I got READ

[Shantel]

Of course you make a lot of sense Carlita and so do many other apologists for the woman in question, just the same no two tg people will internalize what her intent may have been in the same way and so it is really best for anyone reading another to simply avoid the impulse to say anything unless the tg person has given them a clear signal that it's ok which would usually entail them initiating that conversation themselves.

I was conversing with a cis woman over an issue she had with her house and noticed that she had a nice tan and she appeared to have a baby bubble, so being my usual perky self trying to make small talk to break the ice I commented about her nice tan and since it was winter made the assumption that she had been to Hawaii recently like so many people here in the NW do. She said, "No this isn't a tan, I'm black!" Then feeling foolish I tried to change the subject and said, "How soon are you due, is this your first?" She said, "I'm not pregnant, I'm just fat!" So now that I've shared my most classic foot-in-mouth faux pas, you can clearly see how this translates to the issue here.

[vlmitchell]

Ouch!  Way harsh! I didn't say I couldn't deal with this. I just asked whether anyone had similar experiences and how they dealt with it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh but being able to 'deal with it' in my book is not letting it affect you so, we just had a difference of opinion as to what that phrase means, as far as I can tell.

Being trans, openly or not, is a tough row to hoe and experiencing discomfort at things like this is just kind of a given. While I do understand the need to bounce things like this off your support network, my opinion is that, if you're going to try to do stealth (which you seem to be unless I'm mistaking your post), one needs to be prepared for people who have their radars set to super sensitive. I know that opinion isn't likely to be popular here but I've personally found that being unflappable in the face of things like that is the better course of action. Then again, I'm 100% full time and also 100% open about it so, I've built up a lot of endurance for the curiosity and/or judgements of others.

[Devlyn]

I still think the unwritten rule of not asking is probably not known by the large percentage of the world. I think you need to be familiar with trans spaces to have learned that. A curious person asking what they consider a polite question probably thinks they're on safe ice. Just my opinion, hugs, Devlyn

[anjaq]

Thinking again of this - I think there was not that much wrong with what she did. I mean if she did "read" you thats one thing - it happens. Now she can be silent on it or if she is interested she may want to drop a hint that she is ok with that. The third option of course is that she is unsure and wants to go fishing. In any case she leaves it up to you how to react.
i mean I had occasions where someone told me "the others think you may have been a man [sic], but it as you are a lesbian, I thought that you are like that because of that. Are the others right?" . In that case I said "no", basically lied, but I did not want to deal with it at that time. On other occasions I may be a bit mysterius, like if someone tells me that she thinks my hormones are off because I have such a deep voice and sort of asks how that could be as I surely must have noticed and sought help ... thats the fishing thing again. I then try to be as fuzzy in my replies. Like yes I do have homrone issues but I am in treatment now. No need to lie there - She is not smarter after that of course...

[vlmitchell]

"the others think you may have been a man [sic], but it as you are a lesbian, I thought that you are like that because of that. Are the others right?" . In that case I said "no", basically lied, but I did not want to deal with it at that time. 

TS ≠ 'a man'.

If someone asks "hey, are you trans?", that's a different story but asking if I am or ever was a dude, and I can say 'nope!' with no lie in my heart or mind. Just my 2¢, there.

[anjaq]

Thats of course true, Victoria. Now I would not condider it a lie either. Back then i was less into semantics and just considered the meaning. I dont know atm if my friend there asked me the question differently herself, if she used different words, but yeah I was SO read there and denied it, that was odd. I must say if I had known then that this friendship lasts up to now, I am not sure I had said that. I think she still suspects and maybe is a bit distanced at times because I did not tell her back then.

[suzifrommd]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh but being able to 'deal with it' in my book is not letting it affect you so, we just had a difference of opinion as to what that phrase means, as far as I can tell.

Well it hasn't affected me much at all.I was asking more about how I should deal with this socially. Perhaps unlike you, I do not think well on my feet and am kind of socially clueless a lot of the time, so having feedback helps me know how to react the next time it happens.

While I do understand the need to bounce things like this off your support network, my opinion is that, if you're going to try to do stealth (which you seem to be unless I'm mistaking your post), one needs to be prepared for people who have their radars set to super sensitive.

Stealth? Gawd no. Everyone at works knows who I was, as do all my friends.

But when I'm in new spaces, I would like to be seen as a cis woman, or at the very least someone about whom they aren't sure. I've been successful with this and it seems to work better when people interact with me as they would any other woman.

I agree that I need to be prepared for people with sensitive radars. That's what this post was about. How do I preserve the ambiguity until I'm ready to disclose who I am?

[izzy]

Just to go back to the OP, I think people are being unduly unkind about the woman who popped the, 'Do you know Mara Drummond?' question.

