Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

[Lexi Belle]

Sorry. I am only 7 weeks into HRT and I am learning a lot as well. Pretty lost still myself.

Darn!  Aw well. She scheduled a phone appointment to talk about it, so we'll see what happens in 3 days!

[victoria n]

 nobody knows what causes transsexualism. it is  like asking what causes people to be gay.
that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.
an article
'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF  TS have for the most part,   the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females  who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion  that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "
the problem is thought to be a body self perception problem. you have to read the article.

another study found the white matter. of mtf ts is somewhere between male and female.

Transitioning was invented  for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.

[Lexi Belle]

nobody knows what causes transsexualism. it is  like asking what causes people to be gay.
that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.
an article
'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF  TS have for the most part,   the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females  who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion  that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "
the problem is thought to be a body self perception problem. you have to read the article.

another study found the white matter. of mtf ts is somewhere between male and female.

Transitioning was invented  for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.

I feel you are mildly misinformed.  This article I posted right here was an actual professional study in endocrinology which implies information that contradicts what you say. PRE HRT yes, MTF TSs and Normal males are exactly the same.  The study was NOT in any way saying that the size of the grey/white matter of their brains had ANYTHING to do with the state of being TS.  It was saying the hormones when given to the opposite sex DO alter the brain to match that of the other gender.

And you are wrong, transsexualism is NOT just some thing that pops up, like "oh hey, I want to be a girl!"
There is definitely some form of mental mix-up. It's the only explanation and there are MANY Neurological studies that make it a plausible theory.  Of course, we will never really know EXACTLY what causes it, but that'll always be the case for neurological mishaps until we somehow start reshaping the brain work of twins, and ya know. I don't think that'll ever happen.

I should also probably point out, it isn't common for a living creature to try and defy the norms off of a whim.  The fact that a male would be willing to chop off what makes him a guy should be deeply seen as weird, because it is weird.  And I guarantee you it isn't off a random thought of wanting to be the opposite sex. 

People don't typically, though it does happen, do these things off of a want or a desire.  This stuff is real, and the cause of it is most likely real.  You can't bury your head in the sand and say, well. This just happens because of how they were raised, or they just think that way because they like girls a lot.  It's probably not true most of the time.

[sam79]

Perhaps this will trigger a memory in someone else, since sadly I forget most of the details...

My endo mentioned to me a study done on identical twins & transexualism. He was excited because the results showed that in the case of identical twins, they were both typically either TG, or not rather than just one. This apparently strongly suggests a physical condition in the brain that determines gender identity.

[Isabelle]

While I do hold the opinion that transsexualism has a neurobiological basis, I'm always a little weary of biological "proofs" The main reason being that, while I identify as a woman with a transsexual past,  I'm first and foremost a transhumanist. By this I mean, I believe all humans have a right to self definition. Imagine being told you couldn't get medical assistance to transition because of your finger length, position in birth order or number of certain types of cells. Our bodies are hideously limited chunks of meat bone and sinew but they are ours to do with what we wish.

[anjaq]

Our bodies are hideously limited chunks of meat bone and sinew

Oh please not that... Ok, I will shut up on transhumanism... totally off topic

that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.

No that is incorrect. I read the article and they did proper controls on MtFs that could not get E for some reason, that chose or were forced to not transition and they compared it as well to non trans men who had been given E for medical reasons like prostate issues. They were very clear that they did proper controls and excluded hormone therapy as a reason.

'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF  TS have for the most part,   the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females  who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion  that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "

Yes i saw that but did not read it yet. I assume they did this study pre-HRT, so they found that one can not detect by MRI if someone is transsexual or not because these structures are seemingly depending on hormones ( at least the article on brains changing on HRT would suggest that)

Transitioning was invented  for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.

This is a rude and opiniated comment and I think this is inappropriate to use here.

People don't typically, though it does happen, do these things off of a want or a desire.  This stuff is real, and the cause of it is most likely real.  You can't bury your head in the sand and say, well. This just happens because of how they were raised, or they just think that way because they like girls a lot.  It's probably not true most of the time.

