Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

[Alisha]

I found this article on the journal of endocrinology & metabolism.
this article made me more confident to become a woman because i really am a woman.

this is the link, feel free to read:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?

[RavenMoon]

the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?

Interesting article, and it seems very thorough. This is not the first time I have read of the brain differences. You have to consider that not that very long ago was it discovered than males and females have differences in their brains. Enough so that gender can be determined from looking at the brain alone. But these differences in transsexuals was probably not looked for. It makes perfect sense to me. I think like most of the women I have known in my life, and that was not from being raised that way.

This tragic story (in this article written by my friend Victoria) illustrates this point:

http://tg.victoriaescher.com/nature-versus-nurture-story-david-reimer-dr-john-money/

You have twin brothers. An incompetent doctor ends up damaging David Reimer's penis so badly during a circumcision (it was burnt off), that they did SRS on him at age 6 months, and raised him as a girl. When the age of puberty came along they gave him E. But, he never felt like he was a girl, because his brain wasn't a female brain. In 1997, he underwent treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He got married to a woman, and in 2004 committed suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[anjaq]

It is from 2000, so not that new. There are some others that support this I think. No way that I know of yet to check this on a living person.
Hey, I had another MRT yesterday - I wonder if the scientists could look at a number of them from transpeople if they could find more differences there

[RavenMoon]

OK, you lost me on that acronym... what's an MRT?

[Christine167]

OK, you lost me on that acronym... what's an MRT?

I'm guessing MRI for magnetic resonance imaging. It's often used to measure brain activity and be done in conjunction with other tests during the scan.

[anjaq]

yes - MRT is MRI, I think (t=tomography / i=imaging). Had me checked for any weird stuff because of my migraines. Found nothing luckily, so its "just" a migraine.
The last time they did that to check if i am really trans or if I have a tumor or something like that which causes me to just think I am (I guess)

[RavenMoon]

Oh! I've seen the T used in CAT scan but not MRI.

I also get migrains. Got them since I was a kid. In fact back then I got them daily. I was telling this to a friend who is a nurse, and suffers from them also, and she said "that's odd, usually it's only girls that get them like that."

Yep.

[Lexi Belle]

Interesting article, and it seems very thorough. This is not the first time I have read of the brain differences. You have to consider that not that very long ago was it discovered than males and females have differences in their brains. Enough so that gender can be determined from looking at the brain alone. But these differences in transsexuals was probably not looked for. It makes perfect sense to me. I think like most of the women I have known in my life, and that was not from being raised that way.

This tragic story (in this article written by my friend Victoria) illustrates this point:

http://tg.victoriaescher.com/nature-versus-nurture-story-david-reimer-dr-john-money/

You have twin brothers. An incompetent doctor ends up damaging David Reimer's penis so badly during a circumcision (it was burnt off), that they did SRS on him at age 6 months, and raised him as a girl. When the age of puberty came along they gave him E. But, he never felt like he was a girl, because his brain wasn't a female brain. In 1997, he underwent treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He got married to a woman, and in 2004 committed suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Actually, most of the female brain won't ever be in a male's body so long as they have testosterone dominance, there is however very specific areas that DO turn up feminine, and that any TS truly considering transition full time will be EXTREMELY likely to have the mix up in neurons in that specific area.

In time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal female.

[Robin Mack]

Thanks for an interesting article, and great discussion.  Just a random thought: a friend of mine (MTF, full SRS) says that she opted for a "brain scan" in New Mexico rather than going through a year of therapy before SRS... Has anyone else heard of this?  Sounds rather sketchy to me...

[RavenMoon]

Actually, most of the female brain won't ever be in a male's body so long as they have testosterone dominance, there is however very specific areas that DO turn up feminine, and that any TS truly considering transition full time will be EXTREMELY likely to have the mix up in neurons in that specific area.

In time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal female.

You are forgetting that we all start out as female, more or less. So these studies seem to indicate that in transsexual MTF people, parts of the brain developed as in a female.

