My relationship to my sex/gender

[Asche]

I ran across this post in the "30 day genderqueer challenge" thread that really sums up where I am now (assuming the author is saying what I think she's saying.)

If I hated the male parts of my body, I would consider transitioning more seriously. But  my dysphoria is mostly social - the people with whom I'm most comfortable see me as different from them. I'm preferring to try dealing with that in ways that don't require changing my body.

I'm anatomically male, don't feel especially female inside, but the people I relate to well (or even adequately) are all female.  Most men seem like an alien species to me.  Football; drinking; dominance games; "male bonding" -- they all turn out to be about as much fun as the stomach flu.  There are a few guys who I don't mind being around, but it's "not minding," it's not like I think of calling them when I want someone to talk to.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that women tend to be pretty wary of men (with reason, from what I hear), so I can't exactly relax and be all that comfortable around women, either.  It doesn't help that I'm not the most socially adept person in the world.  It's like I'm a suspicious foreigner in both camps.

[Jamie D]

It's like I'm a suspicious foreigner in both camps.

Welcome to my world, Asche.

I have said before, that "I can feel alone in a crowded room."

[Jessica Merriman]

It's like I'm a suspicious foreigner in both camps.

Welcome to my world, Asche.

I have said before, that "I can feel alone in a crowded room."

[Jessica Merriman]

Alone in a crowded room. I don't know if that is a plus or minus for us. I think it is more of a plus because we can evaluate both sides before making decisions due to the fact we don't owe allegiance to one side or another. Kind of interesting...

[Taka]

alone in a crowded room is lonely. but i can't just become one of either of them, i think. though i've noticed it's easier for me to get along with the guys who've sat down in a corner because the other ways of socializing don't appeal to them.

[Asche]

alone in a crowded room is lonely. but i can't just become one of either of them, i think.

I don't see how one could be anything but lonely in a crowded room.  How can you relate to a roomfull of people at once?  One-on-one is strenuous enough.

The only way I've been able to make any sense of how people can feel at home in a crowd is to figure they lose their psychic boundaries and become part of a hive mind, sort of like the Borg, only without the ability to think.  It's not something I'm able to do.  I wonder if this deficiency in me is related to the number of people in my family who seem to have Asperger Syndrom (my son was diagnosed with it, and there are several people in my generation and my parents' who are an awful lot like him.)  Maybe we (in my family) all have AS to a greater or lesser extent, but it's subclinical for most of us.  (OT: I've never watched The Big Bang Theory, but I hate it, just from seeing the 30-second previews -- with the sound off.)

Oddly, I can lose my boundaries when doing things like making music or dancing (but only if it's structured, so I don't have to think) or doing mathematics or programming.

i've noticed it's easier for me to get along with the guys who've sat down in a corner because the other ways of socializing don't appeal to them.

Sometimes this happens to me.  Usually, the crowd is too distracting (and noisy!) to actually relate to anyone, no matter how much you both might like to.  It's hard to engage emotionally if you have to shout and repeat everything for the other person to hear what you're saying.

[Taka]

The only way I've been able to make any sense of how people can feel at home in a crowd is to figure they lose their psychic boundaries and become part of a hive mind, sort of like the Borg, only without the ability to think.  It's not something I'm able to do.  I wonder if this deficiency in me is related to the number of people in my family who seem to have Asperger Syndrom (my son was diagnosed with it, and there are several people in my generation and my parents' who are an awful lot like him.)  Maybe we (in my family) all have AS to a greater or lesser extent, but it's subclinical for most of us.  (OT: I've never watched The Big Bang Theory, but I hate it, just from seeing the 30-second previews -- with the sound off.)

(what's the big bang theory...? other than the theory itself, that is.)
i have no idea whether as would have anything to do with it. there's none of it in my family, i think. or maybe my brother actually is closer to that but nobody really tested him for it. i'm more interested in natural language syntax, which puts my nerd level even above that of math nerds and programmers. maybe there is some kind of effect that puts us outside the natural human pack mentality.

[Asche]

(what's the big bang theory...? other than the theory itself, that is.)

TV situation comedy.  It often runs right after The Simpsons, which I often watch to unwind after work.  Based on the previews and what I've read, the plots apparently revolve around the (male) main characters' social incompetence, which is played for laughs.  One of the main characters, Sheldon Cooper, is widely assumed to have Asperger Syndrome (AS).

i have no idea whether as would have anything to do with it. there's none of it in my family, i think. or maybe my brother actually is closer to that but nobody really tested him for it.

FWIW, AS was only added to the DSM in DSM-IV, so unless someone was tested recently, they wouldn't get the diagnosis.  Before then, the diagnosis was autism, which people were reluctant to give unless someone was pretty severely impaired.

Also, in the right environment, "Aspies" (people with Asperger Syndrome) are perfectly functional, though perhaps seen as a little stiff or odd.  My father and father-in-law managed fine because they worked in technical areas and they were in a social class and generation where there were explicit rules and you only really needed to learn the rules and follow them in order to pass for normal and for your life (school, degree, career, wife & family, etc.) to be taken care of.

