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So it's back to this, is it?

Started by JillSter, August 29, 2013, 03:08:26 AM

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JillSter

I've spent most of my life wishing I had been born female; stressing over it and trying to forget it, and pretty much driving myself crazy over it. I have hang-ups about my male body, I despise being treated like a "man" and so on. You get the point. So I must be MtF, right?

Well, no. Apparently that's not right.

It recently occured to me that I've been thinking of myself in binary terms. I was never able to picture myself in a female gender role without feeling awkward about it. It's much the same way I feel when I get hit up with "bro talk." Only I at least have experience being treated as a guy, so I can navigate the cismale world with relative ease. But I have no experience being female, and frankly I'm not interested in being a woman per se. It seems it's more complicated than that.

I realized it's not that I want to be female; I want to be female-bodied. I want to be the person I already am, only in the body that better fits my internal self image. I'm not male, I knew that already. I'm not female, that's not a shocker either. For so long I kept trying to wedge myself into one or the other, and neither ever really fit. Female was always a much more comfortable image of myself, but I couldn't picture myself as anything more than a female-bodied person. And that actually makes sense to me now. I feel like my body should be female because my gender, whatever it is, aligns with that body. But I don't want to be treated like a woman any more than I want to be treated like a man.

So I threw out the binary dictionary (both words! I'm so wasteful!) and I started looking for a definition that fits me better. And then I realized I was still stuck in binary thinking, trying to define myself in non-binary terms with a binary explanation. ::)

So I'm trying to disabuse myself of gender labels in the hope of understanding myself better. But I feel like I'm out in the cold and I once again have no idea what I am, except different, which I already knew.

That I'm different, is the only thing I've been sure of all my life. I thought I had gotten past this part. :-\

I'm beginning to think gender is as complex and diverse as personality; that everyone experiences their gender differently. So each person's gender would be unique. Genders like snowflakes? :D

So anyway, I'll be poking around your neck of the woods for a little while, and hopefully I can open my mind in the process and learn to see things from a higher vantage point. I feel like my perspective is still too narrow to see myself clearly.
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Cindy

After a very short time working with people who have gender dysphoria I have realise that there are no definitions, there are no categories. I counsel so called cis people as well and I haven't met two who have the same concept of their sexuality and identity when pushed to think about it.

We seem more attuned to wanting to fit into some sort of category so we can be 'normal'.

Waste of time.

We are.

And that becomes the problem, we then want to be validated as normal.

And how do you validate the obvious?

Because in some countries you have strident (usually religious) groups or politicians who have a position of vocal power they think they can invalidate your belief in yourself.

They cannot:
I'm black. I'm white, I'm yellow, I'm a blend. Which is the right one?

All of them.

Same with gender.

Cindy
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JillSter

Quote from: Cindy on August 29, 2013, 03:34:18 AM
After a very short time working with people who have gender dysphoria I have realise that there are no definitions, there are no categories. I counsel so called cis people as well and I haven't met two who have the same concept of their sexuality and identity when pushed to think about it.

We seem more attuned to wanting to fit into some sort of category so we can be 'normal'.

Waste of time.

We are.

And that becomes the problem, we then want to be validated as normal.

And how do you validate the obvious?

Because in some countries you have strident (usually religious) groups or politicians who have a position of vocal power they think they can invalidate your belief in yourself.

They cannot:
I'm black. I'm white, I'm yellow, I'm a blend. Which is the right one?

All of them.

Same with gender.

Cindy

You're right. I have definitely worried about being discovered as being different -- not like "normal" people. I doubt I'm alone in that feeling.

I like that you said "so called cis." I'm beginning to wonder if trans and cis are anything more than adjectives. If you think about it, if gender is complex and not all neat and orderly like we were taught to believe, then trans and cis both lose their meaning outside politics and bigotry. The concepts themselves are just a way to identify something less tangible than societies are generally comfortable dealing with. So maybe that cis guy down the street has a more complex gender identity than I do, but he doesn't question it because it fits him and what's expected of him by others.

Of course I don't mean to invalidate anyone's experience. I'm just pondering, that's all. :)
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Cindy

My working life uses technology that uses the energy that happens when you hit chemicals with a laser. They then emit energy.

What you see is a spectrum.

There is no good or bad place on that spectrum, there is just a place.

It is the same in gender and in sex.

Of course sex and gender are different.

But that is also a simple hang up for some people.

