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Coming to terms with my identity.

Started by MaximmusFlavius, September 24, 2013, 05:49:12 PM

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MaximmusFlavius

When I first started to realise I was trans I struggled a lot with understanding why. As I saw it, I was a completely 'normal' female, physiologically, yet something was telling me otherwise. I thought (and still do), that my brain is wrong, not my body. This is very much my personal opinion that applies only to myself. As far as I could tell, there was nothing wrong with my body anatomy wise. I went through development as any female-bodied person would; yet my mind was telling me something different. I used to question myself, all the time. I couldn't justify my feelings to myself, there was no definite answer as to why my mind was telling me something different (bearing in mind I am a geneticist therefore the simple explanation of 'something went wrong in the womb' doesn't really cut it for me). I admit I never really bothered to look into all the research into why being trans may occur, because I know there is no definitive answer. I struggled so much in trying to understand the incongruence between my brain and body, and this is what took me so long to come out. I still don't understand and there is still no answer, the difference is I now accepted that's just how it is. Even though I believe my brain is wrong for my body, not my body is wrong for my brain, I knew the only way of alleviating any of the dysphoria and anxiety and stress etc was to medically transition.

Even when I had made that decision and knew I no longer had any doubts (this was about 2 yrs ago, after 2 years of questioning and basically hating myself for being trans), I still had worries. Why would anyone hire a trans person? Why would anyone fall in love or even be remotely interested in a trans person? What exactly is the point of my life? Will I ever have a happy life, free from all of this? These were all question I used to ask myself all the time. I was never suicidal, but I did question my place in the universe a lot. None of this was helped by the screw ups and delays that meant I have only just recently started hormones. But despite the difficulties of those years, I am a much stronger, mature, self aware person because of it. I am almost tempted to say I'm glad I went through all of that, because it made me into who I am now.

Despite all these worries, someone did hire me, back when I was still pre-t. They and everyone I work with know me as male but also know a bit about my past as I work in the same building I used to work in before I came out. I am much more open than I thought I would be. I have had a relationship, although it didn't end well, and everyone (bar family) who I've come out to has basically responded along the lines of 'and, I should care because?', but the good version!! As in they saw it as no big deal and immediately switched names and pronouns etc.

Basically, I just wanted to share some of the thoughts I had and still have and how things have or haven't changed over the years. I know my opinion of being trans is very different than for most people as I still believe my mind is wrong, but I know it's biological and the only way to deal with it is to change my body to match. I would like to stress this opinion applies only to me and how I see myself.






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Chaos

I noticed no one had commented and i wanted to share my experience with you and hope that maybe it can help you some how.When i was born there was an accident that paralyzed me on my right side.Body function returned but that side of my brain took permanent damage.I was raised in a very religious conservative household and spent most of my life being sheltered from everything.Was never told about the birds and the bees,female things,love-nothing.You can imagine my first M time when i ran out screaming,terrified to find myself a mess and begging my mother for help.When i hit high school and puberty,i suddenly hit a deep depression and with no reasons why.I spent my time alone,didnt make friends.woman didnt see me as equal and i didnt understand why.i felt comfortable around men and this led females to hate me more,thinking i was doing something wrong.Men also were distant from me because i wasnt their idea of a beautiful woman but i did become a sex object.I took punch after punch and from both sides,this didnt include the daily punchs from my family on how i should dress,talk,who i should be friends with,what i should listen to.My head was filled with many negative things and this made the depression even worse.I was attracted to woman and not men and i dated them only because it was *the right thing to do* inside i was compressing this feeling and it drove me into many bad addictions after high school.It was as if after puberty,my life took a nose dive and never stopped.Due to my ignorance and what was put into my head,i even hated on one woman who i used to know-she came out as transsexual.I was living proof that hatred was nothing more then ignorance.I remember as a kid standing up and trying to use the bathroom,even things i did and said.i didnt play with my own toys and i hated the clothes i was forced to wear.dresses and things like this.I lived life truely like an empty shell and what i mean is,i found myself most of the time just sitting and staring off into space.i had lost all connection with myself and everything around me.Or i spent my time on drugs/drinking and this whole time,still not knowing why.in my late 20s i had met and dated my first girlfriend.she came to live with me and even though i didnt know why,i felt completely at home with her and not as if i was a lesbian either.i couldnt explain it.The way we made love,the way we talked.she was going to take my last name if we married.The way i sit and even after ALL my life of being taught to cross my legs,i would still sit like a man and did it mindlessly.After she left,i broke in many ways and seemed to have again lost that connected to who i was inside.I bring up the brain part because with it,i become a more emotional person.Like for example they say *if you lose one sense,the rest get stronger* i wasnt able to work at all and am on disability and also on meds for anxiety.and even tho i dont state ALOT of the very cruel and mean things i have been through,they taught me alot and when i hit my 30s and found out exactly what i had been feeling,it was like i did a 360.The depression left almost instantly and i KNEW who i was right then and there.I have lost family,friends and took so much during my time of transition but i wouldnt change it for the world.not only does it prove who loves you unconditionally but it also makes us a better person.I finally became me and many scars had healed even if some still remain.All that will ever matter is the insight you have on yourself and who you are.i found my true self and im so happy i did.it felt like a weight had left my shoulders and back,that kept me in the pits my entire life.I wish you luck and no matter what happens,be true to yourself.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
  •  

