How do you define androgynous?

[Gina_Z]

For me it's not about appearances, like looking like a tough chick or a sweet guy. It's about being OK with my male body, but wanting to have a female body. I think I would be happier as a physical woman. I think that would go along with my mind better. I do not hate my male anatomy. I put up with it. I'd prefer a feminine body. My mind is more towards the feminine side of 'androgynous'. Appearance? Hmmm. Maybe like a biker chick with high heels rather than a pink fluffy barbie girl. But variety is the spice of life. Definitely cute pink panties.

[Phoenix_2812]

Hi Gina.

I feel as if I'm in the same boat as you. How does on go about finding that balance? I'm not exactly what you'd call feminine looking so I'd pass as well as a woman as a cheetah blends in amongst chimpanzees. My mannerisms are mostly feminine these days, but while I'm around others, I have to hide it and that is what makes me feel uncomfortable.

I've not yet spoken to my doctor about how I feel, mainly because of my (mostly) manly presentation. I have felt for some time now that my appearance and mannerisms while amongst others feels wrong some how. I've taken one of those online tests to see whether I'm more male or female and it always comes back androgynous. I kind of hate that because I don't like the idea of being in between the different genders. I'd be happier as one but not the other and certainly not a crossover of the 2.

If this offends you in any way because of how you feel, please accept my apologies in advance. No offence is intended or implied. In fact, if people are happy with themselves with how they are, then that's fine by me.

Chris

[Asche]

I'm not exactly what you'd call feminine looking so I'd pass as well as a woman as a cheetah blends in amongst chimpanzees.

I like that way of putting it   (or is it ?)

I think if I had a choice of any type of body, most days, I would probably opt for a female body.  Some days I'd prefer a smaller one (like Tina Fey's), others I'd rather have one like Mia Hamm's.  But I also like that my current (male) body is pretty strong.  One time I hired a piano moving company which turned out to consist of four high school football players (bad sign!), and I discovered (the hard way) that I could out-lift and out-pull the four of them put together.  (No, the piano moving did not turn out well -- neither for the piano, nor for my downstairs neighbor's wall.  I had to hire a different crew just to get the piano down the stairs and onto the truck.)

Anyway, I've given up worrying about whether I'm "really" male or "really" female.  I find that just figuring out what makes me happy, what makes me sad, etc., is hard enough without worrying about tagging any of those things "male" or "female."  E.g., I've discovered I like wearing skirts and dresses, so I just do it and try not to worry about what it might say about what "identity" I have.  (IMHO, "identities" are vastly overrated.)

If this offends you in any way because of how you feel, please accept my apologies in advance.

It's probably just my cluelessness, but I don't see how you talking about how you feel about yourself would offend someone else.

But I might just need some enlightening.

[Gina_Z]

That's right. Phoenix, I am not offended at all. You are who you are. My main point is that being androgynous is a mental state for me, not a fashion thing. There are many MTFs who sort of hate their male parts and for me it's not that extreme. I just want to be a more complete woman. I want to go more to that end of the gender spectrum.

[Gewaltraud]

Though there's probably a difference between androgynous and androgyny and androgyne, I'm too naive and uninformed to be so clever.

In my opinion, it's the way someone is. A few (yet unmentioned, I b'lieve) possibilities:
*Someone who, perhaps, doesn't focus at all on any sort of a gender/sex-related identity
*Someone who, perhaps, doesn't focus at all on any sort of an orientation-related identity
*Someone who, perhaps, unintentionally dresses and/or behaves in a way specific to no particular sex/gender

I've noticed that in my case, androgyny has been very unintentional. I remember friends back in middle and high school calling me androgynous and I'm confronted with very confused people on a weekly basis, who either ask me if I'm "a boy or a girl" or who assume (wrongly), which is just as good a confirmation that I could be one sex/gender or the other. My physical appearance is more associated with music scenes based in the 80s than with anything sex/gender/orientation-related. I think that's what confuses people the most (beneath a long, red trench coat, you can't see any bumps or shapes - practical, no?).