To make it fun. Me or it that I?

I'm married to a woman who I love and loves me, We have a 30 yr marriage, we have not had sex for about 27 years. She is, due to a terrible accident, in a nursing home.

I have a boyfriend who is straight.

I'm a heterosexual female.

So, bear with me:

I'm a straight female, legally married to a female, who lives with her male boyfriend, who cannot legally be seen as female on my marriage certificate  because same sex marriage is illegal in Australia. and while my gender marker has been changed legally on every document

So.
Don't worry about labels!!!!
We are normal!!!

In an odd way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Taka

Quote from: Jillian on August 29, 2013, 03:08:26 AM
So I threw out the binary dictionary (both words! I'm so wasteful!) and I started looking for a definition that fits me better. And then I realized I was still stuck in binary thinking, trying to define myself in non-binary terms with a binary explanation. ::)
this gave me a real laugh. thanks a lot.
that dictionary doesn't sound very helpful in describing people, you'd be missing all the important words.

QuoteI'm beginning to think gender is as complex and diverse as personality; that everyone experiences their gender differently. So each person's gender would be unique. Genders like snowflakes? :D
sounds similar to what ativan uses to say. i like to use colors instead. seems they've already gotten to 48 bits, which would be trillions of color. definitely enough to cover all humans in the world. unfortunately the human eye can only discriminate only up to ten million colors, so we're not likely to be able to see the difference between each and every gender that exists. and many will look very similar, so similar many think we only need two words to describe them all (are they color blind?)[/quote]

QuoteSo anyway, I'll be poking around your neck of the woods for a little while, and hopefully I can open my mind in the process and learn to see things from a higher vantage point. I feel like my perspective is still too narrow to see myself clearly.
reminds me of this story from a hunter. he once got an elk calf so close that he could only see hairs in the rifle scope, so he had to look outsite it to get a good aim.
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Jamie D

Jillian, I try not to worry about labels too much.  They just confuse me, because I tend to be genderfluid - a very non-binary concept - and then I get upset at it all.

Labels are only useful if you want to describe yourself to someone else.

We see things like trans*, cis*, MtF, FtM, and the like.  If I have to put a label on it for people here, I might use:

A(maab) ---> A(fem)

[which reads, androgyne (male assigned at birth) to androgyne (femininized)]

As I feel I embody aspects of both the major genders, ideally I would like my predominately male body to reflect that.
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Lo

Some binary folks like to think, like bi people, were simply in a transitory stage of discovery when we find ourselves under the nonbinary umbrella, and that eventually we're going to stop fooling around and pick one or the other already. Hogwash!

How many of us found that being MtF or FtM was the transitory stage? Many more than they'll ever admit.

There's a terrible pressure to be one or the other or to want to be one or othe other. Don't give in. ;)
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ativan

Jillian! Welcome to the Forest!
The adventure begins.
When it comes to gender, there are no two people who are exactly alike.
This is important. Really important.
Terms used are descriptive. They not only have meaning to the person using them, but also to the person hearing them.
Rarely do they mean the same thing to each person.
When you use them to tell people who you are, they are going to hear something different than you meant.
That's the downfall of using a description as a label. Stop it.
Don't let labels beat you up by confining yourself to them.
We simply do not do that here. For the most part, there is always the exception.
Most of the discussions around topics here will almost always reflect that one way or another.
Taka likes to use colors as a way of describing gender, and uses it very effectively.
Cindy uses a spectrum to describe gender. It works very well to understand gender.
Everyone has their own approach to it.
The ability to understand the diversity of it, is key to finding your own way.
Gender, gender roles or presentation, and orientation.
All separate, but they all reflect that diversity.

I use a spectrum and a very broad division of gender into to different groups that overlap all over the place.
I use it to help define some of the differences in thinking about gender from two different viewpoints.
There is the binary spectrum and then there is the non-binary not a spectrum.
It's useful to realize that indeed you can have a spectrum of characteristics between male and female.
Some people feel comfortable in finding a small space to a large place on that spectrum.
Binary thinking. It seems to be a comfortable way of viewing gender for quite a few people.
From a non-binary view, this doesn't work. Again the problem of descriptive terms comes up.
We seem to be all over the map in terms of a spectrum, which would appear to be a problem.
It's not. We just have a need to pick and choose from all over the place, never being satisfied with just an area on a spectrum.
Simply put, there are binary and there are non-binary. Don't let that confuse you.
It's simply a way to loosely describe the way we think.
Binaries seem (I don't really know, I assume a lot here) comfortable with a spectrum.
Non-binaries are comfortable with pick and choose from all over that spectrum.
I just define it as a way of thinking about gender. It seems like a legitimate split in the way *Trans People think.
But keep in mind that nobody is confined to thinking in any given way. Binary or Non-Binary.
Like I said, there is a lot of overlap in gender, and gender thinking.

