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Stereotypes and transitioning, aka: Be a man! * Ladies first!

Started by Catalina, August 15, 2013, 05:35:32 AM

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Catalina

I am sure that we have been subject to those catchy little gendered phrases that, pre-transitioning, may have driven us bonkers.

Like, "Be a man," or "Boys will be boys." or "Man up!"

Or even the other side, "Ladies don't eat in the street." "Ladies first!"

These are all stereotypes of course, and all stereotypes are based on a partial truth, or a rather flimsy observation. Nevertheless, they did bother me for the longest time when I was pre-hormones. Since then, those same stereotypes and other 'affirmations' just do not bother me as much anymore.

Despite our calls for gender equality, men still seem to like opening doors for women to somehow prove an invisible code of honour or chivalry. I feel more at home when my mother started giving me facial products, purses, and other little gifts of charity, or my father not really convinced of my success in more male oriented jobs such as security or construction, lol.

Prior to this, my mother expected me to follow masculine behaviours and my father trying to convince me so he could give me a punching bag and somehow reconnect with his boxing past. XD So glad they're doing it right this time.

All of a sudden, those 'stereotypes' aren't so bad for me. After all, I do nag, I still do crave chocolate at the most random intervals and crave food during mood swings. And yet despite being adverse to the whole plethora of stereotypes, I really don't mind them anymore as a woman.
"Live fully, love wastefully, and be all that you can be."
-- Bishop Spong
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Quote from: Catalina on August 15, 2013, 05:35:32 AM
I am sure that we have been subject to those catchy little gendered phrases that, pre-transitioning, may have driven us bonkers.

Like, "Be a man," or "Boys will be boys." or "Man up!"

Or even the other side, "Ladies don't eat in the street." "Ladies first!"

These are all stereotypes of course, and all stereotypes are based on a partial truth, or a rather flimsy observation. .....



Yes I hate them. They all seem to be down to human evolution and I suppose the revolution that followed. I will except the not eating in the street though. The others all come as part of pack survival instinct. Its outdated but hey. That's where a lot of our problems as a species come from; overcoming redundant urges that are hang overs from the fact that our bodies and minds are evolved to deal with an environment that is very different from the one that we are in.  There are a whole bunch of ways that this affects us as trans people, but that will take me way off topic :-)

Edge

Quote from: Catalina on August 15, 2013, 05:35:32 AMDespite our calls for gender equality, men still seem to like opening doors for women to somehow prove an invisible code of honour or chivalry.
I open doors for people (of any gender) because it's a nice, little gesture and I'm opening the door for myself anyway.
I used to be told I "could be so pretty," that I should wear make-up, fix my "Maid Marion hair," do something about my eyebrows, wear less baggy clothes, etc. I didn't really mind, but it was kind of annoying having people tell me how I should want to look.
What really bugged (bugs) me though is in elementary school, the girls and boys played in separate groups.
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A

I was long annoyed by my mother who made me all sorts of annoying housework because "it's a little boy's job". Lawn mowing even though I'm allergic, all the dog's poop on the excuse that my sister vomits too easily when picking it up, snow shoveling even though I've always been by far the weakest, physically, of the family... THAT has aggravated me so much forever. And without a word, since I transitioned, she doesn't even think of suggesting that I do that kind of boy's job. I wish I could tell her the definition of sexism.

Also, there's clothes. Mostly, casual clothes was all stuff that a girl could easily wear too, so I wasn't intensely bored by what I wore on a daily basis. But when came my graduation ball after high school... You're SUPPOSED to wear a tuxedo. Ew. I really didn't want to. So I made my mother search left and right (vengeance!) for something a bit more colourful and acceptably pleasant to wear. I looked pretty unique in a light green shirt. And I'm pretty sure I was the only "guy" who went to the hairdresser to get my hair fixed before the ball. My friends had told me it made me look younger (aka girlier but don't wanna say it like that). One of the only times in my life I had relatively short hair and thought I looked cute in it. I'm really glad I didn't let myself be taken away by gender expectations too much for that once, and managed to still make that night a relatively good memory.

And... Ew, separate groups for boys and girls. You just reminded me of that. Almost all boys would have to play dodgeball, because girls would reject them from their own games (skipping rope and some other stuff that I forgot), and I think boys only reluctantly accepted a girl to play dodgeball. Well, it depended on the school. I'm pretty sure that between the 3-4 primary schools I went to, there's a few where everyone without exception had to play the same game (mostly dodgeball; occasionally capture the flag). That does have its disadvantages depending on the point of view, but the good part is that I didn't feel all that isolated in a world of boys...