Yes of course. I hope however that victoria was not implying any of these rather odd ideas about it being purely a matter of choice and expression with her post. This would be quite diminuitive in respect of the very real dysphoria many of us experienced.

[Isabelle]

I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't  off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?

[Lexi Belle]

I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't  off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?

We never said it did. owo;

[Isabelle]

My comment was directed at Anjaq's dismissal of Transhumanism as irrelevant

[anjaq]

I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't  off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?

I will not get into an argument about that. Not in this forum. Just in short, I consider Transsexuality more of a medical issue - like someone who is born without the ability to make a certain hormone or protein and this is fixed with medical procedures. If that is also already transhumanism, then so is giving a man who lost a limb a prosthetic also transhumanist. Transsexuals usually do not go for these procedures because they choose to or because they want to overcome biology, but because they want to be cured of dysphoria. For TG in general this may be different, but the OP was specifically about Transsexuals.
If you want you can open a topic on transhumanism and transgender issues - but this is IMO not topic of this thread and I dont want to derail it.

[Lesley_Roberta]

To specifically respond to this comment from the OP "the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?"

Well considering the article about David Reimer, and how Money clearly thought what he thought as a result of his own feelings and supported by his own training, the danger is that education, while important, is not always enough.

Experts can be utterly and completely wrong. Life doesn't make it that easy.

I have a quite considerable education across a quite considerable array of knowledge. Might not be an expert with credentials in any of it, but, on any given day, I can make any expert work up a sweat defending anything they are an expert in all the same

That said, our brains continue to astound us, and baffle us and contradict what we were certain of before.

[Doctorwho?]

Ironically this week in my medical training we have just finished treating a patient who had suspected gender issues. Obviously we will return to the theme in more detail at a later date, as our spiral of learning continues, but the important point to note is that in a current UK medical education, future doctors, like me, were being taught that this has a solid MEDICAL Aetiology and is not something purely psychological.

As regards the statement that nobody knows what makes someone TS that is a seriously out of date position. It may be still believed and promulgated by older physicians. Doctors, just like anyone else, do tend to recall best the ideas that they were taught when they first learned about a subject. However as medicine is a dynamic and evolving subject, based on evidence and best practice, the current understanding of things is constantly refining.

In the case of disorders of sexual development, as we now describe these conditions, the various pathophysiologies involved are now fairly well established, and evidence demonstrates that this is in fact a cluster of conditions with similar clinical signs. That is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you. Nor should you all expect to share the same treatment and prognosis.

It's a bit like having spots. You can have spots because you have an endocrine condition, chicken pox, measles, skin damage, etc. The having of spots is merely the symptom, and not the disease. The treatment and prognosis is NOT the same for all people with spots.

In short the exhibiting of transgender development is a symptom which can be arrived at due to a number of other causative pathologies. The likelihood is that sooner or later this will lead to far more precise differential diagnosis, and the development of a greater degree of individualisation of treatment options and plans. Rather than the doctor offering you only one possible pathway and outcome, it should become possible to have a greater element of patient choice.

The days of John Money (who incidentally I had the privilege to get to know personally through a mutual friend, and had dined out with on a number of occasions prior to his death) as the great all knowing physician making the big decision for the helpless patient are thankfully long gone in all but the most out of date places. These days we are firmly being taught to diagnose then discuss possible options and outcomes with a patient. It is, after all, your life to lead...

[Lexi Belle]

Ironically this week in my medical training we have just finished treating a patient who had suspected gender issues. Obviously we will return to the theme in more detail at a later date, as our spiral of learning continues, but the important point to note is that in a current UK medical education, future doctors, like me, were being taught that this has a solid MEDICAL Aetiology and is not something purely psychological.

As regards the statement that nobody knows what makes someone TS that is a seriously out of date position. It may be still believed and promulgated by older physicians. Doctors, just like anyone else, do tend to recall best the ideas that they were taught when they first learned about a subject. However as medicine is a dynamic and evolving subject, based on evidence and best practice, the current understanding of things is constantly refining.

