What do we think of this?

[suzifrommd]

I have a good friend who is always very careful about people's feelings. She is trying hard to be a good ally.

She invited me to lunch with another friend whom I hadn't met. The three of us had lunch together, after which the friend left and my longtime friend stayed behind.

At that point I asked what her friend knew about me. She revealed that she had told her that I'm a transgender woman. I asked why.

She said that she didn't want either of us to feel uncomfortable. If her friend had noticed that I was transgender and had a problem with transgender people, the lunch would quickly have become awkward. She wanted to prevent a situation that would leave both of us feeling uncomfortable. So she told her I was a trans woman and asked whether that would be an issue before she made the invitation.

I know my friend had the best of intentions, but I was unhappy that she outed me. She said she was doing it to make sure the occasion that she was organizing didn't become unpleasant.

What do we think?

[Renee]

That's one thing many cis people feel a need to do, warn someone that you're not normal or really this or that. I've found that the ones that do it are often the ones who actually have some sort of issue with it, even if they are otherwise being "supportive" of you. I don't trust the ones that feel a need to out you to anyone without your permission, they apparently have no reasonable boundaries where other people's privacy is concerned.

[Danielle Emmalee]

Should have asked you first.  Then if you had a problem with her outing you and she had a problem with not outing you, you can just not go to lunch.  If you don't have a problem with her outing you then at least she asked.

[Taka]

i've a feeling that what we think might range everywhere from this to that.

what i think however is that outing someone is completely unnecessary. i will not be friends with anyone who reacts negatively to noticing that another friend of mine is or isn't whatever it may be. i don't think it should be necessary for me to tell a trans friend that my other friend dresses very black metal just to prevent any awkward feelings from happening when the two meet for the first time. and i don't think it's necessary to mention that another friend is gay or lesbian or whatever. i would mention if someone had an impressive harem though.

[Sephirah]

I think it's someone who felt the need to protect you, didn't want you to be hurt, but didn't consider how you might feel. I would give her the benefit of the doubt, tell her you were unhappy about it, and why, and ask that she not do it again.

To err is human. If she keeps erring, then maybe reconsider.

[Taka]

i think what sephirah said as well. she was probably doing it for your sake, out of good will. it's just something that should be unnecessary to do, but not all people realize. you should tell her how it made you feel without blaming her for it, and then see if she does it again anyway or not. hurting you when she knows it hurts you more to be outed than having things get a little awkward isn't something a friend should do, but if she understands and stops, you might have found a very good friend in her.

[Northern Jane]

TOTALLY out of line! She had no business sharing YOUR secret with anyone else without asking you first.

My BFF did the same thing to me 23 years ago when I was still stealth, told her husband and her mother. I told her it was WRONG and have never shared anything private with her since nor have I considered her my BFF since.

[Amy The Bookworm]

I think it's someone who felt the need to protect you, didn't want you to be hurt, but didn't consider how you might feel. I would give her the benefit of the doubt, tell her you were unhappy about it, and why, and ask that she not do it again.

To err is human. If she keeps erring, then maybe reconsider.

I think this is most likely the case. A lot of people aren't really familiar with trans people at all. Because of that, they don't realize that to us it's a big deal to be outed in such a way. They may not be aware that for us in some cases it can eve be down right dangerous for the wrong person to know. It sounds to me like she was well meaning and just didn't know any better. I'd suggest talking to her and telling her calmly, why and how you feel.

Hope this helps!

[JillSter]

That's one thing many cis people feel a need to do, warn someone that you're not normal or really this or that. I've found that the ones that do it are often the ones who actually have some sort of issue with it, even if they are otherwise being "supportive" of you.

I have to agree with this. If she felt the need to "warn" someone, then it likely wasn't because she thought you would feel awkward, but because she would feel awkward. Either way it was a breach of trust, and that should be made clear to her.

It doesn't mean she's a terrible person. But I wouldn't let it go without making sure she understood what she did. But that's just me.

[Adam (birkin)]

I do think she meant well...I had a friend who knew I was nervous about not passing, so before I came to this group meeting, she explained to everyone that I was transgender and that I should be referred to as male. I thought that was very sweet of her at the time, because I didn't pass at all and I saw her good intentions.

That said, if someone did it now, 16 months on T, I'd be pretty upset. I feel far enough in that outing is unnecessary, even though I do worry about misgendering still.

[aleon515]

Kind of happened to me too. I am 100% out. But I really don't want someone just starting to inform people. She didn't know I was out. But I think she was totally not aware of what she was doing. I don't know that cispeople have anyway to think about this unless they actually know what to do, and I think very few actually do. Not sure what to do with it though.

--Jay

[suzifrommd]

That said, if someone did it now, 16 months on T, I'd be pretty upset. I feel far enough in that outing is unnecessary, even though I do worry about misgendering still.

Caleb, I think you kind of hit upon the essence of what made me unhappy and also why this is such a thorny issue.

Part of it is that my friend's outing me was a negative comment on my passability in her eyes.

But a bigger part is that it touched on my resentment of "passing privilege", where the cis population affords more rights to passing trans women than to non-passing ones. The bathroom issue is the most obvious manifestation of this, but I think this incident is also a symptom: You need to warn your friend about a non-passing transwoman, but had I passed perfectly, no warning would have been needed.

Of course it's COMPLETELY unrealistic to expect a cis person to be up on these nuances.