[blue]

I have some traits (physical, mental, emotional) that are quite strongly masculine, and some that are quite strongly feminine, and I am not interested in changing or hiding any of them.

[Gewaltraud]

I have some traits (physical, mental, emotional) that are quite strongly masculine, and some that are quite strongly feminine, and I am not interested in changing or hiding any of them.

Nor should you!

[Gina_Z]

For myself, I think happiness can be achieved through non-conformity and individualism. I definitely do not want to be defined by my gender, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, nationality, hobbies, clothing, etc.

[Lo]

Love your posts as always, Ativan. :]

[Phoenix_2812]

Thanks, peeps. What I was alluding to was that I see myself stuck in between 2 genders and I don't really like it and that I didn't want anyone else who lives quite happily in that way to be offended.

I understand that it's a matter of opinion, I just wanted to make sure, was all.

Chris

[Gewaltraud]

Typically, androgyn refers to a persons identity which is outside of the usual binary ideas of gender.
Typically, androgynous refers to a presentation that is outside of the usual binary ideas of gender.
Androgyny is the term that covers all aspects of things outside of the usual binary ideas of gender.

This is an incredibly helpful layout; thank you!

I find it very difficult to explain what I mean when I say I don't identify with gender or sex at all. No bigender, no passerby between the two major cities of Male and Female, nothing to do with any specific sex/gender/"appropriate" genitalia. It's not even really a matter of feeling neutral; I'm just not sexual in any way, shape or form and want my body to mirror this by being neutered so I don't have to look down anymore and be grossed out by having genitals.

We struggle with terms and definitions because of the diversity.
Pronouns is a good example.
Because of the insistence of society to define gender in terms of binary or just male and female, we aren't always recognized as a defined group within societies rules...
Society is confused enough about us, without us needing to confuse them even more, along with ourselves in discussions of Androgyny.
For the sake of simplicity and to avoid confusing discussions, we tend to stay with what we use currently in this forum.
We are refining definitions and terms all the time, but it is going to be a slow process of change, to avoid confusion.

For me, being androgyn not a fashion statement, tick or way of life; it's more of a self-loathing and disgust phenomenon that comes from the fact that I'm trapped in a sexual body in a sexual society in which there are only two ("acceptable") options, both of which are sexual. To put words into pictures, I feel exactly like Anna Varney Cantodea explicitly and perfectly presents in many of her images (though she, herself, identifies as a heterosexual female):


I have no problem being referred to as "she," nor do I have a problem being referred to as "he." I just don't want to be either: not a  member of either "group". I want to be clean - a smooth surface of whatever the fizzle I am. Is there a name for this? Is this genderqueer? Because before I'd refer to myself as "queer," I'd have to take back the original definition of "strange," as "queer" is now associated with sexuality. I think I'm more confused about myself than society is. It's exhausting.

[Gina_Z]

No matter how you look at it, self loathing is a bad thing. Depression is a bad thing and should be a passing phase. Constant sorrow needs to be overcome. Love and acceptance is probably the answer.

[Gewaltraud]

It's been explained as being agender or neutrois for you, if I have read some of the the comments correctly.
Pretty much realized your point of self loathing and such from previous statements.
You're only as trapped as you want to be, and I it appears that you use that as an excuse.
The shock value of self loathing and disgust for oneself, is pretty much around zero.
Although it is in itself, something to be concerned about. That to, is relatively common here at times.
I'm somewhat concerned about that, but you seem to have it under control.
When you are here, 'they' is appropriate, rather than he or she if you prefer. There are other terms as well that some use.
You might try that out IRL, as well as mentioning that your preference is not being a member of the male and female groups common in society.

Agender sounds about right for me. It goes well with asexual, apathetic and atheist. :p
I think I only feel trapped because I don't know what to do with myself or how to make myself feel more human. I'm stuck on a human-dominant planet with humans and their human ways and barely even have the ability to feel sympathy for others, let alone myself. I'm kind of robotic that way and until I find a way out of my metal shell, I'll be feeling trapped, I'm afraid. I do like your suggestion of trying to bring this "identity" out into IRL, though I have no idea how I'd deal with that in the workplace. I live in Germany and live/work with Germans and the entire language is based on genders. All nouns have genders. All of them. So it'll be an interesting ride to continue to try and work my way around that...

