysphoria" in 2010. But they are still often used interchangeably.

[Robin Mack]

OK, I am *not* a moderator, but I'm going to jump in here and say that there are people who post here because it is *VERY* important to them to know if they have a chance of transitioning successfully.

While you all know I love a good debate, could we move the debate to another forum and concentrate on the needs of the people beginning their transition who desperately want advice about their appearance.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I've seen a couple of posts get completely buried now under this discussion.  It  is a great discussion, it is important, but I think it deserves its own thread.

*hug*

[RavenMoon]

OK, I am *not* a moderator, but I'm going to jump in here and say that there are people who post here because it is *VERY* important to them to know if they have a chance of transitioning successfully.

While you all know I love a good debate, could we move the debate to another forum and concentrate on the needs of the people beginning their transition who desperately want advice about their appearance.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I've seen a couple of posts get completely buried now under this discussion.  It  is a great discussion, it is important, but I think it deserves its own thread.

*hug*

I agree, and I'm not taking about the origins of those terms anymore, but I will join in on the discussion about our lovely members' appearance.

We are all here for pretty much the same reasons.

[MadeleineG]

OK, I am *not* a moderator, but I'm going to jump in here and say that there are people who post here because it is *VERY* important to them to know if they have a chance of transitioning successfully.

While you all know I love a good debate, could we move the debate to another forum and concentrate on the needs of the people beginning their transition who desperately want advice about their appearance.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I've seen a couple of posts get completely buried now under this discussion.  It  is a great discussion, it is important, but I think it deserves its own thread.

*hug*

Thanks Robin. I don't want to sound cloying, but I was beginning to think I'd picked a terrible time to post my pics. I really appreciate the feedback people have given me, but can't help but think that my pics have been a little overwhelmed by the ongoing politics.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,146688.msg1279015.html#msg1279015

[Byron]

This is me almost 5 months on HRT - still seeing a man in the mirror 

@ Mattie: I see very little masculinity in your face.  HRT should continue to soften your features, and I'm sure you don't have much to worry about in the long run.  Very pretty!

[Sammy]

Byron, funny, but just today I recalled You for some reason (totally unknown to me) and I was wondering where did You go .

[Lexi Belle]

This is me almost 5 months on HRT - still seeing a man in the mirror 

I'd also like to mention you have absolutely gorgeous hair.  If it wasn't so frizzy. xP

[RavenMoon]

I'd also like to mention you have absolutely gorgeous hair.  If it wasn't so frizzy. xP

Yes, great hair!

I suffer from the frizzes too.  Her's doesn't look so frizzy to me.

[Lexi Belle]

Yes, great hair!

I suffer from the frizzes too.  Her's doesn't look so frizzy to me.

You can see it by the roots, I used to get those all the time.  They've calmed down a lot lately. I baby my hair nowadays.

[Cassie 4 Ever!!!]

Ok, this is me after 5 months of HRT. This is with my work shirt which is pretty gender neutral. I have no wig, no make up, nothing on really except I have a push up bra on, but no padding inside it.

Would I pass as female now?? I pulled my shirt behind me to tighten it so that you could see my body shape.

[Carrie Liz]

Okay, seriously, what's going on with the hate here? Why are we suddenly getting all defensive about who belongs on what forum? This is supposed to be an inclusive community that includes everyone under the transgender umbrella... cross-dressers, androgynes, fluid, bigender, genderqueer, everyone. Not just medically-transitioning classic Harry Benjamin transsexuals. I've never seen anyone get on Barbie's case for posting in the MtF transsexual forum even though she's not medically transitioning. Why are you treating anyone else any differently? If you ask me, anyone who wants to know how they can appear more female, regardless of medical status, has a right to post here. Let's be inclusive rather than being exclusive, shall we?

[Sammy]

wow.....it just never ends...

Tis' the third round if I am not mistaken!!!



Besides, I think Kelsie was just a collateral damage, stepping into discussion and having no idea about its origins. Whatever.

[DriftingCrow]

Ok, this is me after 5 months of HRT. This is with my work shirt which is pretty gender neutral. I have no wig, no make up, nothing on really except I have a push up bra on, but no padding inside it.

Would I pass as female now?? I pulled my shirt behind me to tighten it so that you could see my body shape.

You look amazing, to me you pass.

[Bardoux]

Ok, this is me after 5 months of HRT. This is with my work shirt which is pretty gender neutral. I have no wig, no make up, nothing on really except I have a push up bra on, but no padding inside it.

Would I pass as female now?? I pulled my shirt behind me to tighten it so that you could see my body shape.

Indeed you pass and look lovely! Minor knit picking here, but your chin is ever so slightly broad. Still wouldn't think you was anything other than a pretty woman 

[Natalia]

If I may,

I think that almost all the tips and advices that are given for MTF transexuals can be of good use for people that are not transitioning yet, but want to get a more feminine look.

It may be not the right forum, but I don't see any problem in helping someone with good tips and a sincere opinion, even if the person is not a MTF.

I think that people on this topic are more interested about knowing what can be changed due to HRT and FFS, but Things like plucking your eyebrows, getting a feminine haircut, using a good make-up...they are all very useful tips for anyone that wants to get a feminine look.

A big part of passing as a female will only be achieved after HRT and perhaps FFS. HRT alone will soften facial features, change sligthly the format of your face and eyes, give you a better and whiter skin and FFS will turn the more prominent male features of your face into female shapes.

But you only need to be aware that without HRT and FFS you may not pass as a female. Only a very few people can do that.

[Shana A]

Susan's is an inclusive site. How someone might identify; MTF, crossdresser, androgyne, genderqueer, etc., all are allowed to post in this topic.

Reminder of Rule 10


10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

[Nero]

What Shana said.
The title of the thread is simply - "Re: Do I Look, or Could I Pass, as Female?" with nothing mentioned about the poster's status. Obviously crossdressers often have an interest in looking or passing as female. It may be in the mtf forum, but that's just for simplicity. Everyone is welcome to post in any forum they have access to on the site.