And then there was that summer day camp where I went for quite a few years... Groups after 4 years old were entirely separated by gender, and they barely ever met, even eating at different times. They should have known how unhealthy it is for children to be separated like that, sheesh. I wonder if it's still like that today.

Oh yeah, and one summer my mother had more money, she put me into a full-on summer camp, for two weeks (I think). A camp exclusively for boys, with the only women being the lifeguards and a secretary. They had fun activities, but... Come on, a camp exclusively for boys. Even at my young, naive age, I asked whyever there weren't any girls and found it stupid. That implied some "awesome" stuff, like "Indian Day", where the whole day is themed around Natives, and everyone is forced to go shirtless. How I cried and refused before they could finally get me to do it on the condition that I had a towel that I could keep on me at all times.
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Night Haven

I get stereotypes and why they're there, but don't necessarily buy into them. I get that some of them I might want to follow, just to be more easily recognized as masculine, and will have to tone down a few feminine ones that could get me taken less seriously. Sucks, as I don't buy into the typical dichotomy, so following any at all is just kind of... Nn.

Hah-- One of my ex's was like that. The chivalrous man, and I expect he viewed me very much as a woman. *Grins* I'm glad I ended that one, but I wonder how he would have reacted to my - ah, views and way of living. He seemed rather traditional.

As for the separate groups for girls and boys-

When I was in elementary school, we didn't have so much of that. For the most part, especially in larger games, everyone would play together, and there would be a few smaller groups who didn't want to play and branched off which didn't seem to be based on gender so much as groups of friends.
Though, my memory is bad and pretty hazy, so I could just be missing stuff.

We've still got different sports for boys and girls, though, which ticks me off. I can get used to it for practical reasons (difference in aggression, strength, etc.), but it's just slightly enraging when a women's sport gets named something ridiculous as the football team did - Power Puff Football. *Cringe*
Sometime it looks like the teachers arranged our seats in a male-female-male-female pattern, or had one table group be a solid gender, which is... *Sigh* Annoying. This was more pronounced in high school, though I'm sure we had the male-female-male grouping of desks in elementary school too.
-Fight for the changes you want to see made; become the changes you want to see in the world.-

-The world is worse enough as it is; let us be and let be. Let's stop spreading hate and start spreading acceptance...-
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Darkflame

Most of the stereotype bs I ran into was in elementary and middle school. I stopped having too many problems with it once I started high school and later (could just be bacause I went to an art school :P ) I guess because I was masculine enough that people just didn't expect ladylike behavior out of me. I wasn't going to be pretty and dainty, people around me just accepted that. It was only when I started telling people I was trans later on that there was a sudden wrap around to stereotypes, because people were trying really hard to classify me. I'd been undefinable to some people beforehand. It's like they were fine to let me do my own thing when they thought I was just a girl who didn't fit the common conception of one.

I did get a lot of that when I was younger though. After I moved schools in elementary from a downtown school in the city to a farm school... yeah, the kids there were a lot more accustomed to traditional gender behavior. All the girls played four square or jump rope and the boys played all the fad games like pokemon/bayblade/yugioh, all that good stuff. I always got more into that stuff than the girls I knew, but at my last school everyone was pretty obsessed with pokemon, both male and female, but apparently to the girls at this school liking that kind of stuff was 'weird' if you were a girl. Eventually the girls decided to ban me from playing four square with them, which sucked cause it was actually a fun game  :-\ For whatever reason they just really wanted me to know that they didn't want me associating with them. I'm guessing it was more my general way of being, I couldn't relate to them that well.

Middle school was all the normal stuff "Tell me who you like, I know you have to like at least one guy in this school"  ::) and "You'd look soooo pretty with makeup, and if you picked out cuter clothes" I don't know, middle school seems like that weird time in life where everyone just lives on sterotypes. And of course, I had the good luck of having to deal with a lot of guys hitting on me and trying to pressure me into being more feminine. Mostly because I got a lot of attention for having a larger chest than any of the other girls in my grade, so I also got a lot of nasty "slut" rumors spread about me, even though I told every guy who tried to hit on me to buzz off  ::)
If I let where I'm from burn I can never return

"May those who accept their fate find happiness, those who defy it, glory"
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Adam (birkin)

Haha, I remember the "so which guy do you like at school?" I said "uh, no one really" and she gave me this look of disdain and said "well that's boring, who do you have to look nice for?" I was kinda like...um, I don't really care, haha.