[Nero]

You need to warn your friend about a non-passing transwoman, but had I passed perfectly, no warning would have been needed.

I don't know your friend's intentions, but I think sometimes it's not even about the passing issue but the 'everyone should know' issue. People still do this with gay people (oh btw, he's gay) like its relevant. Some people may even feel a stronger need to out someone who passes so nobody 'gets confused' ('deceived').

Of course, it's very possible that your friend really was concerned that the other woman might misgender you or otherwise make the meeting uncomfortable if she didn't know beforehand. But I'm not sure it's a comment on your passability. She may assume that if she can still see 'the old you' or whatever, everyone else can too.

[aleon515]

Passing privilege DEFINITELY exists. But I don't know in my case, the person knew me (actually I had much more contact with her than I do now), I don't think she even knew how well I passed. I think it was more in the realm of gossip. And as far as gossip goes, we are such excellent subjects. What would pick up their dull lives more than someone being transgender. (I'd suggest world travel or something.) I don't mean to imply my friends are nothing but gossip, but it's an amazingly good topic. I don't think it was meant viciously (in my case-- can't speak to your's). I think there is idle gossip and vicious gossip, and I think this for me was more int he realm of idle.  I think it was more a topic. HEy hot topic--_______ is now a guy!!!

The idea of not outing people as a courtesy-- I believe that's a CIS privilege to be free to out people. They are free not to understand that some people do not want to be outed and that outing is up to you. I think as FA says, people need to know this, in their minds.


--Jay

[JillSter]

After reading everyone's comments, I need to revise my own.

I think everybody is right. The choices people make are rarely motivated by one single idea or intention. People are complex, our minds are complex, our feelings are complex, so naturually our choices are complex as well.

She was probably trying to protect your feelings (in her own way) but also trying to avoid an awkward situation that would make her feel uncomfortable. She probably also wants to be supportive but still working it out in her own head, and not fully understanding yet. Then of course there's the gossip factor. She probably didn't mean any harm, but she couldn't resist telling somebody. I bet its easier on friends and family if they have someone other than you to discuss it with.

I think all this adds up to a well-meaning friend who made a mistake, and probably didn't realize it. If she's a true friend she'll be compassionate if you tell her it upset you, and she'll probably be more careful in the future.


My opinion 2.0

[Rachel]

I agree with others, I think it is a teaching opportunity. There could be lots of reasons, you will never know for sure. The act caused you discomfort and unless you address the issue and teach her then it could happen again. Most likely she is kind hearted and wanted what is best but does not understand the implications of her actions.

[mikaelmackison]

I think that if it bothers you that your friend is willing to out you (without consent) when *she* feels it's appropriate, you need to discuss it with her and ask her not to do so in the future.  You might also gently remind her that each person she informs then has the potential to distribute said information (again, without your consent).

[Kaori]

I used to hang out with groups of people who are very different from each other. Let's see, I had my goth friends, my clubbing friends, my work friends, my college friends (a small handful who were strippers), and some people my girlfriend knew who owned their own company and was the business type who drives jaguars and golf balls. Then there was my brothers friends who were just a couple years younger than me, who we both often played all sorts of sports with, went out to the lake, had parties out in the desert, roasted marsh mellows and "tossed a few" back with. Hmm, I might be forgetting a few.

But to juggle all these groups of people I learned quick not to talk for other people. I learned it was definitely best not to explain who this person or that person was and why I hung out with them or how I knew them. It's just bad form.

The only person who I explained my friends to were my brother, my girlfriend and my roommate. And my parents of course, if they met. The rest of them, if they got questions they can ask the person who they have questions about. Otherwise fights happen and feelings get hurt.

Sure, it made things awkward and/or interesting sometimes when these 'groups' of people would run into each other. But it's better than labeling everyone and putting them all in neat little boxes based on their job, dress, hobby, sexual orientation, education, etc.

That may not be the best way to do with things, but that's how I do it. It works for me. YMMV.

If your friend did something wrong, let them know. If you don't want them doing that, draw the line for them clearly. If they don't get it, explain it to them. If they care, they will listen and do their best to work with you on it. If they are a good friend, you can work it out together.

If they look at you like you are nuts and think you're being ridiculous, they aren't friend material in my opinion. But then again, I'd be passing judgement on the friend you mentioned based on 188 words you wrote.

Life is fun

[Jasriella]

Well when I told one of my friends she told all of her friends and eventually one day we all went out for dinner and I just felt super awkward. We all talked and the conversation never got on the transgender topic but I know it was lingering in the air that they know and I couldn't tell if I was just that tag along person in the group or if they were accepting me as part of the group. All girls and me being the only male and them knowing I want to be a girl...... so confused. I mean yeah everyone will know at some point but I was really uncomfortable.

[Lesley_Roberta]

First rule of stealth, it all or nothing. You either tell no one at all or you tell everyone and deal with it.

My friends have been told it is NOT a secret, and thus, my friends and family are equipped with that knowledge.

It only takes one wrong person knowing and everyone knows.

I don't think the friend did any wrong, they are after all a friend. They were thinking of you at the time so freaking on them is wrong. Your friends are not psychic, and they can't every nuance of what is going on in your head, heck we often don't know ourselves.

Your only real choice is sit down with friend and clarify the knowledge is utterly not for transmission to anyone for any reason whatsoever. That way they won't have any problems.'

Now, if a friend was told that, and still does it, you have made a different mistake, you have used the word friend incorrectly.