Help with my face and passing!

[Ataraxia]

I need help...I see myself in some pics and I feel that I definitely don't pass, but I can't say exactly why, so I don't know what needs to be fixed, or if hormones will do anything to feminize my face. I feel like my eyebrows might also be playing a part in the unfemininity of my face, but when I picture myself with my eyebrows plucked I don't see that big a difference...

I also keep thinking my lips have something to do with it, that they're too large. But everywhere I read says that larger lips are actually more feminine rather than less.

I think I may end up doing make-up, but since  I can't figure out what it is about my face that looks so masculine, I don't know how to apply the make-up to hide the masculine features.



Can anyone tell me what it is about my face that makes me unpassable?

[Evolving Beauty]

1.The major thing that betrays you about your face is your FOREHEAD. A very prominent brow ridge which bio women do not have and and squarish forehead. You need an upper forehead surgery but if you can't afford for now you NEED to wear a wig with fringes to cover the ENTIRE forehea. An you cannot at the base remain with short hair like this. All women are stereotype with long hair. Either wig or extensions.

2. You nee a rhinoplasty to make your nose finer.

3.Maybe more chin & jaws surgery to make it finer

Your lips is fine but at a glance it's all about your short hair and forehead and where are you boobs padding girl? 

[Ataraxia]

Thank you for your reply and your detailed evaluation. I don't do pads or wigs. I'm waiting for my hair to grow so I don't have to wear one. Same thing with pads, I've been on hormones for a month. I'm trying to look passable without long hair before I look passable with it (since most women look like women regardless of their hair length). Even with my hair longer I'll still have the same face (though it will slightly repair my face since I have the option of a bang).

[Cindy]

To be honest the dark hall way means I can't see you well.

Nice lips (to die for!)

You have a strong but cute face.

But the shadow effect is too much to make out your features.

Need a better photo!

[Ataraxia]

2. You nee a rhinoplasty to make your nose finer.

3.Maybe more chin & jaws surgery to make it finer

Also, what does "finer" mean? More symmetrical?

To be honest the dark hall way means I can't see you well.

Nice lips (to die for!)

You have a strong but cute face.

But the shadow effect is too much to make out your features.

Need a better photo!

Thank you for your response and for your compliment on my lips and my face. I guess there's not much ambient light in the room The only light is coming from directly above, and some from the left side.

Did you mean a cute girl face or a cute guy face?

[anjaq]

I would not too soon get hung up on surgeries. In the photo it looks like you do have some brow ridge, but light from above always makes a face harder and emphasize such features. You should get a better picture, maybe also a half-profile . Trying to be passable with short hair is admirable but dont count on it. For a while I wished I could be a short haired slightly tomboyish lesbian and still get away with it - I gave that up. Would not have worked out and I was not butch enough for that - so my advice would be to not think surgery first (though you may want to get a professional opinion on what could be done in that respect, if needed) but to do more soft changes. HRT is certainly helping after some months, brow plucking is helping a lot, hairstyle is also helping a lot. Try those first.

[Ataraxia]

I would not too soon get hung up on surgeries. In the photo it looks like you do have some brow ridge, but light from above always makes a face harder and emphasize such features. You should get a better picture, maybe also a half-profile . Trying to be passable with short hair is admirable but dont count on it. For a while I wished I could be a short haired slightly tomboyish lesbian and still get away with it - I gave that up. Would not have worked out and I was not butch enough for that - so my advice would be to not think surgery first (though you may want to get a professional opinion on what could be done in that respect, if needed) but to do more soft changes. HRT is certainly helping after some months, brow plucking is helping a lot, hairstyle is also helping a lot. Try those first.

Thank you for your response. I have been advised that it is impractical to rely ob hair to pass, because a masculine face without a feminine hairstyle is still a masculine face with one (with the sole exception of a bang covering a portion of the forehead) the face is unaffected by hairstyle. Since the only thing I can do about my hair and HRT effects is wait, aren't I better off fixing my face in the meantime?

[anjaq]

Look - HRT yes of course, you can wait that out a bit more. Facial surgery is a big step and it has risks, so I would not do that for a while longer, unless you really think it is essential to continue. Some facial features can be hidden or improved by brow plucking and hairstyle. It does not have to be all femme, but at least not all guy-ish. And it does not have to be so you rely on it forever, though many of us do that because not everything we may see as a male feature can be corrected. At least however it is a temporary solution that is almost free and helps at this moment in time. IMO to really know if you need or want facial surgery, it makes sense to at least have done some long time HRT and possibly some living in the target gender. It takes time to get a female face and expression and the way one gets there is by living not as a guy anymore. Maybe then you will find that you need FFS and can get it then, but I would just not rush it, especially not by the impression one rather bad picture gives.

So I guess I want to say 2 things: give us a better photo or several ones. And dont see FFS as the first step before doing other stuff like coming out, doing HRT etc. but rather as something that will improve the situation later. Thats how I see it, I know others differ and some actually did FFS before ever presenting as female to others. I am not sure how good FFS is, but I somehow doubt that all of the patients will be able to walk around with next to no hair in a male outfit and be clearly gendered female. Some may be - maybe many. I dont know that. Still I would advise to try other things first and then give your transition some time to develop and then reevaluate.

[Ataraxia]

it makes sense to at least have done some long time HRT and possibly some living in the target gender. It takes time to get a female face and expression and the way one gets there is by living not as a guy anymore

Ok. What I'm not understanding though is how do you develop a female face just by living as a female? Like how does your face actually change by the way you live? I'm sorry if I'm completely thick, I'm just trying to understand this as best as I can.