A

Quote from: MaximmusFlavius on September 24, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
When I first started to realise I was trans I struggled a lot with understanding why. As I saw it, I was a completely 'normal' female, physiologically, yet something was telling me otherwise. I thought (and still do), that my brain is wrong, not my body. This is very much my personal opinion that applies only to myself. As far as I could tell, there was nothing wrong with my body anatomy wise. I went through development as any female-bodied person would; yet my mind was telling me something different. I used to question myself, all the time. I couldn't justify my feelings to myself, there was no definite answer as to why my mind was telling me something different (bearing in mind I am a geneticist therefore the simple explanation of 'something went wrong in the womb' doesn't really cut it for me). I admit I never really bothered to look into all the research into why being trans may occur, because I know there is no definitive answer. I struggled so much in trying to understand the incongruence between my brain and body, and this is what took me so long to come out. I still don't understand and there is still no answer, the difference is I now accepted that's just how it is. Even though I believe my brain is wrong for my body, not my body is wrong for my brain, I knew the only way of alleviating any of the dysphoria and anxiety and stress etc was to medically transition.

Well technically it is the brain that's wrong. The whole body developed according to the genes, normally, but something went wrong when it was time for the brain to have its gender differenciation, which led it to develop in a more male way, with what it obviously implies.

Thing is, the brain is the only part of the body that can be said to be "you". Despite it only being a small part of the body, the fact that your personality, your consciousness, you, resides there makes it take absolute priority over the rest. Trying to change the brain's gender and personality (if it were even possible) would be highly unethical and would possibly make it questionable whether you are still you. Therefore no matter how illogical it may seem when you look at it, the only way to treat a trans person is to alter the whole body to accommodate the little part of it that is the brain.

If you're interested in the science behind being trans, I recommend reading through this blog that I discovered two days ago. It's really interesting. (Warning: several trans people will hate me for posting this because they hate the theory, no matter how true it's gradually being proven.)

Quote from: MaximmusFlavius on September 24, 2013, 05:49:12 PM
Why would anyone fall in love or even be remotely interested in a trans person?

I know you're probably not very worried about this anymore now, but I just felt like telling you. I'm presently very deeply in love with a trans guy, more so than I have ever been, and I very much hope that he'll be my boyfriend eventually.

There is one good thing about a guy being trans: they weren't raised as males (well probably). That implies that they are unlikely to have the stereotypical "bad stuff" about being male, that in fact comes mostly from the upbringing, like never wanting to show their emotions or talk about others', for instance. That's a big advantage compared to other guys (which I'll admit are far from all displaying every bad side of being male).

Also, uhm. Have to say that in average, FTMs tend to end up very sexy.
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chuck

Quote from: A on September 25, 2013, 02:48:53 AM
Well technically it is the brain that's wrong. The whole body developed according to the genes, normally, but something went wrong when it was time for the brain to have its gender differenciation, which led it to develop in a more male way, with what it obviously implies.