I disliked gender stereotypes before transition, and I feel the same way after transition. Yeah...some are based on partial truths, but to me, I see them as really shallow. It's quite simplistic to say "all guys are like this" and "all girls are like this." Actually paying attention would show most people that it is more complicated than that.
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JillSter

I've always hated "man up." That's the one phrase that would push my big red button that says DANGER: SELF DESTRUCT! PROCEED TO MINIMUM SAFE DISTANCE!

I remember when I was about five years old I saw my grandfather doing the dishes and I said, "why are you doing the dishes? That's women's work." My mom never let me forget that! :laugh:

Gender stereotypes are ingrained in us from a very early age.
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A

Lol, Jillian, in the same style, someone (probably my father) without really explaining convinced me that being "macho" was positive; being a good person. Once for some obscure reason my mother called me macho, and for way too long after that I was proud of being macho. And then I learned what it really meant. Such shame.

Also, yeah. Man up. My mother used to tell me that all the time. Well, direct translation is "make a man out of yourself", and I know she just meant "grow up; you're being childish" because "make a woman/big girl out of yourself" can also be said, but still. It made me want to absolutely not do what she said, no matter how positive my brain told me it was.

Quote from: Darkflame on August 15, 2013, 04:42:16 PM
Middle school was all the normal stuff "Tell me who you like, I know you have to like at least one guy in this school"  ::) and "You'd look soooo pretty with makeup, and if you picked out cuter clothes" I don't know, middle school seems like that weird time in life where everyone just lives on sterotypes.

Really? Wow, I think I've gone to a rather special school then. Because honestly, I've never heard that kind of "who do you like" outside anime. Even though nearly all of my friends were girls... Or is it something that's kept hidden from guys?

Also whatever I ever saw on TV about high schools and figured to be the stereotype/what I should expect was always very far from the truth. Honestly, I didn't see any popular, oppressive sports team guys, or anything like that, and guys and girls mixed fairly well in groups of friends... So I'd sort of figured that those stereotypes were based on specific schools and experiences from decades ago, with the authors figuring that things wouldn't change, or something like that.

Weird school I guess. Or maybe the fact I was in the international program (which is more work, so I'm guessing lazy people aren't especially inclined to take it) changed my perceptions. Since I never had any classes with them, I never interacted much with people of the regular program at all...
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JillSter

Quote from: A on August 16, 2013, 02:45:17 AM
Really? Wow, I think I've gone to a rather special school then. Because honestly, I've never heard that kind of "who do you like" outside anime. Even though nearly all of my friends were girls... Or is it something that's kept hidden from guys?

Also whatever I ever saw on TV about high schools and figured to be the stereotype/what I should expect was always very far from the truth. Honestly, I didn't see any popular, oppressive sports team guys, or anything like that, and guys and girls mixed fairly well in groups of friends... So I'd sort of figured that those stereotypes were based on specific schools and experiences from decades ago, with the authors figuring that things wouldn't change, or something like that.

Weird school I guess. Or maybe the fact I was in the international program (which is more work, so I'm guessing lazy people aren't especially inclined to take it) changed my perceptions. Since I never had any classes with them, I never interacted much with people of the regular program at all...

I never noticed any exclusive cliqueiness (is that a word?) in high school. It was definitely there in middle school, but in high school the different groups/cliques seemed to intermingle for the most part -- at least in my experience. I think most teenagers have matured beyond that omg-I-can't-be-seen-talking-to-this-person, it'll-ruin-my-reputation phase. Some may be like that, but I'd like to think most teenagers aren't that stupid.

I definitely got a lot of that "who do you like" stuff in middle school. (Not so much in high school though.) If I talked to a girl in middle school, it was almost inevitable that some boy would come up to me and ask if I "go with" her. Unfortunately I never admitted to liking the girl I really liked. I had two crushes. One was little miss popular, who was cute and actually very nice. She never acted grossed out or embarrassed when I talked to her, and she seemed happy enough to talk to me on the phone even though I knew she didn't like me that way. But she wasn't the one I really liked. The girl I really liked had a nasty reputation. Completely unfair, especially for a girl that age. Everyone called her a slut, and everyone treated her like ->-bleeped-<- or just ignored her. :( But the first time I talked to her I couldn't get over how cool she was. I was completely smitten with her. Unfortunately I was a little coward when it came to my social status, and I was dealing with my own problems at that time so asking a girl to "go with" me was pretty much unthinkable. Too bad I didn't meet her again in high school though. :-\

Well, that was way off topic. Sorry. :laugh: Just felt like sharing. :)
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A

