Hypothetical Questions.

[Ltl89]

I have a few hypothetical questions for educational purposes about intersex conditions and what  may or may not qualify.

If someone had a genital defect during their adolescence that required corrective surgery and they have had trans feelings throughout most of their entire life, what is the likeliness of them being intersex?  Also, if this person (male assigned at birth) had noticeably low testosterone levels without any medical aid, would that also be an indicator of something?  Should they notice other signs?    And is there anything that would cancel this out?  What about if they had a "somewhat" normal "male" puberty? Wouldn't that be an indicator that there are far better explanations for this instead?

If this hypothetical person ended up being intersex, despite the unlikeness of such as event, would that change or alter their treatment of Gender Dsyphoria?  Say that they were transitioning, would they have to transition from mtf or ftm under different medical circumstances or could they follow the traditional path that most trans people go through?  Is SRS a possibility for people that have had corrective surgery earlier in their life?  Any medical roadblocks or things that are relevant for them to be aware of?  Also, if they are transitioning to a different sex than the one they were assigned at birth, they are still trans, right?  While I realize this is a sensitive topic for most intersex individuals, I'm just curious if you can be a trans intersex individual as well as a non-trans intersex person.  Do any identify as such?

Any knowledgeable feedback would be appreciated.  Also, I would love some reading material to help me learn more about this topic for educational purposes.  If you can find something, please try to find the most dumbed down links because I hate detailed medical jargon; although, now that I will be soon working in that field I should get used to it, lol.

[Ltl89]

Forgive me for bumping my own thread, but I wanted to add an additional question.

If the person in the first post is possibly intersex, which again I realize is not likely, what particular conditions (if any) does this sound like it could describe?  Again corrective surgery was possible in the scenario above, so things afterwards were deemed "fixed" for the most part.  That would lead me to believe this person doesn't have such a condition, correct?

Sorry for the vagueness, I'm just trying to learn a bit about this community and how they would be distinguished from someone in the trans community who also had a genital defect during their adolescence.  I believe there must be differences and would like to learn what they are for educational purposes.

Thanks.

[Flan]

The chance of being intersex depends on the nature of the surgery performed since there are varying degrees of genetic or anatomical "abnormality".

(http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1687-9856-2013-7.pdf)

The ability to have reassignment surgery also depends on the previously performed intervention. The worst case scenario of removal of malformed male genitalia (vaginoplasty) on a person who eventually has a male gender identity generally limits the person to phalloplasty unless erectile tissue is preserved for meta. Vaginoplasty on a person assigned male surgically depends on what is available materials wise and surgeon's technique (where a vaginal agenesis treatment will probably produce better results but is more difficult to get performed).

[Ltl89]

The chance of being intersex depends on the nature of the surgery performed since there are varying degrees of genetic or anatomical "abnormality".

(http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1687-9856-2013-7.pdf)

The ability to have reassignment surgery also depends on the previously performed intervention. The worst case scenario of removal of malformed male genitalia (vaginoplasty) on a person who eventually has a male gender identity generally limits the person to phalloplasty unless erectile tissue is preserved for meta. Vaginoplasty on a person assigned male surgically depends on what is available materials wise and surgeon's technique (where a vaginal agenesis treatment will probably produce better results but is more difficult to get performed).

Thanks for the input Flan.  See, the hypothetical situation I'm thinking of is a bit ambiguous.  Most people I see are either clearly intersex or not.  This is a scenario where it's possible based on what I've read, but unlikely due to the general probability of it and not every single sign being present.  So, it's not really clear one way or the other and leaves me a bit confused on how to judge this scenario.  Still, the omission of some traits and the amount of success in the corrective surgery leads me to believe that this is unlikely, even if there are some similarities.  But I'm not really qualified to make such an assessment. 

As for the corrective surgery, in this scenario, things were "fixed" for the most part.  It's functional and pretty "normal" (in the best sense of the word) after the surgery, so I would imagine SRS wouldn't be an issue for the person in the above hypothetical; however, I'm no surgeon, so that's why I"m looking it up and trying to learn. 

Again, thanks for the info.

[Jamie D]

I can't really qualify as giving "knowledgeable feedback," but I can say that the definition of an intersex condition has expanded over time.  Part of that has come from the development of medical technology, genetic studies, psychology, and the recognition of natural variations.

It used to be, in ancient times (see my avatar), that the presence of male and female secondary sex characteristics in an individual was defining for a hermaphrodite.  Times have changed.

We have to keep in mind the classifications such as "male" or "female" represent humans' best attempt at creating order or sense out of nature.  And that is not bad as classifications go, as it works over 99% of the time.  But for those of us in the other <1%, it can be distressing, because it tends to invalidate our identity.

[JLT1]

Wow, those are complex questions

Short answer – maybe.

Long answer:  There are 26+/- intersex conditions; some would require surgery and some would not.  It's too broad of a category to make more than basic observations.