In the case of disorders of sexual development, as we now describe these conditions, the various pathophysiologies involved are now fairly well established, and evidence demonstrates that this is in fact a cluster of conditions with similar clinical signs. That is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you. Nor should you all expect to share the same treatment and prognosis.

It's a bit like having spots. You can have spots because you have an endocrine condition, chicken pox, measles, skin damage, etc. The having of spots is merely the symptom, and not the disease. The treatment and prognosis is NOT the same for all people with spots.

In short the exhibiting of transgender development is a symptom which can be arrived at due to a number of other causative pathologies. The likelihood is that sooner or later this will lead to far more precise differential diagnosis, and the development of a greater degree of individualisation of treatment options and plans. Rather than the doctor offering you only one possible pathway and outcome, it should become possible to have a greater element of patient choice.

The days of John Money (who incidentally I had the privilege to get to know personally through a mutual friend, and had dined out with on a number of occasions prior to his death) as the great all knowing physician making the big decision for the helpless patient are thankfully long gone in all but the most out of date places. These days we are firmly being taught to diagnose then discuss possible options and outcomes with a patient. It is, after all, your life to lead...

So, with all that on the table, what exactly was in mind when considering multiple pathways for people in situations such as ours?  What are the causes that were discussed?

[Doctorwho?]

So, with all that on the table, what exactly was in mind when considering multiple pathways for people in situations such as ours?  What are the causes that were discussed?

Regrettably I think a detailed medical discussion is probably way beyond my current level of understanding and indeed would undoubtedly take rather more time than I have to devote to my occasional visits here. I am only a student as yet, so I should probably apologise that my answer is not going to be as detailed as perhaps you might wish, at this point... Give me time to learn my skills.

Briefly the causative pathophysiologies that we were taught were largely genetic, and hormonal. However they were subtle and complex. It is just not as simple as mere chromosomes. There are many physiological pathways involved. There was also mention of the fact that some conditions like bipolar, Schizophrenia, and OCD could sometimes mimic the appearance of Gender dysphoria, but in those cases the symptom was secondary and would disappear once the underlying pathology was treated.

In terms of treatment options for gender dysphoria as a primary symptom, we haven't really got into detailed specifics yet, and indeed as I am not going to specialise in that field I may never do so.

The idea we were being taught through this particular case, lay more around the fact that forcing everyone into a single rigid program (in the case of this condition - therapy, RLE, HRT, SRS etc) was not actually always meeting a patient's need.

The aim of any treatment is to get someone to the point where they can live their life with the minimum level of distress that can be achieved. This could sometimes involve a degree of physical body modification, but there may also be other possible outcomes, such as psychological, and indeed in the future maybe even neurophysiological manipulations that we have not yet even developed.

The main point is that it is up to the individual to make choices. We are being taught that the modern physician's job is to lay out the possibilities, and maybe offer advice. However in a patient lead process it is up to the patient to make the decision as to whether or not to accept that course, or whether to explore other avenues.

[RavenMoon]

That is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you.

Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect for many people there is the same underlying cause, that we don't understand in the least, based on symptoms that are too intricately identical to not correlate. And it's not that we don't understand medicine or the human body to a great extent. But we don't understand the why behind everything. Everything started with the Big Bang. OK, fine. But why? And what initiated it. And what was there before it? We can't answer those questions. And we can't answer other questions either. We likely never will.

This is one of these things you have to experience to know that. Otherwise you are just being analytical. Try explaining "happiness" to someone who's never been happy. Or the color red to a blind person. It's too abstract unless you experience it. Like with shyness. People say; "oh, you will grow out of it, or it's caused by this or that." But often you don't, and it's not for any of those reasons at all. It just is. It's who you are. You learn to work around it. But until you are the shy person, you can't quantify that. I'm also one of those people.

