I got READ

[MariaMx]

Lol... 'tall' ... lets coopt the word and own it.  Tall pride!

Its hard to say if thats what she meant without being there.  But its hard to say 'hey are you trans?' Isnt it.

I will tell a little aside story on the subject.  I was walking through an unfamiliar mall recently, and I clocked a girl walking towards me.  Very passable to mortals, but not to the trans eye- having spent so much time analyzing trans faces online we are our own worst critics.   She saw that I clocked her, and looked anxious.  Or... did she?  I wanted to pop over, introduce myself and point to my trans pride symbol bracelet and let her know I was a sister too... but something stopped me.   What if I was wrong?
Sigh... it may have turned an uncomfortable moment for her to a happy one.  But dammit, missed.

We need a secret signal or something



Maybe I should have asked her if she was tall.

If you did that to me I would not like you.

Whenever I see someone I suspect might be trans I always do my best not to make eye contact or otherwise make it known that I have potentially spotted them.

[Marina mtf]

 

of course the infallible trans-police are the trans-people themselves.

Having said that I wish that the "trans" status may be regarded as a health status,
like a diabetic that needs to inject insulin regularly.

If I "clock" a diabetic woman, because I see in her purse some diabetic-related medicines,
I don't scream it to the world: "SHE is a diabetic!!!". So I would like that if they clock me
(and SURE they WILL, at least someone) they do not shout in public "OH MY GOD! A MAN WITH A SKIRT!!!".

The same if I clocked a woman with artificial teeth.

Bottom line: I don't mind being READ, you can be read politely and rudely, that's the difference.

[Cindy]

Absolutely. I don't mind people asking about my eye - if it is done in a tactful and respectful way.

That said is someone outright asked if I was trans I'd feel like crap regardless of how they did it.

Funny you say that and thank you.

My wife and I will sit for a coffee when we go out and she is a severely disabled woman we are both very outgoing and friendly and we can both speak. I don't mean that rudely just as a perspective on her disability.
We have people come up and chat and they have been really nice, people do ask how she is going and how she is coping etc, which we both take in a very positive friendly way, and that is how it is meant, and it is nice and polite and I think is showing we are inclusive in society. If some one asked 'And how is your sex change going?' I think I would react in a different manner!!!

It would not be polite.

[Eva Marie]

Bottom line: I don't mind being READ, you can be read politely and rudely, that's the difference.

I just started my transition and this is the way I see it - I expect to get read, especially in the very early days while I'm learning my makeup and dealing with a beard shadow and learning how to present. I can't do a thing about it anyway so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. If someone does clock me and are polite about it I'll respond in kind - after all, I may be the first trans person that they have ever run into in life and it's important to leave that person with a good impression of who we are.

And then...... there are the people that have to make a spectacle out of seeing you by their actions - these people don't merit any attention by me. I may be some kind of joke to them but it's MY life and MY life is far more important than whatever nonsense is rolling around in their heads. As a very small example last Saturday I was out in public and a couple of women at a restaurant kept looking over at me and were quite animated so I know that they clocked me. I just stayed calm, kept eating and ignored them. They left soon afterward and that's the last I'll ever see of them.

As far as Suzi's question - my gut feel is that she may have been on a fishing expedition but since her questions were couched very carefully that tells me that if she knew you were trans she also knew enough not to out you right there on the spot. So I'd guess that her questions/intent were not malicious in nature.

[anjaq]

I certainly would not like that situation. With me, the "code word" is usually something about low pitched voices and/or endocrine problems as in if I visit an endocrinologist. I think some of the times they really dont know and are fishing, sometimes they know and try to tell me they know and sometimes they know but dont show it at all except maybe by not treating me as any other woman. The latter part is what worries me about all of these situations - if they "read me" and dont shout it out but are polite, thats nice, but if this changes their own perception of me and how they act towards me, that is annoying. For example if they do, they will not talk about having babies or getting menstruations around me. Not that I could contribute to these topics, but I still feel somehow excluded.
And its weird maybe but there are situations when people really want to be friendly but it just does devastate me anyways even though I know that this probably still is the best outcome relatively. These are the ones when women come by and tell you that they "see you as a woman" or "accept you as a woman". Thats so - meh. Point one is of course that they did "read" you, so thats already not good, point two is that saying so probably means they actually do see you different in some way but dont want you to think they do. As I said, its still far better than just silently treating you differently or even outright outing you, so it is the best outcome but still I feel sad at such situations.