[Ms Grace]

The hormones will have a feminising effect on your face, round it out and make the skin smoother. Once you start passing in public you'll probably pick up tricks for eyebrows, lashes, makeup, hair, jewellery, etc. Passing is about more than your face though, sure it's important, but it's the whole package that helps you win the day...

[Jennygirl]

Hormone replacement therapy or HRT (seeing an endocrinologist to get estrogen) could potentially change your face enough that it would pass. If not, there is always facial feminization surgery (FFS).

Some people get big changes from a long time on HRT, while others might end up wanting a little or a lot of surgery. Usually it's a good idea to see if hormones will work first because it is non-surgical. Plus, no amount of surgery will make your skin thinner, redistribute the fat on your face, or change the muscular contours like hormones do. It's a subtle but sometimes profound effect depending on the individual. Having FFS prior to being on hormones is generally not advised by most people, although some FFS surgeons will tell you it doesn't matter if it's just bone work you want to do (brow/chin).

With hormones here are some of the possible feminizing facial effects
• thinner, softer skin
• thinner muscles around the brow (softened brow ridge)
• softened muscles & fat along the jawline
• more fat stored in cheeks
• slightly thinner nose (due to skin becoming thinner)
• "starry eyes"
• softer chin
• less facial hair growth
• increase in head hair growth
• rounder overall appearance

[anjaq]

Ok. What I'm not understanding though is how do you develop a female face just by living as a female? Like how does your face actually change by the way you live? I'm sorry if I'm completely thick, I'm just trying to understand this as best as I can.

Ah no not like that. The effects of HRT are described good by Jenny there. Your milage may vary though, but it is worth waiting before looking at other things. What I meant was more about passing in general. This is not only about the face but also about body language an in terms of face it is also about mimics and expression. I found for myself (and that is just my experience mind you), that I had a very "stone face" expression pre transition due to pretending to be a guy (which for me basically translated in not showing facial expression or emotions among other things as a crude pseudo male approximation). And men tend(!) to have less facial expression or at least a different one than women. In and after transition I found that my facial muscles mve all over the place. You can literally see exactly how I feel like just from looking at my face. And I think this is good in overplaying some of the features that look masculine. I found that in pictures I still dont like my face, but I believe that is because it does not capture these expressions. Same with the other body language... And I think that some of these facial expressions and changes in body language just come with time once one has come out and starts transitioning and remembers some stuff naturally or picks up other stuff from other women. Again, that is just IMO and how I experienced. It does of course NOT mean that your face will physically change by living in your gender. For that, there is HRT and if neded FFS.

[androgynouspainter26]

If you ask me, I'd say that with a little bit of makeup, different clothes, and longer hair, passing is well within your reach.  You have the same eyes that I do-fairly deep ones, with a heavy brow.  I use a makeup slightly paler than my skin tone to bring my eyes out-a general rule (not sure if you know) is that lighter makeup brings a feature forward, and darker makeup makes it appear smaller.  I.E, put darker makeup on the sides of the nose and lighter makeup on the bridge to make it appear finer.  I'd recommend highlighting your eyes and your chin to bring them forward.  In the end, it gets as simple as lighter tone/darker tone.  It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you figure it all out it becomes easy.  Also, look up videos on youtube for this-it helped me immensely.  In the end, a lot of it does come down to hair and clothes.  As someone who chose never to wear a wig, I understand where you're coming from; you may have to wait for things to grow a bit though.  And anyone who says you need surgery to pass is dead wrong-I've done enough drag makeup to tell you that almost anyone can pass if they know enough about makeup and have time.  Best of luck to you!

[Melissa_fox]

i would say wear a hairstyle to cover your forehead and you'll see a huge difference.

[Sophiabutterfly09]

  Hormones are powerful  I recommend Estrogen injections and Spiro (potent mixture) give the hormones time, then decide if you want FFS

[melanie maritz]

To me : Your chin looks fem, your lips look great and you nose looks like Beyonce's (dunno if it's just me)
The things that grab my attention is your brow area and also your jaw at the side flares outward.

I also think that wearing a wig will make a difference, I get what you mean that you feel you'll just look like a guy wearing a wig, but it makes a huge difference with my face and I refuse to go without a wig till my hair gets longer ,

plus: I pass a lot with a wig on (if I keep my mouth shut) but I KNOW I won't pass without it. not only does it hide my brow area, but I also feel that it gives a softer look to my jaw line.
               

[Ataraxia]

To me : Your chin looks fem, your lips look great and you nose looks like Beyonce's (dunno if it's just me)
The things that grab my attention is your brow area and also your jaw at the side flares outward.

I also think that wearing a wig will make a difference, I get what you mean that you feel you'll just look like a guy wearing a wig, but it makes a huge difference with my face and I refuse to go without a wig till my hair gets longer ,

plus: I pass a lot with a wig on (if I keep my mouth shut) but I KNOW I won't pass without it. not only does it hide my brow area, but I also feel that it gives a softer look to my jaw line.
               

Hi Melanie. Your feedback here is really helpful, thank you! I'm glad to hear that all the things you mentioned are things that can be changed with hormones. I had to get off them after only 2 months because of circumstances beyond my control. Hopefully I'll be starting again soon. I thought for sure I would need FFS but I'm a bit more optimistic now that I won't need it

My hair's also grown a lot since this picture. I think by now it's at the short end of the female range. I expect it to be shoulder length by next year at the rate it's growing

[Umiko]

Honestlu, i to am afraid i wont pass though my aura is no doubt fem. Once you figure it out, lemme in on your secret!

[Ataraxia]

Honestlu, i to am afraid i wont pass though my aura is no doubt fem. Once you figure it out, lemme in on your secret!

Well I think the only secret is just hormones lol. Are you on HRT yet? It will help a lot I'm sure.

[Emily1996]

I don't know how long your hair got but maybe trying to get a bang?