Thing is, the brain is the only part of the body that can be said to be "you". Despite it only being a small part of the body, the fact that your personality, your consciousness, you, resides there makes it take absolute priority over the rest. Trying to change the brain's gender and personality (if it were even possible) would be highly unethical and would possibly make it questionable whether you are still you. Therefore no matter how illogical it may seem when you look at it, the only way to treat a trans person is to alter the whole body to accommodate the little part of it that is the brain.

If you're interested in the science behind being trans, I recommend reading through this blog that I discovered two days ago. It's really interesting. (Warning: several trans people will hate me for posting this because they hate the theory, no matter how true it's gradually being proven.)

I know you're probably not very worried about this anymore now, but I just felt like telling you. I'm presently very deeply in love with a trans guy, more so than I have ever been, and I very much hope that he'll be my boyfriend eventually.

There is one good thing about a guy being trans: they weren't raised as males (well probably). That implies that they are unlikely to have the stereotypical "bad stuff" about being male, that in fact comes mostly from the upbringing, like never wanting to show their emotions or talk about others', for instance. That's a big advantage compared to other guys (which I'll admit are far from all displaying every bad side of being male).

Also, uhm. Have to say that in average, FTMs tend to end up very sexy.

Just for the record, I completely disagree that the brain is the thing went wrong. And no, a wordpress blog article will not change my mind. Is in intersexed folks, is it also their brain? I mean shouldnt their brains develope to accept the ambiguous nature of their genitals? Rather than have a mind that sides with one gender or the other. And not I am not a "trans person" "hating on you" I dont id as trans and I dont hate you for having an opinion.   

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aleon515

I couldn't really read the blog, as it used the word " ->-bleeped-<-" which I think is sexist. I mean maybe the blog wasn't, I just couldn't read it. From what I have read there are biological reasons that people are trans. The most common one is that there are hormonal "baths" that the fetus gets.

I don't actually think there is anything wrong with me. I know not everyone shares this view. I don't think it is convenient. I am on the autism spectrum and don't actually think there is anything wrong with that either. But it's not convenient either. Doesn't mean that there isn't a reason for it. But just that the biological world is very diverse and that nature seems to like this a lot (human society perhaps not so much). FWIW, though, I don't think of brain and body as separate things. Is this is a brain thing or body thing, I think the answer is YES.

I do ID as trans. But other people here do not. And I sort of like that too. I would say that I am not as binary as some guys here seem to be either. And that's okay with me either.


--Jay
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MaximmusFlavius

Part of the reason why I posted this was because my opinion of my 'transness' was different to what the general consensus was, even on here (bearing in mind this was 3/4 years ago. I was a long time lurker :p) Now there seems to be more different opinions as of course everyone's opinion differs.

Yes there is some scientific evidence that trans peoples brains are different from their assigned-at-birth gender. There is however no know mechanism as to how this occurs. What makes one part of the body one gender and the other another? A very interesting question that will take a loooong time to be answered. I am always very sceptical and cautious of trying to explain being trans using science because there is not the knowledge there.

One of the big things I still have problems with is explaining to people how I know. I just do!! I hate the phrase 'born in the wrong body', even though it is a fairly simple explanation. In most cases I am the only trans person people know, so by default am representing the trans community, so don't want to give my opinion because it is so different and can be controversial.

As for just accepting and getting on with life, I am a firm believer in identifying what you can change and what you can't. Sure, have a quick wallow in the things you can't change, then get on and do everything you can do. People who complain and focus on everything beyond their control annoy the hell out of me (my ex basically). That's all I'll say on that or else a long rant will follow.....

What I did want to hear was how other people viewed being trans and how they dealt with explaining to themselves and other people. I have come to terms with everything and have a pretty sweet life at the minute, even though things are far from perfect (ie I haven't had top surgery which I desperately want, I will always have my trans history etc).






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A

Quote from: chuck on September 25, 2013, 10:34:38 AM
Just for the record, I completely disagree that the brain is the thing went wrong. And no, a wordpress blog article will not change my mind. Is in intersexed folks, is it also their brain? I mean shouldnt their brains develope to accept the ambiguous nature of their genitals? Rather than have a mind that sides with one gender or the other. And not I am not a "trans person" "hating on you" I dont id as trans and I dont hate you for having an opinion.
Uhm, well, if you feel like reading through it again, you'll find that while it's a Wordpress article she usually has pretty strong references. For example brain scan analyses about pre-HRT MTF brains being feminized compared to control males and pre-HRT FTM brains being masculinized compared to control females. Though of course, the evidence is still not rock-hard and such explanations aren't true facts yet. But apparently scientific studies are overwhelmingly adding weight to them all the time. Anyway I'm not here to debate and I don't like debate. Just putting those things your way, in case it interests you.