Surgery used to be (and sometime still is) conducted on the infant in the first few months of life.  Now, where there is doubt about the sex, it happens at two years or even older.  In some cases, there would be minimal scarring or scars that would fade away, becoming invisible, in other cases, there would be noticeable scars even much later in life.

If a person had a definitive genital defect during adolescence that required surgery and had had a feeling of being the wrong sex, that would be highly indicative of a link.  It would not establish the link.  Many people born intersexed and "assigned" a sex seem quite happy with the assignment.  Many are not happy with the assignment.  Noticeable deficiencies in testosterone levels are, by themselves, not definitive for anything particular and there are a number of intersexed individuals that go through puberty without any problems what so ever.  It all depends on the specific condition and the severity of the condition.  The number of conditions and the varying symptoms of those conditions would mean that a person may never know or a person may learn of it during puberty or they may learn of it later in life.

I can say from experience, the doctors and the psychologist have separated my condition from my dysphoria and for practical purposes are treating them totally separately.  Surgery will be slightly different but not bad.  Transitioning from male to female seems much the same.  I have 95% of the same problems.  I consider myself to be female who would be under the transgender umbrella.  Some intersexed people who identify as the assigned gender do not identify as trans.

From my experience, the intersexed "community" does not like trans folk.  At all.  They also do not welcome me.  At all. Here, I have found a home and although slightly different, am far more similar than I am to most in the intersexed community.
I have a link to a really good 1-hour special on intersexed people that I will post once I get home.

Wishing you well and a happy that things seem to be going better (I do read your posts but do not often respond).  You stuck with it when I would have run.  You are amazing.

Hugs,

Jen.

[Ltl89]

I can't really qualify as giving "knowledgeable feedback," but I can say that the definition of an intersex condition has expanded over time.  Part of that has come from the development of medical technology, genetic studies, psychology, and the recognition of natural variations.

It used to be, in ancient times (see my avatar), that the presence of male and female secondary sex characteristics in an individual was defining for a hermaphrodite.  Times have changed.

We have to keep in mind the classifications such as "male" or "female" represent humans' best attempt at creating order or sense out of nature.  And that is not bad as classifications go, as it works over 99% of the time.  But for those of us in the other <1%, it can be distressing, because it tends to invalidate our identity.

Thanks Jamie.  I realize that there are so many conditions out there, that it makes it hard to detect what falls into the intersex category.  I'm just wondering about that hypothetical scenario, but I realize this is sort of ambiguous and it's hard to say a yes or no. 

Wow, those are complex questions

Short answer – maybe.

Long answer:  There are 26+/- intersex conditions; some would require surgery and some would not.  It's too broad of a category to make more than basic observations.

Surgery used to be (and sometime still is) conducted on the infant in the first few months of life.  Now, where there is doubt about the sex, it happens at two years or even older.  In some cases, there would be minimal scarring or scars that would fade away, becoming invisible, in other cases, there would be noticeable scars even much later in life.

If a person had a definitive genital defect during adolescence that required surgery and had had a feeling of being the wrong sex, that would be highly indicative of a link.  It would not establish the link.  Many people born intersexed and "assigned" a sex seem quite happy with the assignment.  Many are not happy with the assignment.  Noticeable deficiencies in testosterone levels are, by themselves, not definitive for anything particular and there are a number of intersexed individuals that go through puberty without any problems what so ever.  It all depends on the specific condition and the severity of the condition.  The number of conditions and the varying symptoms of those conditions would mean that a person may never know or a person may learn of it during puberty or they may learn of it later in life.

I can say from experience, the doctors and the psychologist have separated my condition from my dysphoria and for practical purposes are treating them totally separately.  Surgery will be slightly different but not bad.  Transitioning from male to female seems much the same.  I have 95% of the same problems.  I consider myself to be female who would be under the transgender umbrella.  Some intersexed people who identify as the assigned gender do not identify as trans.

From my experience, the intersexed "community" does not like trans folk.  At all.  They also do not welcome me.  At all. Here, I have found a home and although slightly different, am far more similar than I am to most in the intersexed community.
I have a link to a really good 1-hour special on intersexed people that I will post once I get home.

Wishing you well and a happy that things seem to be going better (I do read your posts but do not often respond).  You stuck with it when I would have run.  You are amazing.

Hugs,

Jen.

. 

Thanks for sharing Jen.  This was a very helpful post!  Yeah, it seems that this hypothetical is ambiguous at best with no clear cut answer.  It's very confusing as it could go either way, but I'm still leaning towards the better explanation hypothesis. Though I am glad to hear that it's possible for an intersex person to medically transition without really needing to alter the traditional program.  At the end of the day, it doesn't seem to matter much in this case, so there is probably nothing to fear or worry about.   That should provide relief to some out there. 

I'll be interested in watching that documentary.

P.S.  Thanks for the compliments!

[JLT1]

LTL,

I think this is the video. I downloaded it a while back and now the link I had of no longer active. 

http://www.tigerdevorephd.com/2000/12/31/is-it-a-boy-or-a-girl/