There is quite a lot that goes on in the early stages of the fetus.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm

[Lexi Belle]

You are forgetting that we all start out as female, more or less. So these studies seem to indicate that in transsexual MTF people, parts of the brain developed as in a female.

There is quite a lot that goes on in the early stages of the fetus.

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm

Yes, and I did put a side note regarding those, was just saying the majority of our brain is actually ultimately effected by hormone levels, the statement I made was there ARE parts of the brain very specifically wired as female, in it's own accord agreeing to what you guys have said.  Just decided to share a little in depth explanation of the OTHER aspects of the brain.  Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.

[RavenMoon]

Yes, and I did put a side note regarding those, was just saying the majority of our brain is actually ultimately effected by hormone levels, the statement I made was there ARE parts of the brain very specifically wired as female, in it's own accord agreeing to what you guys have said.  Just decided to share a little in depth explanation of the OTHER aspects of the brain.  Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.

Yes you did, and I was reading your post on my phone, so I didn't see it well.  lol

[anjaq]

Really, the brain on HRT in the long run changes that much, even in size? Thats a bit hard to believe, I mean as an adult, neurons are sort of formed and probably stay where they are. Was that also in an article? I can imagine some things really do change, given how different the experience of the world is once finally the right hormones cycle through our bodies, but I did not think the change would be that visible in the brain...

In time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal femal
[...]
Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.

If these changes are based on HRT, how does this make anyone "true" - would not all who get HRT in the end have these changes? Or were you referring to the OP article about the small region that they looked at there which does not change?

[Lexi Belle]

Really, the brain on HRT in the long run changes that much, even in size? Thats a bit hard to believe, I mean as an adult, neurons are sort of formed and probably stay where they are. Was that also in an article? I can imagine some things really do change, given how different the experience of the world is once finally the right hormones cycle through our bodies, but I did not think the change would be that visible in the brain...
If these changes are based on HRT, how does this make anyone "true" - would not all who get HRT in the end have these changes? Or were you referring to the OP article about the small region that they looked at there which does not change?

The small region with the certain gender assignment does NOT change. EVER.  It will permanently be assorted with the specific make-up of whatever gender it was formed in to.  So, no.  But that also doesn't mean people without that can be trans.  I just have a feeling most if not all, do have that neuron difference. I'll try to find the study I read about it, but yes.  There are distinct differences between sizes and proportions between the female and male brain, having MTF hrt in time DOES change them to duplicate that of a natal female, the study showed little to no difference between each MTF on HRT and Natal female. Not one of them had a majorly different brain structure, and same goes for FTM.  However, when taking MTF who have NOT been on HRT they have that of a normal biological male.

[anjaq]

Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it

[Lexi Belle]

Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it

I think I have it book marked, I'll post it in here in a bit. Playing FFXIV with my bf!

Well, in the mean time I did a quick google search as I don't want to shuffle through my 100 bookmarks, I found this:
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/09/effects-of-hormones-on-brain.html

Should be interesting until I take the time to find that site.

[Lexi Belle]

Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it

Here you go! http://www.eje.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.full.pdf
There are a few more out there, but this is the one I think I was referencing.

[Jessica Merriman]

As a retired paramedic you CAN trust the information in the Journal of endocrinology. It was required reading in class. Info from this and the New England journal of Medicine are very accurate.

[Lexi Belle]

As a retired paramedic you CAN trust the information in the Journal of endocrinology. It was required reading in class. Info from this and the New England journal of Medicine are very accurate.

Hey, I have a question for you- hoping you might be able to sort something out.

I'm currently trying to get my endo to consider a Progesterone addition to my HRT (while also removing the need for spiro)
I was wondering if the information on Progesterone's support on the overall feminization of the body is in any way accurate?

I know the main argument of concern is usually breasts- but I've also heard the E with P collaborates in overall shape and design of your body when it comes to feminizing.   Do you have any knowledge on this?

[Jessica Merriman]

Sorry. I am only 7 weeks into HRT and I am learning a lot as well. Pretty lost still myself.