She's a bit like someone who has a seat on a crowded subway. There's a woman standing up in front of her. The woman has a large belly. If she's pregnant, the polite thing to do is offer her a seat. But if she isn't, offering her a seat will just emphasis that you think she's incredibly fat.

In this case, the other woman she thought she had read you, but she wasn't sure. She didn't want to come right out and say, 'Are you trans?' because (a) it's pretty intrusive if you are and (b) it would totally piss a cis-woman off (sorry to be blunt, but it would).

On the other hand, maybe she wants you to know that she's cool with people who are transsexuals and might even like to have a conversation about the issue, like I would have conversations about race or religion with friends who are Afro-Caribbean or Muslim (or Jewish, or whatever). Or maybe she just wants to know a fact about you which will have some influence on the way she conducts a conversation - if only because she might be more sensitive to your feelings as a transsexual once she knows what the situation really is. OK, so this is a little patronising. But her intentions could be perfectly good and respectful.

Her problem, though, is: "How do I open the conversation without saying something blatant?"

By saying that she knows Mara Drummond she's dropping a hint, hoping you'll respond with the information she wants.

This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people. For example, two attractive strangers meet in a bar. Things seem to be going well. It's not going to be long before each starts trying to figure out whether the other one is single and/or available. Or ... Two guys have a conversation. One is straight, but he's not sure if the other is gay. Even if he's not remotely homophobic, he might try to get a clue or two - again, just to make sure he doesn't inadvertently say the wrong thing.

There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.

I dont think its possible to read anybodies persons responses and motives. She may have done so for many reasons. I think it is quite rude to ask if someone is trans directly or indirectly regardless if the assumption is correct. Its demeaning if shes right or wrong about the assumption. 

[vlmitchell]

How do I preserve the ambiguity until I'm ready to disclose who I am?

Ah, well if that's the query, my general response would be to expect that it won't be ambiguous all the time and, if it comes up, try to just let it roll. When it's happened to me, I get a twitch of "*sigh* well, this is annoying" and then just pop open the can by going forward rather than back.

If I'd have been in the situation, I probably would have just said something to the effect of "If you're trying to very carefully ask me if I'm trans, the answer is 'yeah' but, it's not a big thing. Do you have questions or were you just curious about me? I don't really think about it all that much."

My reasoning is that I really *don't* think about it all that much nor do I let it affect me. It's just something that is, same as the tinnitus in my ear. It's annoying and sometimes drives me effin nuts but, after a while, I've let it just fade into the background noise of my life. If you're not there yet, then that's cool but you'll get uncomfortable when this happens and there's no two ways around that. Getting defensive doesn't work, going passive doesn't work either because they'll just read that as you being afraid to tell and you'll get the "she totally used to be a man" chatter behind your back... which sucks worse. I find that it's best to just open the can of worms and, if your relationship with the person improves during the conversation, you could mention that it tends to make trans peeps really uncomfortable to be asked about it as it's kind of forcing them out before they're ready.

I dont think its possible to read anybodies persons responses and motives. She may have done so for many reasons. I think it is quite rude to ask if someone is trans directly or indirectly regardless if the assumption is correct. Its demeaning if shes right or wrong about the assumption.

Yeah, it's rude but most people don't really know that it's rude nor do they know why. As far as demeaning to a cis chick? Well, maybe but that'd be on the question's target too wouldn't it?

I think that a lot of this is centered around your comfort with yourself in the reality of your situation. If you're trans, you're trans and there's no getting around it. If you're a blocky woman with a wide chest, that too is what it is and being hyper defensive about having a largeish body type is kinda pointless.

Again, just my 2¢.

[anjaq]

yeah weird... When I transitioned, I thought I would be open more or less. As in if someone asks me, I would tell outright. Over the years that attitude has faded, in part because no one ever asked directly anymore and I did not want to go and answer "why do you have such a low voice" with "oh, its because i am transsexual". It would have been odd. So I guess I slipped into an attempt to go stealth and now I dont really know if there is this chatter behind my back or not :/ and if people ask me directly I am not daring anymore to speak out. My "trans pride" in the sense that I talk to people about it openly has disappeared it seems. In part because I found that if I tell one person, everyone soon knows and not all of them are as cool with it as that one person and I also did not have the chance to talk to them and maybe answer their questions, so they are unanswered (like "does she have a vagina?",...).

[DrBobbi]

I'm early in my transition, starting my sixth month on HRT and being neither, here, nor there, I get stared at, often. Many people have seen me on talk-shows, or our local news talking about my transition, so, I make eye contact and start a dialogue. Most people have never spoken knowingly to a transgender person and I feel it's important to win hearts and minds. However...