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big kim

I hated growing up and being expected to man up.There were parts of it I liked later like driving muscle cars and riding motor bikes but I can remember being bored ****less watching sport on TV with my Dad.
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JillSter

Quote from: A on August 16, 2013, 01:48:36 PM
Well, that was interesting. :p

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I read it again and realized my response sounded kinda random. Sorry. :laugh:
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A

Nope, I just wanted to say that I didn't feel like it was random/uninteresting since you seemed to think so. Admittedly ":p" sort of does sound like I'm laughing at you, but I'm not. No idea why I decided to put that emoticon actually.
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JillSter

Quote from: A on August 16, 2013, 11:32:40 PM
Nope, I just wanted to say that I didn't feel like it was random/uninteresting since you seemed to think so. Admittedly ":p" sort of does sound like I'm laughing at you, but I'm not. No idea why I decided to put that emoticon actually.

I didn't take it that way. :)

I know I tend to go on tangents and lose sight of the point. I started out trying to respond to you but kinda lost my way. Your response just made me laugh at myself. It's all good. :)
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A

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JillSter

Quote from: A on August 17, 2013, 12:17:53 AM
Eeeh? But you didn't do anything wrong or funny!

No I didn't. Your response was funny. To me anyway.

But we're completely derailing this thread so.... :eusa_shhh:

;)
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MellowMoxxi

Quote from: A on August 15, 2013, 12:18:07 PM
I was long annoyed by my mother who made me all sorts of annoying housework because "it's a little boy's job". Lawn mowing even though I'm allergic, all the dog's poop on the excuse that my sister vomits too easily when picking it up, snow shoveling even though I've always been by far the weakest, physically, of the family... THAT has aggravated me so much forever. And without a word, since I transitioned, she doesn't even think of suggesting that I do that kind of boy's job. I wish I could tell her the definition of sexism.

I got the same thing with my sisters and mom growing up. My dad was generally not around so they treated it as if it was my job to pick up the slack and not a family effort. The funny thing was that when my dad was home he made dinner, cleaned the house, did laundry, fixed things and whatever else needed to be done. When he wasn't it was frozen dinners that I generally shoved in the oven and cleaning had to be done by everyone, including the person (me) who was then expected to go mow the lawn for 2 hours. Obviously there's some resentment there.

The funny thing out of all of it is that even into adulthood my mom and sisters still act like this. My sisters moved out of town and don't talk to me, but when they do contact me its to find out why I haven't done something for my mom or some other task. I've been asked for money, or to take care of a kid when I don't know the first thing about it, or prepare a baby shower that I'm not going to be at because they couldn't be troubled with getting into town a day earlier. If I go to see my dad he makes a good meal, asks me how everything is going, and offers to help with anything I need.

I do plenty of work around my house, but expect an even effort put in by everyone, including myself. I prefer to mow the lawn, because I know how to work the machine and how to handle any unexpected problems. I fix things because I'm good at that, but I also wash the dishes and fold laundry.

From all this, if it wasn't for some amazing people in my life I'd believe girls/women were lazy and expected to get by on their looks while men need to provide all levels of support. The truth is that it doesn't matter who or what you are, an irresponsible person is just that, and unfortunately stereotypes can provide them undeserved privileges. I don't expect to change those stereotypes so I have fun with it and drive the people that use them as a crutch a little crazy every time I get the opportunity.
each day stepping through :-X :) :D >:( :( ??? :-\ :'( :embarrassed: | maybe one day truly :D

I think I'm about to go for it. I did it.
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A

Oh uhm, you may have misunderstood that part. I'm the irresponsible one actually if there has to be one, and everyone did do their part rather fairly, from a neutral perspective. However, WHICH part were given to me was the problem. I wouldn't have minded cooking for everyone, but no, it was because mom is busy preparing supper, I have to mow the lawn. Can't be the contrary. But well, that's just something you have to accept in many families. The parents decide and you have no say in it. Hopefully I never make any children I may have feel that way towards me.
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Bardoux

Quote from: A on August 15, 2013, 12:18:07 PM
I was long annoyed by my mother who made me all sorts of annoying housework because "it's a little boy's job". Lawn mowing even though I'm allergic, all the dog's poop on the excuse that my sister vomits too easily when picking it up, snow shoveling even though I've always been by far the weakest, physically, of the family... THAT has aggravated me so much forever.

This pretty much! Albeit i am not actually out to my mum. It is however pretty obvious to me at least that my sister is not only a lot stronger than me now but also very much enjoys taking on a more masculine role, and yet i am the one called for to carry the heavy bags and luggage, change lightbulbs etc.
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