Standard Terms and Definitions 2

[Susan]

Here are the proposed definitions. I would like feedback on them.

Community Definitions:

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and Transvestites.

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Transvestite: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Other terms:

Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site.

[rhonda13000]

I have known issues with the 'pre/post-op' categorization, but I have no issue with the remnant.

[Seshatneferw]

Reading the definition for transsexual I was not entirely sure on whether the term was supposed to apply also to someone who has had all the possible treatments, especially in the MTF case where SRS is a feasible option. Defining post-op made me feel it does cover these cases, but has the body of the other is a slightly ambiguous wording. Then again, for all I know it might be intentional -- there are, after all, people who consider themselves no longer transsexual.

All in all, good job.

  Nfr

[katia]

All in all, good job.

i concord.

[Shana A]

Thanks for doing this! It all looks good to me, except I noticed that non-op isn't listed. This is a viable choice that some make.

zythyra

[rhonda13000]

Thanks for doing this! It all looks good to me, except I noticed that non-op isn't listed. This is a viable choice that some make.

zythyra

That is true.

A pertinent observation, hon.

[SarahFaceDoom]

Not sure about the definition of Cross-Dresser.  Theoretically that definition would also apply to non-op, non-hormone transsexuals.  But isn't the difference between the two mentally/intent?  Like a cross-dresser doesn't actually want to be permanently acknowledged as the gender opposite their birth sex.  I think that definition is missing something in that direction.  But I could be wrong.

[taru]

I think by the definitions above non-op TS people are TS, with them being exceptions to the "generally". btw is there data on how many percent of TS diagnosed people end up with the surgery?

[Kate]

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

I like the definitions, but realize that this definition allows people who don't feel a need to change their bodies to still call themselves transsexuals. So many threads got locked down because of the ensuing catfights over this, I'm not sure this will change anything unless the definitions are basically enforced, and not allowing even IMHOs to override them.

Newbie: "Hi, I'm a transsexual, but I don't want SRS."

Veteran: "Well IMHO, there are no non-ops."

Newbie: "Well according to the forum definitions, I don't have to want SRS to be a TS."

Veteran: "Well I don't care what the forum definitions say, IMHO, you're not a real TS then."

And then the fun begins, just as before?

~Kate~

[LostInTime]

Anyone who challenges someone else is violating the rules of the site and enforcement will occur. It is possible to have a reasonable and rational discussion on this subject as we can all see here on this thread.

This is a very personal journey and I realise a number of people get hung up on labels. Labeling will depend on whatever factors one may wish to consider for one's journey. However, those same factors may not exist for someone else. IE some who are IS will identify as TS while others may reject the TS classification.

This is not a website for an insurance carrier nor for the APA. This is a site for support, friendship, and the sharing of a collective knowledge. I do not care how you label yourself only that you are here and human. We can but light a part of the path, it is up to the person to take the journey.

Just wanted to add that the above is just my .02 and YMMV and all that.

[Nikki]

I would concur with the need for a Non-op definition. The Transsexual definition is inclusive but the definition of only Post-Op and Pre-Op(excludes non-op because 'yet' implies inevitability) excludes those who do not plan on SRS an exclusion that has resulted in some very nasty attacks on individuals here.

Maybe

Non-ops: Transsexuals who do not plan to have gender reassignment surgery for whatever reason. In some cases Non-ops will later plan gender reassignment surgery.

[Sarah Louise]

I have no problem with the definitions.

In reading the responses, again we prove that coming to agreement on terms is never that easy.

Sarah L.

[Susan]

Non-ops are still transsexuals, which is why I left out of the list of terms. Surgery is not required for a TS, though it's rare that a TS doesn't have surgery. The main issue is how do you differentiate in the term between someone who is a non-op ts and someone who isn't a TS but decides to get HRT (usually unprescribed because they likely couldn't get them under the SOC) for self erotic purposes. That's why I think leaving the term as Transsexual for non-ops works out the best.

Planning to later have surgery indicates that the pre-op label would be more accurate. (desires to have gender reassignment surgery)

[SarahFaceDoom]

Well okay.  I know of this one girl's blog, and she is non-op, AND non-hormone, yet she has had her name legally changed, has been living as a woman for like 10 years--where would she fit under these definitions?  I don't readily see a place.  Because clearly she is not cross-dressing, and she's not doing it for erotic purposes so she's not a transvestite(at least as far as I can tell from what she writes about herself and her transition).  So where does she fit under these definitions?

Do even using terms like pre-op, non-op, post-op prove constructive?  Because you're essentially putting being TS into levels, and while not explicitly ranking them in TSness, there is I think an implication that the sole core of what it means to be a TS is your relation to surgery. 

Isn't the actual diffrence between TS, CD, TV that TS is about permanently associating yourself with the gender opposite your birth sex, whereas CD and TV are not.  And then again Androgyne would be the same differentiation--permanently living between--vs. CD and TV which are again, not permanent?

[Susan]

She would be Transsexual or transgender Sarah which ever she was more comfortable with.

Yes these terms are constructive. It allows new people to figure out where they fit in. It lets us put groups of people who are sharing the same situations and circumstances together for more private peer support, and lastly it also ensures that we are all talking about the same thing at the same time. No one is required to disclose their gender status on this site. They don't have to publicly pick a term to apply to themselves. It's totally their option. It also puts a stop to arguments like oh so and so hasn't had hrt and srs so she's not a true transsexual. It just means that they are not post-op. But that's perfectly fine.

I adjusted post-op and pre-op to address some concerns that Rhonda expressed to me in a private message.

[Kara]

I like where this has gone. Good job.

[rhonda13000]

I would concur with the need for a Non-op definition. The Transsexual definition is inclusive but the definition of only Post-Op and Pre-Op(excludes non-op because 'yet' implies inevitability) excludes those who do not plan on SRS an exclusion that has resulted in some very nasty attacks on individuals here.

Maybe

Non-ops: Transsexuals who do not plan to have gender reassignment surgery for whatever reason. In some cases Non-ops will later plan gender reassignment surgery.

And the fact that a woman chooses the 'non-op' route does in no way negate from her femininity or womanhood.

She is still a sister to me.

[lydiadavis]

It occurs to me that the term Transsexual is a label which is used by 'other people'  to describe our condition.
Essentially, it is an attempt by the cisgendered community to categorize us and identify the 'problem'.

With all due respect to the medical community, we who are labeled  'transsexuals' should be described by what we know to be our true gender identity. For MTF that would be women and for FTM, men.

Whether society accepts us in our correct gender role is another issue entirely and has no bearing on who we are

There are those who would like nothing more than to see us divided and squabbling over labels that were not of our creation. Sadly, they have been succeeding.

--o(Lydia)o--

[Susan]

We are women and men, but we are also transsexual there's no shame or stigma in that.

[Kendall]

Androgyne: a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical gender roles of their society.  Androgyne have a unique gender identity which is not of the traditional genders of male or female. Androgynes may identify as beyond gender, between genders, moving across genders, entirely genderless, and as any combination or all of these.

I cant see anything wrong with this definition at the moment. Although small thing is only half in a recent poll mentioned gender identity. Most primarily mentioned gender behavior as the highest common influence Poll https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14002.0/viewResults.html.