Quote from: aleon515 on September 25, 2013, 12:54:38 PM
I couldn't really read the blog, as it used the word " ->-bleeped-<-" which I think is sexist. I mean maybe the blog wasn't, I just couldn't read it. From what I have read there are biological reasons that people are trans. The most common one is that there are hormonal "baths" that the fetus gets.

Yeah, gotta agree with you on the terms. The blog's author says somewhere that they're not her favourite at all either but she uses them because they're what the scientists use, and she judged that if she was gonna go by a standard for her publications, it might as well be the same as what the studies she uses as references use. It's shocking at first but if you read through it you realize that it's a harsh term but there's a reason behind it. And you know how doctors, scientists, all those tend to be like. They're not gonna care much about being harsh if they feel it's going to give them the most accurate words.

Anyway, I'm not here to preach about stuff. So yeah, I do think the content is true and very interesting, but I don't have any special drive to make y'all think like me.
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spacerace

I've trotted out the "there is physical evidence our brains match up with cis males in certain gendered areas" before to explain myself.

It was easy to use as a way to convince someone important to me that being trans was not just something wrong with me mentally. I showed him some medical research that has been done. He read it, and it seemed to help him get a better grasp on it.

I am aware this was a cop out in some ways, but it worked.

Who knows what happens in our bodies to key us in to the fact we are another gender. Probably not just what is in our brains. Our bodies are a series of interconnected systems built upon a genetic blueprint. Then, we go through experiences which can trigger different things in our brains, which in turn affect our bodies. Narrowing it down to just one reason will likely always be impossible, even they locate some sort of 'trans gene." For example, if someone who ID's as trans (or as male but FAAB, etc) did not have that gene, I doubt anyone on this forum would deny them their gender ID even without the gene.


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A

Yeah, no, right now the research is only for purposes of "it's interesting", or "oh, that makes sense actually". Before it's actually used as anything remotely close to a diagnosis tool, they'll have made sure that it's impossible that this key to being trans, the "trans gene", would not appear in anyone who is trans.

They've made the mistake of denying treatment to those who their current theory didn't acknowledge as "real" transsexuals once. They saw the repercussions. I think we can safely assume them to be scared to death of causing such a catastrophe again.
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
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MaximmusFlavius

Quote from: spacerace on September 25, 2013, 05:29:29 PM

Who knows what happens in our bodies to key us in to the fact we are another gender. Probably not just what is in our brains. Our bodies are a series of interconnected systems built upon a genetic blueprint. Then, we go through experiences which can trigger different things in our brains, which in turn affect our bodies. Narrowing it down to just one reason will likely always be impossible, even they locate some sort of 'trans gene." For example, if someone who ID's as trans (or as male but FAAB, etc) did not have that gene, I doubt anyone on this forum would deny them their gender ID even without the gene.




Very true. Human biology is incredibly complicated, especially when applied to the brain. As much as I believe in genetics as the foundation of all biology, I would be incredibly surprised if only one gene was shown to cause people to be trans.






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Chaos

Quote from: broken. on September 25, 2013, 01:15:34 PM
I just have to kind of agree with this and say you have to be careful wading into brain-ville. A lot of trans people say it's all about the brain, I think it's easier because that can't really be tested. But then, are those people gonna have a crisis when brain research potentially comes out showing that they have mostly the brain structure of their birth sex?

I don't think it's really about the brain in most cases, I think it's just about how you want to live and there are infinite reasons for that, doesn't make it less legitimate if it's just simply what you want. People seem almost afraid to have to just say "it's what I want for me" but I think eventually you do have to make peace with that and not have your feelings be contingent on whether or not science will verify them for you. Honestly I think it's a bad precedent for trans peopl to act like science is in their back pocket, guiding their transition, because all the time studies are coming out that show behavior, interests, sexuality, change very predictably in a large number of people with specific hormonal exposure at specific times in life, and usually human bodies are pretty good at getting the sex-appropriate hormonal exposure.