I'm increasingly growing tired of people, including my doctor friends, asking about what I'm going to do with my genitals. I know that I'll never have any chance at a normal life, something that's eluded me for the past five decades, unless I go stealth once I have my facial fem surgery and go full time. It's not a happy thought that I have to leave my home and start anew, but being a human curiosity isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I feel that any admission of your trans status will open me up to more of the same. And let's not forget the difficulty it will cause with dating. Sure, it's important to be honest with your partner, especially if you're dating men, but I wouldn't want to put them through the whisper campaign calling into question their masculinity for dating me.

Then again, how will we ever become equal, if we're not out? How can we break down the stereotype if we're not open about our struggle. 

[Lexi Belle]

Nothing earth shaking, but left a strange taste so I wanted other people's impression.

I went on a hike with a lesbian meetup with four other women . I had a great time. They were super interesting people and we went out for lunch afterward.

During lunch, the lady who organized it told me I looked familiar, and asked me if I knew Mara Drummond.

(Mara Drummond is a transgender author who lives in our local community. I haven't actually ever met her.)

I'm convinced she read me as trans.

I tried to hide my surprise. I said no, I didn't know Mara Drummond, but the name sounded familiar. (The truth, though maybe a tad incomplete).

A couple minutes later, I casually asked what made her think I would know Mara Drummond.

"I hang out with her sometimes, and I thought I might have known you from that", was the answer. "She has a lot of tall friends and you're tall."

Aside from disappointment at not passing (though I did spend all morning with the woman, so there was a lot of opportunity to spot stuff, and it was for lesbians so they're probably more sensitive to this sort of thing), I thought it was kind of intrusive to as me about being trans, even really obliquely. I mean, I'm glad she didn't just say it straight out, but I thought this indirect reference was wasn't that much of an improvement.

This is the second time in as many weeks, that someone asked me whether I was trans by asking if I know so-and-so, who was an out transwoman.

Have others had similar experiences? How would you handle this?

Honestly, this might be getting widely over thought, too. If she had asked me if I knew some obviously well known trans woman in the community, I'd just simply say no if I didn't or yes if I did.  She might have honestly thought she would have met you through that woman, not that she thought you were trans and all trans people have this hidden bond of sisterhood.  She's lesbian herself, I'm guessing naturally born female, she said she knew her.   All this seems to be formulated from an assumption off of the typical constant fear of getting clocked.  Honestly, I don't think you just got clocked.  And you shouldn't react that way unless it is thrown in your face. "You're a trans"

Calm down!

[Kate G]

Honestly, this might be getting widely over thought, too. If she had asked me if I knew some obviously well known trans woman in the community, I'd just simply say no if I didn't or yes if I did.  She might have honestly thought she would have met you through that woman, not that she thought you were trans and all trans people have this hidden bond of sisterhood.  She's lesbian herself, I'm guessing naturally born female, she said she knew her.   All this seems to be formulated from an assumption off of the typical constant fear of getting clocked.  Honestly, I don't think you just got clocked.  And you shouldn't react that way unless it is thrown in your face. "You're a trans"

Calm down!

She seems quite calm to me.  She was simply sharing her experience and asking for others to collaborate their own insights.  She wasn't seeking to have someone tell her to completely dismiss her intuition or tell her how to feel, at least not that I am aware of.

[Lexi Belle]

She seems quite calm to me.  She was simply sharing her experience and asking for others to collaborate their own insights.  She wasn't seeking to have someone tell her to completely dismiss her intuition or tell her how to feel, at least not that I am aware of.

That was more at people talking about hating people who do that- not specifically to her post.

[vlmitchell]

I'm early in my transition, starting my sixth month on HRT and being neither, here, nor there, I get stared at, often. Many people have seen me on talk-shows, or our local news talking about my transition, so, I make eye contact and start a dialogue. Most people have never spoken knowingly to a transgender person and I feel it's important to win hearts and minds. However...

I'm increasingly growing tired of people, including my doctor friends, asking about what I'm going to do with my genitals. I know that I'll never have any chance at a normal life, something that's eluded me for the past five decades, unless I go stealth once I have my facial fem surgery and go full time. It's not a happy thought that I have to leave my home and start anew, but being a human curiosity isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I feel that any admission of your trans status will open me up to more of the same. And let's not forget the difficulty it will cause with dating. Sure, it's important to be honest with your partner, especially if you're dating men, but I wouldn't want to put them through the whisper campaign calling into question their masculinity for dating me.

Then again, how will we ever become equal, if we're not out? How can we break down the stereotype if we're not open about our struggle. 