EDIT: I actually started out a different way at the beginning of transition - feeling that I for sure would not always pass at all, that I would be glad if I made it most of the time and blissful when no one commented openly. Somehow that changed in the long run after some years...

[Shantel]

If some one asked 'And how is your sex change going?' I think I would react in a different manner!!!

It would not be polite.

A police woman asked me that out of the blue once and it just floored me. Not nice at all!

[Sammy]

The latter part is what worries me about all of these situations - if they "read me" and dont shout it out but are polite, thats nice, but if this changes their own perception of me and how they act towards me, that is annoying. For example if they do, they will not talk about having babies or getting menstruations around me. Not that I could contribute to these topics, but I still feel somehow excluded.

We gotta remember that both genders are very different in their response. Guys tend to be more openly douchebags straight into Your face so that they can see Your response, whereas girls could be all that nice and kind, but at the same time very devastating behind Your back. This is very important and crucial difference and if we have had enough socialising with guys, we might forget about this. And sadly, being backstabby is one of the few features which I dislike in female social bonding .

[Robin Mack]

Yes, what that woman said was rude, particularly in view of how hard it is for the trans population to be/feel accepted.  I sincerely hope she was not trying to be rude.  She was asking, indirectly, in the way that a lesbian or a gay man might ask another person if they, too were homosexual.  There's a certain etiquette to it, and from her culture, from what I have seen, she was being delicate.  Ignorant, but delicate.

I tend to look at the positives.  You spent all day in this woman's company, and to me it sounds like she only "maybe" clocked you... picked up on enough clues over the course of the entire hike that she wasn't certain if you were trans or not (at least, that's how I read it).  She gave you a softball.  She (probably) wanted to see how you reacted to confirm or deny her suspicions, possibly in order to solve a mystery for herself.

If the woman was interested in hurting you, she could have easily done so by loudly asking about your transition, so I don't think that was the intent (Of course, I could be very wrong). 

But to the Polyanna in me, the upshot is that you went hiking with a lesbian who knows transgendered people and you passed so freaking well even *she* wasn't certain.  Still doesn't excuse her behavior, but perhaps it can soothe the hurt a bit to know that. 

*hug*

[vlmitchell]

Getting read happens by those who are looking to do something like that. If they feel like they want to make a deal out of it, they will but it's totally up to you as to whether you let them.

In my first year or so, I got read occasionally. Generally it was annoying but not really something worth my emotional turmoil. What this lady did was very *very* subtle and a far cry from what I've heard a lot of girls go through or have gone through myself when attempting to find community within the lesbian world so, I'm gonna have to say this is a big girl panties moment. It may have made you uncomfortable but it was very mild and, really, if you can't deal with this, some of the other stuff that you're gonna experience will floor you out cold. She didn't out you, she was probing to see if you were going to be open about it. You weren't and she didn't pursue it.

While a lot of us, especially early on, are fragile and delicate, we have to toughen up a bit with time. A lot of this comes down to acceptance and self-confidence in who we are. Most of the time, if someone even gets close to the topic, I'll go ahead and open up about who and what I am because I embrace it: I'm a woman. I'm a transsexual woman, sure, but I'm still a dyed-in-the-wool, southern-fried, farm girl from Alabama that can dance at a ball or hoe a field, fix a drain or hem a skirt. If you have a problem with that, that's on you but it has no bearing on my opinion about myself nor my mood 'cause, if you do, you're definitely not important to me.

[Kate G]

Lol... 'tall' ... lets coopt the word and own it.  Tall pride!

Its hard to say if thats what she meant without being there.  But its hard to say 'hey are you trans?' Isnt it.

I will tell a little aside story on the subject.  I was walking through an unfamiliar mall recently, and I clocked a girl walking towards me.  Very passable to mortals, but not to the trans eye- having spent so much time analyzing trans faces online we are our own worst critics.   She saw that I clocked her, and looked anxious.  Or... did she?  I wanted to pop over, introduce myself and point to my trans pride symbol bracelet and let her know I was a sister too... but something stopped me.   What if I was wrong?
Sigh... it may have turned an uncomfortable moment for her to a happy one.  But dammit, missed.

We need a secret signal or something



Maybe I should have asked her if she was tall.

This would be super uncool.  You are basically saying, "I can tell you aren't really the sex you identify with so let's be friends upon the basis of your inability to pass as female."

[Danielle Emmalee]

This would be super uncool.  You are basically saying, "I can tell you aren't really the sex you identify with so let's be friends upon the basis of your inability to pass as female."

I'd have to agree.  If someone really WANTS to meet other transgender people, they will do so at a designated place e.g. a transgender support group.  Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.