I definitely think that what's important is just how you feel... nobody has the right to deny someone how they feel and who they want to be. That's the important justification. I'm glad that OP at least could come a little more to terms with that, and frankly I'm in about the same place right now so I'm only saying what I need to hear...

Im sorry i have to respectfully disagree.As my first post,which im sure you didnt read,Someone like me did not live how *they wanted too* i didnt wake up one day and say *i think i want to live as a man and be a man* and then started transition.How can an ignorant brain and i mean completely,be so tormented without the truth and then set at peace when it had such? its true that there is not enough evidence to prove that its a brain *defect* but for ME,i was living proof.They say that the mind is influenced by the things that it takes in.for example,they say that most woman get their idea of beauty from the media/society *and this is true* but what about someone who has never seen this from the media/society? what if one had no idea and only acted in how they were taught religiously? to put it even more bluntly.How can anyone expect someone who lived in a box to pop out and know it all and who has seen it all? i WAS the true term *innocent* until i was 17 years old and even well after as i continued to learn.Because of my disability,my parents kept an even tighter grip on me then even most normal religious house holds.If *i wanted to live* how i seen fit,i would have found the truth LONG before 30,transitioned and found peace MUCH sooner and would have stopped the beatings and so much more.but i can say,it is NOW what i will have as being me,is much bigger then anything.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
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Chaos

For those seeking a good read and wish to look into the brain,i will post this and maybe it will answer questions or raise more.Never know.And to point out,in this when it states *female/male controls* its their word for *Cis* none trans.

Brain structure[edit source]
In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[20]
In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[21]
In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[22]
In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[24]
In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[25]
While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.
However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[26]
An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[27]
Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006), studied the gross brain volume of subjects undergoing hormone treatment. They discovered that whole brain volume for subjects changes toward the size of the opposite reproductive sex during hormone treatment. The conclusion of the study was, "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."[28]
All Thing's Come With A Price...
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aleon515

Quote from: spacerace on September 25, 2013, 05:29:29 PM
I've trotted out the "there is physical evidence our brains match up with cis males in certain gendered areas" before to explain myself.

It was easy to use as a way to convince someone important to me that being trans was not just something wrong with me mentally. I showed him some medical research that has been done. He read it, and it seemed to help him get a better grasp on it.

I am aware this was a cop out in some ways, but it worked.

Who knows what happens in our bodies to key us in to the fact we are another gender. Probably not just what is in our brains. Our bodies are a series of interconnected systems built upon a genetic blueprint. Then, we go through experiences which can trigger different things in our brains, which in turn affect our bodies. Narrowing it down to just one reason will likely always be impossible, even they locate some sort of 'trans gene." For example, if someone who ID's as trans (or as male but FAAB, etc) did not have that gene, I doubt anyone on this forum would deny them their gender ID even without the gene.


I actually wonder sometimes, as I am lucky enough to have met MANY trans guys, if some of us have different wiring than others of us. And that if that might partially explain some differences in identity. I don't want to go for the brain is destiny thing, but there is a lot of that that I can't argue with. For instance, are people who identify as MALE (don't give me that trans thing, I'm MALE) different in some way than people who have a more fluid or non-binary experience. Obviously the whole thing of looking for a single gene or whatever is problematic, not so much in a group like this, as we wouldn't care, but for medical treatment, if they could find a gene (or a blood marker, or whatever) and it wouldn't find 100% of trans guys. That would be as problematic as the way they figure thing now.

@A-Yeah I know the gal didn't agree with the terms. But the way to change language is not to keep using it. Terms like  ->-bleeped-<- serves 0% purpose. It's a way of dissing certain trans women on the basis of how they experience things. It would be like if I used the "N" or "T" word and said, well "everyone understands this".

The whole idea whether this is a "mental thing" is loaded. I think talking about brain chemistry makes more sense. Brain and body chemistry are innately tied and only Westerners do really separate them so much, as if they are different things.