My 2¢: Trust me, people eventually get over it and you'll stop being interesting in a while. Regarding the questions about your junk: umm, if you want to be out and trans, you're really going to have to take things a little more easily. Fortunately, like the peoples reactions to you, you'll eventually get used to it and be able to shrug it off with nary a bad feeling.

[suzifrommd]

This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people.
...
There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.

Thinking again of this - I think there was not that much wrong with what she did.

Yeah, it's rude but most people don't really know that it's rude nor do they know why.

I definitely found these posts food for thought. What she did was not awful, not hateful, not transphobic, not anything that would make me think less of her. In fact I did send her a PM telling her how much I enjoyed the outing and thanking her for organizing it.

But should she have known not to comment on it?

I liken it to someone who has a physical characteristic that they've obviously taken great pains to hide. For example a facial blemish that has taken copious layers of makeup, sparse hair covered up by a wig, someone wearing long sleeves to cover up a burn, etc.

Most people would agree that decorum dictates being silent. Even if you feel like you're doing them a favor by letting them know that their concealment job is not complete. Especially at a table full of people (where the OP took place) where she would be calling attention to whatever is being concealed.

Note that this just makes her a little indecorous, not evil, not sociopathic, not transphobic etc. I still plan on being friendly if I see her again (though if we become friends, I may point out the faux pas sometime.)

[suzifrommd]

Here's my takeaway from this discussion and situation:

1. If I hang around LGBT folks, I should expect to be read. I only pass well to people who are not used to trans folks.

2. Asking whether I'm transgender, however it is done, is intrusive but forgivable.

3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.

Here's what I going to do next time someone asks me that:

I'll answer "Where would I know her from?"

If they give a straight answer, like "she goes to the xxx meetup", if I really do know her from there, I'll answer directly. If not, I'll say "I don't know any <name> from that meetup."

If they just say something like, "she seems like your kind of person" I will ask in the most lighthearted way I can manage, "Do you always ask people whether they know random friends of yours?" Does tend to violate my rule about always trying to help people feel comfortable in my company, but given that their question is intrusive, I feel kind of justified.

In none of these cases am I lying, but I neither confirm nor deny that I know the person.

[Lexi Belle]

Here's my takeaway from this discussion and situation:

1. If I hang around LGBT folks, I should expect to be read. I only pass well to people who are not used to trans folks.

2. Asking whether I'm transgender, however it is done, is intrusive but forgivable.

3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.

Here's what I going to do next time someone asks me that:

I'll answer "Where would I know her from?"

If they give a straight answer, like "she goes to the xxx meetup", if I really do know her from there, I'll answer directly. If not, I'll say "I don't know any <name> from that meetup."

If they just say something like, "she seems like your kind of person" I will ask in the most lighthearted way I can manage, "Do you always ask people whether they know random friends of yours?" Does tend to violate my rule about always trying to help people feel comfortable in my company, but given that their question is intrusive, I feel kind of justified.

In none of these cases am I lying, but I neither confirm nor deny that I know the person.

I really think you should also consider the highly likely situation where you are misinterpreting her intentions or thoughts.  It's one thing to 'feel' like it was them reading you, or intruding for information but WHAT IF they were honestly trying to settle a random memory of you?  It might not seem plausible to you, because the way transsexuals tend to think is that people are always going to think about who is reading them, or who is noticing them and THAT is usually what ends up outing them to begin with.  I've seen time and time again, pff. In high school it happens daily where people will ask if you know a certain friend because they recognize you, or a teacher.  If she knows you are an active member of the LGBT community then of course, she might try to correlate you back to a big figurehead in the community that she knows. So, since she knows this trans individual, does that suddenly mean she's coming out as transsexual?  You've got to look at it from other perspectives too.

Just my thoughts.

[suzifrommd]

I really think you should also consider the highly likely situation where you are misinterpreting her intentions or thoughts. 

Certainly worth considering. Highly likely? Not sure how you arrive at that assessment.

I'm pretty certain I understood what she was asking me. Especially given what she said about "you're tall and she has a lot of tall friends". As for the guy that asked me something similar the week before, with him I talked about it so I know for a fact he read me as trans.

[Eva Marie]

3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.

One thing that strikes me about the kinds of responses you listed is that they can be taken as you being a bit defensive about the subject. The person's curiosity might then get raised and you want to avoid doing that.

A way to deal with these kinds of questions might be to come up with some kind of a casual offhand response followed by a deft redirect in the conversation - something like "no, i've never heard of that person before - and hey, i've been meaning to ask you about.....". This redirects the focus of the conversation back onto the person who asked the question and it dismisses the offending question at the same time. By the time that the person realizes that you completely avoided the question it will be far to late and very awkward to reintroduce it again.