[Murbella]

I'd have to agree.  If someone really WANTS to meet other transgender people, they will do so at a designated place e.g. a transgender support group.  Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.

Yeah, conjure your best friendly smile and walk on.

Yes, what that woman said was rude, particularly in view of how hard it is for the trans population to be/feel accepted.  I sincerely hope she was not trying to be rude.  She was asking, indirectly, in the way that a lesbian or a gay man might ask another person if they, too were homosexual.  There's a certain etiquette to it, and from her culture, from what I have seen, she was being delicate.  Ignorant, but delicate.

I tend to look at the positives.  You spent all day in this woman's company, and to me it sounds like she only "maybe" clocked you... picked up on enough clues over the course of the entire hike that she wasn't certain if you were trans or not (at least, that's how I read it).  She gave you a softball.  She (probably) wanted to see how you reacted to confirm or deny her suspicions, possibly in order to solve a mystery for herself.

If the woman was interested in hurting you, she could have easily done so by loudly asking about your transition, so I don't think that was the intent (Of course, I could be very wrong). 

But to the Polyanna in me, the upshot is that you went hiking with a lesbian who knows transgendered people and you passed so freaking well even *she* wasn't certain.  Still doesn't excuse her behavior, but perhaps it can soothe the hurt a bit to know that. 

*hug*

Agreed with this.  I know my being pre-everything places me outside actually having to deal with this yet, but from the impression I get reading the story, she was doing everything she could to be nice while still needing to do something about her curiosity.  The comparison to tying to find out another persons orientation is apt I think, as that is a question that must be asked very delicately as well.  The ability to ask an indirect question which one group wouldn't catch the meaning of, while the other would know seems to be a nice skill to have when approaching people outside of obvious circumstances.  Again that said, it still wasn't the most polite thing to do.  To quote Robin again "she was being delicate.  Ignorant, but delicate."

I don't intend to hijack the thread but the topic of indirect means of finding out sexual orientation, I once went to the Portland winter beer fest with someone I met through a new hires mailing list at work.  It sounded like it was going to be a group of people, but ended up just myself and another guy.  We both got rather tipsy and ended up just walking around downtown.  Ended up taking a pee break in a bar which on inspection of the mens bathroom advertizing was a gay bar.  After leaving I asked if that was a gay bar and it was laughed about and we parted ways.  It wasn't until a few weeks later that I figured out that was probably his way of testing his gaydar.  You have to be sneaky sometimes in order to not offend someone.

[suzifrommd]

Too many great comments to answer them. Thanks for the feedback, everyone who posted.

She didn't outright say it but as far as I'd be concerned I'd rather she'd just asked outright rather than hinting at it.

I agree completely. It may have been indirect, but we both knew she was asking me whether I'm trans.

And I agree with ErinM, Shantel, SamC, MariaMX, Murbella, and Kate G. Whether indirectly or directly, asking a trans person whether they are trans is not polite.

Lets see if she is going to invite You over for next event. If yes, then it was a subtle way (at least in her opinion) of hers to let You know and that she is cool with it.  If not, then it is the same, except You are not welcome anymore. If they were a nice company, then I hope it will turn out as the former option.

I don't think there was anything malicious about it. I think she was just curious. She was friendly to me the whole time and I picked up no cattiness or ill will.

It may have made you uncomfortable but it was very mild and, really, if you can't deal with this, some of the other stuff that you're gonna experience will floor you out cold.

Ouch!  Way harsh! I didn't say I couldn't deal with this. I just asked whether anyone had similar experiences and how they dealt with it.

Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.

Hey!!!! I'll have you know I passed pretty well. Just ask the woman who grinned at me in the women's room when I came out of the toilet stall and saw her toddler-aged daughter playing with the hand dryer.    

[DrBobbi]

A simple no would suffice, and if you're feeling a bit frisky, follow up her question with a question of your own....Like, "Oh, that's a transgender writer, isn't it? Are you a transexual?"

[Nero]

I don't think there was anything malicious about it. I think she was just curious. She was friendly to me the whole time and I picked up no cattiness or ill will.

That's good at least. Sometimes people can be clueless about the etiquette in this situation. She may have thought she was showing acceptance by mentioning it or even simply trying to find common ground thinking if you were trans you probably did know her friend.

I know how demoralizing this can be, but don't let it get you down. There's probably always going to be that one person who will clock you and she's likely attuned to these things being in the gay community and hanging out with trans people. Plus going on a hike and spending the day together, she probably had plenty of opportunities to notice something. It doesn't mean she made you on sight or anything.