--Jay
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A

I have no idea what the N and T words are supposed to be. (I hate it when someone says "the <enter random letter here> word" and expect me to understand - I feel stupid. xD)

Anyway, uhm... Well  ->-bleeped-<- is a term very much disliked by transsexuals because of the uproar Ray Blanchard's research caused and the various bad implications it had (both in medical professionals, who mistakingly took autogynephilic MTFs as "not real transsexuals" rather than "a different kind of transsexual", and in trans people themselves, who saw it as misogynistic without looking at it in detail and denied its existence), but it's nevertheless coherent with what scientific findings suggest, for there being two kinds of transsexuals:

-"Homosexual transsexuals", transsexuals who, in regards to their birth sex, are exclusively or primarily attracted to the same sex (post transition those would be MTFs who are (or mostly are) into guys and FTMs who are (or mostly are) into girls). The need leading to transition, in those, tends to rely much on a reasoned decision about their cross-gendered personality and behaviour not allowing them to have a normal and fulfilling life as their birth gender.

Those tend to transition young or not transition at all because of their strong drive to have a normal life. If you've set your mind and found a place in life where you can be happy with being a very butch woman or a very feminine man, then you should be satisfied, and changing your mind at 40 years old is counter-productive, both because you'll pass as the target gender less easily and because you've had the time to establish yourself a life that would be hard to make "normal" if you threw everything into chaos by transitioning.

In that sense, many gay men and lesbian women could perhaps be described as having roughly the same problem as "homosexual transsexuals", in that their cross-gendered personalities/behaviours may make life more difficult for them, in a milder form. Oversimplifying this could result in "transsexuals of that type are so gay/butch that they're girls/guys", which isn't all that false.

-"Autogynephilic transsexuals" (in FTMs, there's "autoandrophilic", but it's still just a hypothesis due to how they rarely if ever showed up in research and lack of research altogether, and the differences that seem to appear between MTFs who are into girls and FTMs who are into guys suggest that there might be another mechanism involved). I'm going to refer to MTFs only since as I said FTMs are a cloudy matter on this point. Those are MTFs who are only, or mostly, into women, and whose reason to transition tends to rely on an internal desire to have the body of a woman.

The majority of patients in this category admitted to feeling aroused in some way at the thought of being a naked woman alone on a bed and/or by wearing female clothes or undergarments. That arousal can be conscious or not, and it can also be very mild, in that it genuinely doesn't really feel like arousal to the trans person. And those who did not and accepted to undergo a test had measurable arousal while listening to a story about crossdressing.

From what stems in an unusual sexuality (and for the majority of those who have that unusual sexuality, it will stay that way and they won't be transsexuals at all - think heterosexual ->-bleeped-<-), gender dysphoria appears and the problem becomes deeper, and the will to transition can become very strong. Autogynephilic transsexuals, although they can transition young, tend to be much older when they transition. To them passing and having a normal life tends to be much less important than "feeling like a woman".

In the past, just because their transsexualism was rooted in a sexual problem, professionals would deny those individuals transition (while it's actually just as indicated for them as for the other type as far as I know). Which led them to lie to match up their life stories to those of the "homosexual" type as much as possible. And then big bad stuff happened. Because while both types can benefit from transition, they're not the same and they don't really need the same kind of help in various fields.

For example, the post-operative regret rate in this group is higher than in the other. The likely reason is that since they all needed to lie and "embellish" their stories to receive the treatment they wanted, both transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s who weren't transsexuals at all ended up getting a surgery.

Now no one needs to lie to get treatment, but there are still some ->-bleeped-<- (autogynephilic) trans women who do, out of fear of what was common practice just a decade or two ago, and out of shame of their unusual sexuality.

By the way, right now the system is vastly adjusted to the needs of ->-bleeped-<- transsexuals, for MTFs, because in Western countries, they're >80 % of the transsexuals seen in clinics. Since they, yes, ultimately need the same kind of treatment, but no, shouldn't really be treated the same, compared to HSTS ("homosexual" transsexuals), that causes trouble for the latter.

It doesn't help that they fear they'll be regarded as less "valid" if they accept the idea that they're not the same, which is not the case, and as such some (a minority, but a loud one - those are the ones who'll vehemently spread not disagreement but hate and accusations about the theory) will insist strongly that there is only one big group of transsexuals, because they feel the HSTS group, generally being younger and better passing, gives them validity. While actually the only thing that joins together those two groups of transsexuals are the treatment (HRT, SRS, etc.) indicated for them to feel better, being two entirely different issues that have very different origins.