Signature thang noted. I'll switch it up. I forget that not everyone likes sparkling Robert Smiths and Siouxsie Siouxs. :p

I usually suggest that going through some of the back topics and also maybe some other areas of the forum to find answers.
There is much information to be found, once a person sits down and looks for it,
rather than looking for things to expound upon that relate to your current state of confusion.
It's much easier to get answers to your questions when they have a little more substance to them.
Many of the answers have been discussed in topics available to you.

I don't see you as confused, as much as I see a need for more knowledge that you can digest at your own rate.
Back topics and the wiki here can answer most kinds of questions for you.
There is much that can be learned from the people who have preceded you here.
I think you have the 'different' part of yourself pretty much under control and are having fun with it.
Genderqueer neutrois asexual Non-Binary would be the easy answer to your question.
Is there something more specific that you have been wondering about?

Also a solid suggestion and I will look through older threads and discussions to see what I can find and/or learn about myself and the colourful world around me. I just thought that as a new member, I should introduce myself, my current situation and make my general presence known.  My confusion definitely stems from lack of knowledge and I'll freely admit this. Though I've been like this for as long as I can remember, I've only recently come to realise that it's maybe not as abnormal as I thought it was and maybe, just maybe, I'll learn to figure out why I am the way I am and since when. So yeah, I'm very much aware of the "different" aspect of my being; I'm just not quite sure what you mean by my "having fun with it"? There's nothing more specific I'm wondering about, though I do have one more "general" question: is there a legal surgery for agender individuals to "neuter" them aesthetically and/or functionally?

[Lo]

This is an incredibly helpful layout; thank you!

I find it very difficult to explain what I mean when I say I don't identify with gender or sex at all. No bigender, no passerby between the two major cities of Male and Female, nothing to do with any specific sex/gender/"appropriate" genitalia. It's not even really a matter of feeling neutral; I'm just not sexual in any way, shape or form and want my body to mirror this by being neutered so I don't have to look down anymore and be grossed out by having genitals.

I feel very similarly to you! Except, I have strong kink inclinations and like sexuality to be "inflicted" on me without it being part of my natural state of being, like pain.

And haha, I was thinking along those lines too when the analogy was brought up. If male and female are two cities and androgyne the land between them, then I'm on the moon!

I oftentimes feel like an inhuman thing. Like a pet cat. I've been called a robot before when I divulge to people how my relationship works, and I have fellow mecha fans say they think of me as a robot, and I take it as a compliment. Robots and robot relationships feature a lot in my work. I can just relate to the idea of "robot", of "mechanical person", more than I can "human person" a lot of the time.

[Gewaltraud]

And haha, I was thinking along those lines too when the analogy was brought up. If male and female are two cities and androgyne the land between them, then I'm on the moon!

I oftentimes feel like an inhuman thing. Like a pet cat. I've been called a robot before when I divulge to people how my relationship works, and I have fellow mecha fans say they think of me as a robot, and I take it as a compliment. Robots and robot relationships feature a lot in my work. I can just relate to the idea of "robot", of "mechanical person", more than I can "human person" a lot of the time.

Well great! When I forget that "robot" is a better term for what I feel I am, I often compare myself to a dog or cat. I said it once and I'll say it again; I'm so glad to have been recommended this site. I feel a lot less alone in my mechanical world now.

[Lo]

Glad you joined us.

We need more nonbinary folks on here >>;

[eli77]

Agender sounds about right for me. It goes well with asexual, apathetic and atheist. :p

Technically neutrois would generally be seen as closer to including all of what you are describing. Agender generally means just "without gender." Whereas neutrois is often used to describe people who are specifically uncomfortable with the gendered aspects of their physical form--some undergo surgery or other medical interventions to achieve something they are more comfortable with.