BTW, my impression is that most people who are labelled (or label themselves) as Aspie have not actually been diagnosed by someone who is competent to do so.  It's a subtle diagnosis, since it involves aspects of brain functioning that most people aren't even aware exists.  It is not the same as social awkwardness, and in fact many Aspies do not come across as socially awkward (because they've found work-arounds.)  You need to find someone who specializes in differential diagnosis or who has specialized in ASD (autistic spectrum disorders.)  And is competent, of course.

[Taka]

yeah, i'm aware of those things. i first thought that there are none in my family who has as, but then i remembered this brother of mine who isn't only socially awkward, but also tried to use math for building a ginger bread house, and tends to overthink things in a way that "normal" people simply don't do. we didn't have an unlimited amount of dough when doing this, so he was convinced i'd fail when i just started drawing on eye measure instead of relying on numbers. based on this and many other observations, i suddenly thought that i can't simply rule out the possibility.

[Gewaltraud]

I feel completely detached from my sex/gender. Though it's vaguely apathetic, it tends to lean more on the "disgust" end of things when genitalia is in the spotlight. I still identify as female, but I'm becoming more and more disgusted with having female genitalia (I don't want male genitalia either, mind you).

On top of the disgust for genitalia, I've identified as lesbian all my life, though I've technically been more on the asexual side of things. I find females attractive but don't necessarily want to bang them. So I'm either asexual or have a dead libido. Somethin' like that.

[Confused_Katie]

Gewaltraud, we must be kindred spirits, because what you described is EXACTLY how I feel. Sex of any kind is a total 'meh' feeling for me. Most of the time it just seems like more effort than it's worth. That, and it's messy.

I too find myself relating more to people of opposite gender (in my case, males). I was born female, but I'd like to be percieved as male since I feel more masculine than feminine. However, it's not terribly bothersome when I'm identified as female; only if I am treated differently because I am female does it bother me (which I feel happens a lot, unfortunately). All in all, I just don't seem to fit with either group.

Still working on trying to understand it all and find some balance.

[Lo]

Sex is alright stuff to me. Fun once in a while, but as a kinkster, I'm generally happier with sexual servicing in exchange for a good flogging session. Genital stimulation is a crapshoot for me and I can usually take it or leave it.

I like the pain because it transcends anything even remotely resembling gender or gendered expectations. If I'm getting my thighs flogged, it doesn't matter what's between them, doesn't matter what's on my chest. The areas being hit would be the same, the sensation would be the same, the welts and bruising would be the same, no matter what my body looked like or what gender I identified as. Pain is a lowest common denominator and I love that.

I don't have a gender, so there's nothing for me to feel distanced from. I do have a sense of an inner bodily/mental identity, though it doesn't feel like a gender because it's more to do with how I see the world and do relationships than it is something completely internal. But it does have a lot to do with why masochism feels so right and why I feel "aligned" when I hand power over to the hubs. The only way to talk about it in any way that'll do the feeling justice is with a bunch of poetics, so I'll spare you and trust that you all might have a barest understanding what I"m talking about. :B

[Gewaltraud]

Gewaltraud, we must be kindred spirits, because what you described is EXACTLY how I feel. Sex of any kind is a total 'meh' feeling for me. Most of the time it just seems like more effort than it's worth. That, and it's messy.

I too find myself relating more to people of opposite gender (in my case, males). I was born female, but I'd like to be percieved as male since I feel more masculine than feminine. However, it's not terribly bothersome when I'm identified as female; only if I am treated differently because I am female does it bother me (which I feel happens a lot, unfortunately). All in all, I just don't seem to fit with either group.

Meh, indeed! If I weren't married and had no sexual obligations, I'd probably be living like a nun. Even when I try to put in effort, it becomes really exhausting really fast and I get next to nothing out of it; if I had it my way, I would pleasure my wife and keep myself out of it, but she doesn't like it if she can't touch me, too. Dilemmas, dilemmas.

I don't relate to anyone of any gender and I'll be so open and daringly sexist to say I'm usually very put off by males and tend to keep to females, if anyone at all. I can count my IRL friends on one hand and still have enough fingers left (with my other hand) to be able to wash the dishes without breaking anything. Luckily, the people I associate myself with on a friendly basis (usually friends of my wife's) are super open-minded and we talk more about music, films or other people and less about things that isolate one from the other. I take my sex and confusion talk either to the internet or to my best friend, who still lives in the States, so we technically also communicate via internet.

[Kaelin]

In those times I feel like I'm beginning to relate to a specific gender, I typically wind up with a counterexample episode.  I think I realized that my "relating to a gender" typically came down to weather my present activity/interest/expression/philosophy happened to be gender-typed that one way or another.  Unsurprisingly, I tend to relate better with men in sports and women with dresses.

[Asche]

I wouldn't describe myself as asexual.  I'm heterosexual.  But what I like is a lot more like what women supposedly prefer.