There are people who find themselves moving between Binary and Non-Binary thinking all the time.
It's not unusual, it's usually the result of finding better information that leads to decisions that they are comfortable in making.
I talk about things in terms of binary and non-binary. I'm comfortable with it.
But only because I have been questioning gender and seek answers to my own thoughts and feelings about it.

So the best advice I can give anyone, is to get as much information as possible before making any kind of decisions.
Find that vantage point you are comfortable with.
If you want to know about non-binary, just dig through the topics in this section and read the threads.
The diversity of ideas and views can be overwhelming at first, but the more you know, the better it gets.
There are pages of topics, some short threads, some long.
They all have a tendency to overlap or intersect at points.
We commonly refer to them as paths in this forest.
We are not an exclusive group. Neither is binary. You'll find some of everyone here.

It's a place where different is the normal. Gender description is diverse and doesn't follow any well worn path in life.
Gender morphs into whatever you want it to be. Because it can.
Gender is an ongoing process for many people here. You're not confined by descriptions.
Look around, you just might find a place you want to be. Always a good thing, finding yourself.

But also be aware that you can wander to your hearts content in descriptions.
We refrain from using labels, but use descriptions instead, knowing that they mean different things to different people.
Lots of discussion about those. We learn from each other. We will learn from you as well.
You sound like you're ready to start viewing gender on your own terms.
Hand around, read and consider. Nothing is written in stone here.
You'll find plenty of binaries who visit, for their own reasons.
Maybe it's because we just can't take things too seriously about gender definitions.
We take gender seriously enough, it's just the lack of true non-binary definitions.
It's the definitions that seem loose and fuzzy or wibbly-wobbly, to borrow a term.
We use binary words, because that's what the bulk of our languages use.
We just define them from a different viewpoint.

What a long redundant explanation this is. But it's how that works here.
Ideas and descriptions of things are always changing. We grow as people.
Look around and discover the things you're looking for.
You'll find answers to questions you haven't begun to ask, yet.
We do that, not only to ourselves, but to those who come to visit.
Either way, see you around on the paths.  :)
Ativan
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JillSter

Quote from: Cindy on August 29, 2013, 04:33:57 AM
I'm a straight female, legally married to a female, who lives with her male boyfriend, who cannot legally be seen as female on my marriage certificate  because same sex marriage is illegal in Australia. and while my gender marker has been changed legally on every document

Wow! That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

It's good that they didn't declare your marriage null and void, but it's pretty convoluted logic to acknowledge you as female under their own laws and then contradict their own laws when it comes to marriage.

Just legalize marriage already! Forget "same-sex marriage." Marriage! Between people! Because right now, in most of the world, marriage is an exclusive club that "don't serve your kind here."


Quote from: Taka on August 29, 2013, 05:05:40 AM
sounds similar to what ativan uses to say. i like to use colors instead. seems they've already gotten to 48 bits, which would be trillions of color. definitely enough to cover all humans in the world. unfortunately the human eye can only discriminate only up to ten million colors, so we're not likely to be able to see the difference between each and every gender that exists. and many will look very similar, so similar many think we only need two words to describe them all (are they color blind?)

With all the possible combinations of genes (plus the fact that they change over time), the number of different variations of people would be pretty much unimaginable. If gender is unique to the individual, there'd probably never be two identical gender identities. The universe won't exist long enough for a repeat. How cool is that! :D


Quote from: Taka on August 29, 2013, 05:05:40 AM
reminds me of this story from a hunter. he once got an elk calf so close that he could only see hairs in the rifle scope, so he had to look outsite it to get a good aim.

That should be a proverb. There's so much truth in it.


Quote from: Jamie D on August 29, 2013, 05:47:42 AM
A(maab) ---> A(fem)

[which reads, androgyne (male assigned at birth) to androgyne (femininized)]

As I feel I embody aspects of both the major genders, ideally I would like my predominately male body to reflect that.