I could be described as an agender female (female in terms of sex). I lack an internal sense of gender, but I do have an internal sense of my body that lines up with a traditional female form--and experienced discomfort when it didn't match that form (I was assigned male at birth, for reference).

Personally though, I prefer to just say something like "I don't have one" or "I don't do gender" if I'm asked about my gender identity in a space where I'm comfortable outing myself as non-binary. I don't really like the term agender that much.

As always the terms are kind of... best fit. Or whatever you are comfortable with is good, whatever you are not comfortable with is bad.

And haha, I was thinking along those lines too when the analogy was brought up. If male and female are two cities and androgyne the land between them, then I'm on the moon!

I usually think of gender as less a spectrum and more a galaxy of options. Like male and female are just two points/cities within a forest that stretches out endlessly in all directions. I don't think we should always be forced to define ourselves in relation to the things we are not (i.e. male/female). It's part of why I don't like calling myself agender very much.

[Taka]

i think we've already started exploring way beyond the limits of the forest. we had an interesting discussion on... gender, or maybe how to describe them, or something. you might like to read the thread for some different thoughts on the matter:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,146750.0.html

there is one thing that you should know about the term "androgyne", it is most commonly used as meaning someone in between genders, like seriously identifying as something that is most easily described as half of each, and a rather harmonious mix. there are several reasons for why the term ended up as an umbrella term for non-binary identities at this forum, most of them such that you shouldn't expect people outside these forums to realize that you mean "non-binary" when you say "androgyne".

a while back, i think it must have been because the group had grown a little bigger than just a very few androgynes, one of the stickies "shedding some light" was started. probably because we had a need to find out who we really are as a group. reading the thread will let you know some of the diversity that exists among non-binary people. and you'll also see us typing out our different insecurities, and questioning how or if we fit into this group. things get a little interesting when we have to define ourselves because nobody else have defined us before. binaries are lucky that man and woman are well defined categories that only need a very little bit of tweaking in order to fit in trans and intersex individuals.

[Gewaltraud]

Technically neutrois would generally be seen as closer to including all of what you are describing. Agender generally means just "without gender." Whereas neutrois is often used to describe people who are specifically uncomfortable with the gendered aspects of their physical form--some undergo surgery or other medical interventions to achieve something they are more comfortable with.

I usually just call myself Gewaltraud, which is a stupid play on words. Waltraud is an old, Old, OLD "female" German name and der Gewalt (a masculine German noun) means violence. Before people get carried away with thinking about it as a name in itself, they're amused by the lameness and giggle. It's good. I don't feel the need to "come out" as anything, though if I'm asked to explain how I identify, it's at least in a discussion setting and not in a labels-for-the-sake-of-labels moment.

I guess I don't really care what is a technically more fitting term for me; I really only asked to better understand myself, in which case "neutrois" does sound more along the lines of what I live with.

[eli77]

I usually just call myself Gewaltraud, which is a stupid play on words. Waltraud is an old, Old, OLD "female" German name and der Gewalt (a masculine German noun) means violence. Before people get carried away with thinking about it as a name in itself, they're amused by the lameness and giggle. It's good. I don't feel the need to "come out" as anything, though if I'm asked to explain how I identify, it's at least in a discussion setting and not in a labels-for-the-sake-of-labels moment.

I guess I don't really care what is a technically more fitting term for me; I really only asked to better understand myself, in which case "neutrois" does sound more along the lines of what I live with.

I'm an editor and I'm really into words. I like collecting the various definitions and interpretations of all the new language that has sprung up around gender and sex over the last few years. I just used all the distancing language like "technically" because people can get pretty sensitive around labels, and I wouldn't want to impose anything unwanted. As always personal preference trumps everything including definition when it comes to identity stuff.

Also, I meant "outing" in the sense of being "open about." Not in the sense of "coming out" as a thing. Basically I just meant that I don't feel comfortable discussing my experience of gender with most people out in the world. So generally I avoid those kinds of questions or lie if I need to.