Since gender dysphoria generally shows up in very young children, what you see is that it's always there, but displays when the child is old enough to first be aware of gender differences. And they haven't been conditioned by society yet. I was one of these children at 4 years of age. I just knew something was not right. And my mother was dressing me in the wrong clothes! It has not changed a bit since that time. It's not wishful thinking, or a fetish, or a whim. It's at the core of my existence. I'm a highly intelligent person, and that has not helped at all. I can rationalize and analyze it, and it's still there, and it's still what it is. I'm a female in a male body. It has affected me on each of the 18,980 or so days I've been on this planet (in this lifetime) since becoming arame of it. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in very profound ways. But every single day. Usually not pleasant either. Many TS's take their own lives. I came close on several occasions.

Will transitioning solve all my problems? Absolutely not. It will probably cause new difficulties I have not even thought of (for example I'm all too aware of all the misogyny, and the irrational homo/transphobia in the world. I'm opening a real can of worms here). But for the very first time I will feel like myself, and not trapped in the wrong box. Just the fact that I finally decided to do this has changed my outlook on everything. I'm happier than I have been in a decade at least.

My friend said to me the other day that she suspects that in the not too distant future it will be common place to discuss the transitions of people you know, because it will become easier to do, and more accepted. It's still an awful lot to go through, which shows how dire it is to the people experiencing it. I've never been a patient in a hospital, but I'm ready to go in there and have my face and body altered forever. I'm starting this and I don't even know how I'm going to pay for much of it. But I'll find a way. That's how important this is to me. If I could legally sell a kidney, I would. I'm actually changing careers for this.

Science is great, but lately tends to be very dogmatic. We only know what we know so far, or at least we think we do. And then we think that's everything there is. We understand it all. But we don't. We can observe things. We know the elephant is gray, but not why it's an elephant. We don't know what we don't know. How could we? This is why many discoveries are made by accident. We didn't even know something existed.

The truth is we don't know why this happens to people. We don't even understand consciousness. Some people think we are nothing but biological robots, but that's clearly wrong. It's too simplistic a view. But it is very interesting that scientist can actually spot differences in the brains of people experiencing this. I think most of the causality is not physical in a sense we know however. But it's real none-the-less. I think sometimes it's just that the wrong people end up in the wrong bodies, but we will never be able to prove such a thing. And that's where science falls short.

This could very well be linked with past lives. My daughter insisted her name started with an "M" when she was 2 years old. She didn't know any letters at all, except M. Her mother was writing her name on her new potty chair, hoping it would make her accept it, and she made her write an "M" on it. Who was she before, and what was her name? We never found out and the memory faded from her, as it always does in these cases. Lots of documentation on these kinds of things, but not taken seriously by mainstream Western science.

Incidentally, I was seriously planning on being a doctor when I was younger, but then art and music called me away from that.

[Lexi Belle]

Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect for many people there is the same underlying cause, that we don't understand in the least, based on symptoms that are too intricately identical to not correlate. And it's not that we don't understand medicine or the human body to a great extent. But we don't understand the why behind everything. Everything started with the Big Bang. OK, fine. But why? And what initiated it. And what was there before it? We can't answer those questions. And we can't answer other questions either. We likely never will.

This is one of these things you have to experience to know that. Otherwise you are just being analytical. Try explaining "happiness" to someone who's never been happy. Or the color red to a blind person. It's too abstract unless you experience it. Like with shyness. People say; "oh, you will grow out of it, or it's caused by this or that." But often you don't, and it's not for any of those reasons at all. It just is. It's who you are. You learn to work around it. But until you are the shy person, you can't quantify that. I'm also one of those people.

Since gender dysphoria generally shows up in very young children, what you see is that it's always there, but displays when the child is old enough to first be aware of gender differences. And they haven't been conditioned by society yet. I was one of these children at 4 years of age. I just knew something was not right. And my mother was dressing me in the wrong clothes! It has not changed a bit since that time. It's not wishful thinking, or a fetish, or a whim. It's at the core of my existence. I'm a highly intelligent person, and that has not helped at all. I can rationalize and analyze it, and it's still there, and it's still what it is. I'm a female in a male body. It has affected me on each of the 18,980 or so days I've been on this planet (in this lifetime) since becoming arame of it. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in very profound ways. But every single day. Usually not pleasant either. Many TS's take their own lives. I came close on several occasions.