That's pretty close to what I've been feeling, but I realized that being part-male, part-female makes me something entirely different. But then I had trouble figuring out what that actually was because I was still thinking of it in terms of male and female. But if I reel it back in, that's very similar to how I feel. It just doesn't tell the whole story. :)

But you're right. Labels really are only useful for describing yourself to someone else, which in a perfect world, you should never have to do anyway. I'm naturally curious though. I want to understand things. And it's frustrating not being able to understand the most fundamental part of life – the self.


Quote from: Lo on August 29, 2013, 09:38:34 AM
Some binary folks like to think, like bi people, were simply in a transitory stage of discovery when we find ourselves under the nonbinary umbrella, and that eventually we're going to stop fooling around and pick one or the other already. Hogwash!

How many of us found that being MtF or FtM was the transitory stage? Many more than they'll ever admit.

There's a terrible pressure to be one or the other or to want to be one or othe other. Don't give in. ;)

LOL! I won't! :D

I'm figuring this out myself. The farther I stray from the neat little boxes they want everyone to live in, the more free I feel within myself. That's a very new feeling for me. I've always felt... well, the way I described it to my therapist was, "on my hands and knees chained to the floor with an iron shackle around my neck; unable to move." Or something like that.

I prefer freedom, even if it can be scary out there all alone. It's better than being subjugated by my own fears.
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JillSter

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 29, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
Jillian! Welcome to the Forest!
The adventure begins.

Thank you! :D

I hope there's a tour guide because I'm gonna need one. :P


Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 29, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
When it comes to gender, there are no two people who are exactly alike.
This is important. Really important.
Terms used are descriptive. They not only have meaning to the person using them, but also to the person hearing them.
Rarely do they mean the same thing to each person.
When you use them to tell people who you are, they are going to hear something different than you meant.
That's the downfall of using a description as a label. Stop it.
Don't let labels beat you up by confining yourself to them.

That's a very good point. It's not easy to unlearn old habits like that, but I feel like words are losing their meaning the deeper I look into myself. The trick is finding new ways to express what I'm discovering.


Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 29, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
So the best advice I can give anyone, is to get as much information as possible before making any kind of decisions.
Find that vantage point you are comfortable with.
If you want to know about non-binary, just dig through the topics in this section and read the threads.
The diversity of ideas and views can be overwhelming at first, but the more you know, the better it gets.
There are pages of topics, some short threads, some long.
They all have a tendency to overlap or intersect at points.
We commonly refer to them as paths in this forest.
We are not an exclusive group. Neither is binary. You'll find some of everyone here.

It's a place where different is the normal. Gender description is diverse and doesn't follow any well worn path in life.
Gender morphs into whatever you want it to be. Because it can.
Gender is an ongoing process for many people here. You're not confined by descriptions.
Look around, you just might find a place you want to be. Always a good thing, finding yourself.

I feel like I've wandered into a much more abstract world than I knew existed. Being able to define things in simple terms is such a crutch, we don't even realize we're using it until we're forced to walk without it. So I put down the crutch, but sometimes I look at myself and realize I'm still holding it! It's a persistent little thing!

But I like abstraction. I refuse to believe that anything is as simple as it appears on the surface. The deeper you go, the more complexities you discover.

It's confusing, and I feel a little lost atm, but I feel kinda free for once. It's a nice feeling!

Thanks for the advice. I fully intend to pick your brains and learn. :)
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ativan

Quote from: Lo on August 29, 2013, 09:38:34 AM
How many of us found that being MtF or FtM was the transitory stage? Many more than they'll ever admit.
There's a terrible pressure to be one or the other or to want to be one or other other. Don't give in. ;)
I forgot to mention how Lo so easily summed this up.
We put this kind of pressure on ourselves.
It doesn't necessarily come from outside ourselves.
It's a difficult thing to get passed if it isn't right for yourself.
This also works the other way around. Some people here find they truly are MTF or FTM.
Over the time I have been around here, I have seen it happen both ways many times.
Always, it is from finding the information they were seeking.
The more you discover, the greater the truth of who you are.

Abstract thinking goes a long way here.
I think you'll like where it takes you.
Ativan
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Kia

I don't really have anything to add since all these wonderful people have summed up everything I could have said, but a little redundancy never killed anyone.