[Emmaline]

Just to clarify my story- the girl reacted to my reaction... she seemed super uncomfortable and must have thought I clocked her and was poorly judging her... i felt bad because she probably went home and got super critical about her look and why she was clocked.  But in fact the only reason was teeny tiny and only another ftm could pick it ... so that is the reason I wanted to communicate ' its okay- your totally passing to regular mortals -not a negative- my jolting look wasnt that I am judging you- I am just excited to meet someone like me and reacted as I did.'.  Still, there is just no way to approach us as a stranger is there?

Roles switched, I would prefer the mystery clocker introduced themselves as trans and explain rather than me tying myself up in knots wondering why I didnt pass and hating myself.  Its a bit like the 'do I pass' part of the forum... we want feedback so I can refine, and have to face the pain of criticism to improve.
So based on the girls reaction, I wanted to say hi.  Had I simply clocked her and she not noticed, I certainly wouldn't have approached her... though I am dying to meet other girls like me. 

[MadelineB]

Sounds like a great adventure Suzi.

Gay/lesbian people don't have the same problem about clocking one another, since it is necessary in order to get a date or a mate. They often don't understand why it hurts when they clock us too, though they do tend to be understanding about the need to not out others... while sending signals to invite mutual self-disclosure.

One side question for you about the fisherwoman - do you know for certain she was cis? I try not to assume that someone isn't trans just because they are a lesbian and pass superbly. And I would't assume someone is cis just because they are somewhat clueless about trans etiquette. A lot of trans women are. The signal she was sending could have been about herself. If I told a new lesbian friend that I was friends with Autumn Sandeen, or Helen Boyd, for example, I would be potentially outing myself, and certainly inviting that person to tell me if 1) they are aware and open about trans issues, and 2) whether they have clocked me already.

[anjaq]

ha, thats an interesting question. How do two women like us meet and out themselves to each other to be able to bond or share experiences when both are putting most value on not outing themselves.
To quote a previous post - we really need a secret handshake LOL

[eli77]

Gay/lesbian people don't have the same problem about clocking one another, since it is necessary in order to get a date or a mate. They often don't understand why it hurts when they clock us too, though they do tend to be understanding about the need to not out others... while sending signals to invite mutual self-disclosure.

This exactly. From her perspective, she would have been following standard queer etiquette. It was sort of like asking, "I recognize you as trans. Are you open about this?" But you said no, so she should drop it.

ha, thats an interesting question. How do two women like us meet and out themselves to each other to be able to bond or share experiences when both are putting most value on not outing themselves.
To quote a previous post - we really need a secret handshake LOL

I feel like that sometimes. There is a trans girl who works at a store around the corner--literally 15secs from my front door. But our etiquette dictates that I can't say anything. Oh well.

And in a lot of ways, what the woman asked Suzi WAS a secret handshake.

Because of this I try to avoid gays and lesbians.

That strategy is a little hard to enact when you are one.

[Carlita]

Just to go back to the OP, I think people are being unduly unkind about the woman who popped the, 'Do you know Mara Drummond?' question.

She's a bit like someone who has a seat on a crowded subway. There's a woman standing up in front of her. The woman has a large belly. If she's pregnant, the polite thing to do is offer her a seat. But if she isn't, offering her a seat will just emphasis that you think she's incredibly fat.

In this case, the other woman she thought she had read you, but she wasn't sure. She didn't want to come right out and say, 'Are you trans?' because (a) it's pretty intrusive if you are and (b) it would totally piss a cis-woman off (sorry to be blunt, but it would).

On the other hand, maybe she wants you to know that she's cool with people who are transsexuals and might even like to have a conversation about the issue, like I would have conversations about race or religion with friends who are Afro-Caribbean or Muslim (or Jewish, or whatever). Or maybe she just wants to know a fact about you which will have some influence on the way she conducts a conversation - if only because she might be more sensitive to your feelings as a transsexual once she knows what the situation really is. OK, so this is a little patronising. But her intentions could be perfectly good and respectful.

Her problem, though, is: "How do I open the conversation without saying something blatant?"

By saying that she knows Mara Drummond she's dropping a hint, hoping you'll respond with the information she wants.

This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people. For example, two attractive strangers meet in a bar. Things seem to be going well. It's not going to be long before each starts trying to figure out whether the other one is single and/or available. Or ... Two guys have a conversation. One is straight, but he's not sure if the other is gay. Even if he's not remotely homophobic, he might try to get a clue or two - again, just to make sure he doesn't inadvertently say the wrong thing.

There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.