(For FTMs, it's BELIEVED that the mechanisms and types are probably the same (mirrored), but 1. the equivalent of autogynephilic MTFs is for some reason very rare thus difficult to study, and 2. to begin with, FTMs have been studied less, not sure why. That the majority of FTMs are "homosexual transsexuals" appears relatively clear though.)

Whoa. I ended up giving a pretty big description of the theory compared to what I intended. Anyway, the short version is: there appear to be two very different types of MTF transsexuals, one of which is autogynephilic, and while they have nothing to do with each other in almost every way, neither is inferior, neither should be treated as less of a woman than the other, and HRT and SRS are indicated treatments in both.

So uhm yeah. The term  ->-bleeped-<- is hated, but there's hardly anything else to describe what studies show.
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spacerace

A, I think what you are saying in your post is interesting, and I too am quite intrigued by the research behind gender and sexuality.

However, I do think we need to be careful with statements like this:

Quote from: A on September 26, 2013, 01:48:40 PM

(For FTMs, it's BELIEVED that the mechanisms and types are probably the same (mirrored), but 1. the equivalent of autogynephilic MTFs is for some reason very rare thus difficult to study, and 2. to begin with, FTMs have been studied less, not sure why. That the majority of FTMs are "homosexual transsexuals" appears relatively clear though.)

In addition to the gross generalization of this statement and the limitations of both terms, any numbers collected from research on this point seem limited by sample size. You point out this yourself when you mention FTMs have been studied less.

Any research study that categorizes people as "homosexual transsexuals" is creating a definite bright line that just simply does not exist in this context.

Saying someone FAAB who is sexually attracted to women is a homosexual transsexual simultaneously denies identities and obscures subtleties, all for the simplicity of a category that is convenient for research and study. Someone may say it is necessary in order to move forward with research on the matter, but looking at it that way in even in a research context just means you are beginning with the wrong hypothesis in the first place.

I say this as someone who is absolutely a biological determinist.
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A

Yeah, well. I really don't like the terms myself. It's not cool at all to be told "hey, you're a girl and you're into men, but actually we're gonna say you're homosexual". But it's what is written in much of the research, so I sort of gave up going all "hey but that term is mean". :/ After all, I'm basically telling the other category of people to accept the term  ->-bleeped-<-, which they hate, so dunno, it'd feel kind of selfish of me to want a nicer term.
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spacerace

Quote from: A on September 26, 2013, 02:56:40 PM
After all, I'm basically telling the other category of people to accept the term  ->-bleeped-<-, which they hate, so dunno, it'd feel kind of selfish of me to want a nicer term.

I wasn't picking apart the term for its unpleasing semantics, but in terms of medical research. Studies that take this framework from the outset are testing the wrong variables.
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A

What do you mean? I'm not really following.
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spacerace

I mean that gender and sexuality are so complex biologically that assigning two categories to them for research purposes makes the statistics inaccurate overall.

For purely explanatory purposes to explain what I mean, we can over generalize and assign gender to be determined by hormone balance, brain structures and external sex. A study that uses a category of homosexual transsexual to label a FAAB who is attracted to women is only using external sex to call them a homosexual. External sex is just the physical appearance of genitalia, so in essence the study is not controlling for the other two factors at all.

It assumes a binary gender and binary sexuality, so it is flawed.





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spacerace

I am responding to my own post instead of editing, as I have been thinking about the right way to do a study of this sort and considering the possibility that comparing FAAB to FAAB to get sexuality data points may be the best we can get at this level of understanding of what it means to be a transsexual.

If we knew more, it would be an entirely different matter.

I still think the categories are generalizing in a way that distorts the data, to say nothing of a sample size that compares people who may actually have very complex sexuality and gender IDs. When you are comparing people who are potentially transsexual for any number of different reasons biologically, it becomes difficult to say something like FTMs are mostly 'homosexual' based on birth gender.

This is because you may be comparing X person who trans because of a genetic anamoly vs X person who was flooded with hormones in the womb vs X person who is gender queer but on the masculine spectrum but doesn't even know that yet when they are tested, etc. Once these factors come in to play, you really aren't comparing the same thing at all anymore and all you have is the gross generalization based on physical sex as I mentioned previously.




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