For one thing, I can't even begin to get in the mood unless I'm with someone I really trust and feel safe with.  And to get into the mood, I need lots of cuddling and what my German girlfriends used to call "Zaertlichkeiten" (lit.: "gentlenesses," actually gentle stroking, kissing, etc.)  I'm the opposite of "wham, bam, thank you ma'am."(*)  If I had to choose between what people usually mean by sex -- "the act" -- and cuddling and the physical and verbal gestures of caring and intimacy, I'd choose the latter without having to even think about it.

I simply cannot force myself to play the role that men are expected to play in heterosexual courtship: the whole being the aggressor, taking the lead, and especially being "ready" for sex all the time.  Actually, I feel more comfortable in a more passive role and waiting for the woman to take the lead.  I need to feel wanted before I can open up.  Maybe because I've somehow felt unwanted for pretty much my whole life.

* -  BTW, this was one of the big difficulties in my marriage -- my wife treated sex as a physical need, something to be consumed.  I was expected to dispense sex on demand, or at least whenever she felt she needed it.  And I felt less and less safe as time went on.

[Gina Taylor]

I ran across The people I relate to well (or even adequately) are all female.  Most men seem like an alien species to me.  Football; drinking; dominance games; "male bonding" -- they all turn out to be about as much fun as the stomach flu.

I know the feeling. This was something I was discusing with my therapist, and he fully understood what I was talking about. I have more of a relationship and understanding (mentally) with women than I do with men.

[Lo]

When I was a kid, it was so much easier to be "masculine" than it is now. In my school, boy culture was  mostly just about being competitive, handling bugs and gross things, playing with action figures, and not caring about things like love and relationships.

After puberty, when things started looking more like 'man culture', to be masculine meant adopting a very pervasive cruelty and opportunism that turned me away. Girl and young woman culture was just as cruel and opportunistic, I found (coming from a household in which the physical abuse was so much more dramatic than the verbal, I led myself to believe that words were less dangerous things), but words weren't as scary to me as the thought of physical violence... and mostly the pain of suddenly being irreconcilably different in ways that were more obvious to them than me was something that hurt and confused just as much.

Woman culture was something I could infiltrate, so I did.

[insane_protagonist]

This is an interesting discussion, and it's fascinating to see how different people have different feelings and experiences...

When I was younger, I dealt with not feeling "woman" by adopting feminist ideals (which I still hold very strongly!) about how gender roles were nonsense and there are as many ways to BE female as there are females. However, the identity "woman" remained unacceptable. I could be a girl, maybe, female, sure, but not a WOMAN. I guess my feeling is that "woman" is not just the state of being identified as female, but is a specific adult social role that I simply had not desire to attain.

I don't "hate my body". But I hate certain parts of it. The boobs are just so awkward and I would gladly get rid of them if I could. I am not bothered by my genitals, but I am TERRIBLY HORRIBLY dysphoric about the internal parts of my reproductive system. I 100% CANNOT deal with having periods, so I stay on Depo Provera both for birth control and for that purpose.

Dysphoria is a weird thing for me... When I am by myself I rarely feel it. I do feel a lot better when wearing a binder, BUT thinking about my presentation causes me to feel much stronger dysphoria so... most of the time I don't even bind.

Socially speaking... I present as "myself". I don't know how to do "man" or "woman" and I'm okay with that. At this point in my life I'm just... pretty tired of worrying about what people think of me. It's awkward. I have bad days sometimes. I don't want people to correct themselves if they call me "sir" - but it's pretty satisfying when they don't address me with female pronouns.

*shrugs* I'm still working through all this stuff. Body, personality, socializing... It's tough. I don't know if I will ever figure it out entirely. But I'm doing better than I was, so that's something!

[Asche]

I guess my feeling is that "woman" is not just the state of being identified as female, but is a specific adult social role that I simply had not desire to attain.

That's how I feel about "man," although I've more or less accepted being identified as male and fitting in on a superficial level.  Since my body is so obviously male, I can't really make an androgynous role for myself.

I don't "hate my body". But I hate certain parts of it.

I could do without my beer-belly.

I'm 6 feet tall and over 250 lbs (not all of it fat, but more than I'd like ), and I'm ambivalent about it.  On the one hand, there's a lot of cr*p I don't have to put up with because I don't look like an easy victim.  On the other hand, I think many women find me intimidating, which I don't like.  I don't look in the mirror the way I feel a lot of the time -- someone who would just like to be taken into someone's arms and hide from the big bad world and be taken care of for a while.  I sometimes wish I could be a cute 5 ft 2 in young woman, who people would want to be nice to -- but then I'd be mad all the time because people were forever assuming I was incompetent.  Ghod just can't win ....

I guess I view my body as this thing I have (rather than this think which I am) which I can't trade in for a different model, so I might as well make the best of it.  It's not exactly me, but not exactly not-me.

[insane_protagonist]

I guess I view my body as this thing I have (rather than this think which I am) which I can't trade in for a different model, so I might as well make the best of it.  It's not exactly me, but not exactly not-me.

I think that's a pretty good summary of how a lot of people feel - but yeah, there's things like height and bone structure that are always gonna be there and make it tough to shake people's expectations. : ( 
It seems like some people just have a really unlucky time of it.