Jillian I had almost the same experience as you; I thought I wanted to be a woman and all that jazz, but what I really wanted was to have a female body. And my further explorations have revealed that I do kind of want to be woman, but I wouldn't really consider that I am one it seems to me like trading one ill fitting suit for another. I'm an individual and I think my being is a bit bigger than man or woman, than all the labels we have; I think we're all bigger than the words we use to describe ourselves.

Language is by it's nature limited and pragmatic; we wouldn't have invented poetry if it wasn't. It falls short in those moments where we try to grasp and describe the beautifully complex experiences of being a human being and being alive. Some days if you ask me I'm not even non-binary, most days I'm just me. Words are fun especially labels; I like to think up new ways to describe my gender just because I like to imagine people's reactions if I ever decided to tell anyone further than "I'm trans*".

Anyway that's my bit, and can I just say @Taka I really like your color metaphor for gender you had another post describing it and it solved all the problems I had with the common spectrum narrative.

QuoteMy working life uses technology that uses the energy that happens when you hit chemicals with a laser. They then emit energy.

^^ Also Cindy uses lasers :o
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Taka

Quote from: Kia on August 29, 2013, 02:03:49 PM
Anyway that's my bit, and can I just say @Taka I really like your color metaphor for gender you had another post describing it and it solved all the problems I had with the common spectrum narrative.
it took me quite a while to visualize it myself. there's that one dimensional line that goes
m –––––––––– a ––––––––––– f
way too simple, my own gender isn't represented there at all.

and then there is this two dimensional spectrum that can blend the colors a lot, but is still usually not more of a blend than a full color circle at best, and just blue and red with some purple in between and maybe a little fade to white at the worse end of that scale. they still don't quite get there, since the world i know is at least three dimensional. if it's not, how is something supposed to be fluid in between...

the reason i like colors is that we tend to associate feelings and emotions with them. and anyone who has color sight and has lived long enough, should know the difference between black and white and full color. i haven't really lived long enough, i just grew up with an outdated tv, so i got used to imagining what colors all those shades of grey were. it's such an interesting experience to see something go from monochrome to full color, like discovering the world anew, so i can't really help using it. it's so much more visual than trying to describe it with only labels that don't necessarily mean all that much.
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JillSter

Quote from: Kia on August 29, 2013, 02:03:49 PM
I don't really have anything to add since all these wonderful people have summed up everything I could have said, but a little redundancy never killed anyone.

Jillian I had almost the same experience as you; I thought I wanted to be a woman and all that jazz, but what I really wanted was to have a female body. And my further explorations have revealed that I do kind of want to be woman, but I wouldn't really consider that I am one it seems to me like trading one ill fitting suit for another. I'm an individual and I think my being is a bit bigger than man or woman, than all the labels we have; I think we're all bigger than the words we use to describe ourselves.

That is very similar to my experience. I think in my case it's trading one ill-fitting role for another. I haven't tried the female body yet, so I can't say if it'll fit or not. I have a feeling the estrogen will feel right in how it makes me think and feel. I'm basing this on the fact that the testosterone does not! I likened it (HRT) to draining an infected wound and cleansing it, when I talked to my gender therapist for the first time yesterday. Although all this stuff was on my mind and my guard was up, so it was overall a strange, not-so-productive first session. But there will be others. :)

Quote from: Kia on August 29, 2013, 02:03:49 PM
Language is by it's nature limited and pragmatic; we wouldn't have invented poetry if it wasn't. It falls short in those moments where we try to grasp and describe the beautifully complex experiences of being a human being and being alive. Some days if you ask me I'm not even non-binary, most days I'm just me. Words are fun especially labels; I like to think up new ways to describe my gender just because I like to imagine people's reactions if I ever decided to tell anyone further than "I'm trans*".

Language is fun! I love learning new words and weaving them into my vocabulary. I *try* to write poetry, but I suck at it. But it's still fun! :D

I was toying with gender+sexuality descriptions the other day. I came up with Androfemme MtX Transbian. Fun with labels. ;D

Quote from: Taka on August 29, 2013, 03:03:35 PM
there's that one dimensional line that goes
m –––––––––– a ––––––––––– f
way too simple

I love the color concept, and I saw the cone on another thread. That's a really good way to visualize it!

You gave me a moment of inspiration and I started writing it up, but it may need its own thread. It's kinda, uh... aw, wth.

I'll at least give it its own post. Sorry to double post twice in one thread. ;) (Kia saved me!)
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Kia

That's a good one! i like MtX, it sounds like an extreme sport. :laugh:

I also plan to start HRT, by the end of this year if I'm lucky, because I want a more female body but in my mind it will be my body not a female body. For instance I will never menstruate but I can live with that compared to the constant testosterone poisoning I suffer from.