Will transitioning solve all my problems? Absolutely not. It will probably cause new difficulties I have not even thought of (for example I'm all too aware of all the misogyny, and the irrational homo/transphobia in the world. I'm opening a real can of worms here). But for the very first time I will feel like myself, and not trapped in the wrong box. Just the fact that I finally decided to do this has changed my outlook on everything. I'm happier than I have been in a decade at least.

My friend said to me the other day that she suspects that in the not too distant future it will be common place to discuss the transitions of people you know, because it will become easier to do, and more accepted. It's still an awful lot to go through, which shows how dire it is to the people experiencing it. I've never been a patient in a hospital, but I'm ready to go in there and have my face and body altered forever. I'm starting this and I don't even know how I'm going to pay for much of it. But I'll find a way. That's how important this is to me. If I could legally sell a kidney, I would. I'm actually changing careers for this.

Science is great, but lately tends to be very dogmatic. We only know what we know so far, or at least we think we do. And then we think that's everything there is. We understand it all. But we don't. We can observe things. We know the elephant is gray, but not why it's an elephant. We don't know what we don't know. How could we? This is why many discoveries are made by accident. We didn't even know something existed.

The truth is we don't know why this happens to people. We don't even understand consciousness. Some people think we are nothing but biological robots, but that's clearly wrong. It's too simplistic a view. But it is very interesting that scientist can actually spot differences in the brains of people experiencing this. I think most of the causality is not physical in a sense we know however. But it's real none-the-less. I think sometimes it's just that the wrong people end up in the wrong bodies, but we will never be able to prove such a thing. And that's where science falls short.

This could very well be linked with past lives. My daughter insisted her name started with an "M" when she was 2 years old. She didn't know any letters at all, except M. Her mother was writing her name on her new potty chair, hoping it would make her accept it, and she made her write an "M" on it. Who was she before, and what was her name? We never found out and the memory faded from her, as it always does in these cases. Lots of documentation on these kinds of things, but not taken seriously by mainstream Western science.

Incidentally, I was seriously planning on being a doctor when I was younger, but then art and music called me away from that.

I don't think she was trying to split us up into different categories.  I think what she was really saying is there are many different conditions which would ultimately cause more or less potent feelings or more or less need to change.  She was saying that the extent of the transition to go in regards to the patient, and not loop all transsexuals in to the same exact routine. 

That aside, I do also believe there are some people who actually transition out of talking themselves in to it, I feel it's usually due to something like  ->-bleeped-<- or just a very narrow hatred for men in general.  I've noticed a lot of people like this and it scares me, because I don't think they will be safe and happy come 3 or 4 years.  That hardly comes close to the majority though, which I don't actually think she was saying that a large fraction of people show these symptoms for other reasons.

[Joanna Dark]

I think of it this way: who cares? If you're trans you are trans. It aint going away so focus on transition and being happy cuz if you are like me happiness is something I have rarely, if ever, felt. But since transitioning and getting a BF I finally feel alive. So these qustions don't matter. Cause really it doesn't matter. You matter.

[Lexi Belle]

I think of it this way: who cares? If you're trans you are trans. It aint going away so focus on transition and being happy cuz if you are like me happiness is something I have rarely, if ever, felt. But since transitioning and getting a BF I finally feel alive. So these qustions don't matter. Cause really it doesn't matter. You matter.

It matters because we matter.  Quite simply, it matters because the more and more understanding and truth that is uncovered with things such as this, is the more likely WE will get acceptance. It's a long shot, but it's a shot that matters.

[Joanna Dark]

Well I guess I'm lucky then cause I already am accepted. I pass extremely well so that helps a lot. I mean what does it matter what people think if everything else is fine. But I never experience stares or laughs so maybe if I did I would have a different opinion.

[Lexi Belle]

Well I guess I'm lucky then cause I already am accepted. I pass extremely well so that helps a lot. I mean what does it matter what people think if everything else is fine. But I never experience stares or laughs so maybe if I did I would have a different opinion.

It's a different thing, some people pass just fine. But as soon as someone finds out they're TS. It becomes hell.