QuoteI *try* to write poetry, but I suck at it. But it's still fun! :D

that's the good stuff, the best poetry is bad poetry. I've been getting into sound poetry lately because it's fun and no words needed!
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JillSter

Quote from: Taka on August 29, 2013, 03:03:35 PM
it took me quite a while to visualize it myself. there's that one dimensional line that goes
m –––––––––– a ––––––––––– f
way too simple, my own gender isn't represented there at all.

and then there is this two dimensional spectrum that can blend the colors a lot, but is still usually not more of a blend than a full color circle at best, and just blue and red with some purple in between and maybe a little fade to white at the worse end of that scale. they still don't quite get there, since the world i know is at least three dimensional. if it's not, how is something supposed to be fluid in between...

Hmm. This might be overthinking it, but...

Why limit it to three dimensions? If your identity and gender expression change over time it's at least four dimensional. But the fourth is too linear.

Bear with me here...

The fourth dimension is pretty much what we imagine when we think of time: a linear timeline. Past --> Present --> Future.

Five dimensional spacetime is essentially to time what the third dimension is to space. Depth of time, so to speak.

When not observed, a particle exists in a superposition of all its potential points in space simultaneously. But when it's observed it's always in a fixed position in space. It's in a single position because, once observed or measured, its state is no longer simply potential. It goes from possibly anywhere to ---> right here <--- because you observed it.

Everything, past and future, already potentially exists and the present is basically an observation of time. Each moment, as we percieve it, fixes our position in spacetime because we are "observing" it by simply existing within it.

Our potential states are determined not only by the past, but by the future as well. What you do in the future can affect what happens in the present! Pretty cool, huh? :D

Each new fixed position basically branches off into another potential universe; or the sixth dimension of the universe. I assume they all exist within the same "space" for lack of a better way to imagine it.

Which means the people you knew five minutes ago are not the same people you know now. And when you're done reading this sentence, those people will be gone too. We're ever-shifting and sliding in and out of existence as we know it. But we are each essentially the center of the universe, as it is our own experience of the universe that determines which "phase" (again, for lack of clarity) we'll end up in at any given moment. Not that it matters, because it all seems the same to us anyway.

Okay, now here's my point...

If gender is everchanging (which would be logical to assume given every other aspect of the human mind is everchanging) then describing it in terms of three dimensional space is too limiting. Our gender identity changes and reshapes us over time in a very fundamental way. (Moreso for some than for others.)

The potential exists at any given point for your identity to be affected by your experiences, choices, or even just things you think about. This potentiality becomes fixed at the moment you "observe it," ie. live it. And due to its nature, that sends you down yet another path through the fabric of whatever the hell we exist within -- and the people you interact with are no longer the same in mind, body or otherwise (including gender) because they too have travelled their own path, which is almost certainly not the same as yours. Though their interaction with you (changed as you both are) affects the course of development of your identity, of which gender is a fundamental factor.

So, gender has to be at least six dimensional to accurately visualize it.

But then again, I probably have no idea wtf I'm talking about. :P



(Edit: I feel like I should point out that I was half-kidding. Sort of intentionally overthinking it. But it was just so much fun to think about, I couldn't help but share! But IDK, maybe there is something to it?)
  •  

MadeleineG

Labels, shabels.  8)

Philosophically, I identify genderqueer. Emotionally, I identify female.

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Keaira

It can be a bit of a headtrip trying to figure out who you are. Like, I was born male, but I identify as female, but, im not particularly feminine and feel more on the masculine side of feminine. 
  •  

MadeleineG

Quote from: Keaira on August 29, 2013, 06:38:03 PM
...I identify as female, but, im not particularly feminine and feel more on the masculine side of feminine.

That's where I fully plan to end up. I've come to think of myself as a 40-yard line MtF.

Maddy
  •  

JillSter

Quote from: Keaira on August 29, 2013, 06:38:03 PM
...I identify as female, but, im not particularly feminine and feel more on the masculine side of feminine.
Quote from: Fairy Princess with a Death Ray on August 29, 2013, 06:41:15 PM
That's where I fully plan to end up. I've come to think of myself as a 40-yard line MtF.

"The masculine side of feminine" is the sexiest side. ;)
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