Getting over the hate of men (got any advice?)

[Lesley_Roberta]

I hate men, ok not any specific man, but I do indeed hate the gender.

On religious grounds (I consider god a misogynist for example). And thus it is intensely difficult to say a damned thing and not get hostile.

On cultural grounds (I am not amused by how so many cultures think nothing of treating women like crap). So I tend to have no trouble saying really nasty things about most cultures.

On legal grounds (hey I'm from Quebec, and I know of how my mom was cheated out of an inheritance all because she was female). And there's the usual unfair pay and unfair career hassles for women.

On political grounds (so what we have women in politics, so much law is essentially male pandering law). A female president would be so much more impressive than simply a man of colour. Women are far too rare in positions of REAL power.

All of the above, it bothers me though. I want so desperately to be a real woman, not just seen as a guy acting like one. I know I'm for real in here, but I am missing perhaps one of the best parts of being female. I have almost no real reason to experience any of the magic. Ok currently I have NO reason to experience the magic.

I'm not sure what I am sexually speaking. I know I love my wife beyond 100%. I know I prefer girls. Am I really a lesbian? Or is my hatred of men all circumstantial based on the wretched loathsome actions of the worst part of them?

I find myself laughing with a buddy last night, and it was 'no I can't picture being drunk enough, or stoned enough, or drunk and stoned enough to do anything at all with you'. I was not saying that to him as a way of rejecting him specifically (he's actually a nice guy, wish he had someone special), I was just basically expressing my feelings about men.

But it does sort of hurt in a way too. Like some part of life has been ruined for me long before I even knew who I was and what I was.
I don't know how to turn it off. I don't know if I want to turn it off.
But I don't like being so powerless feeling about something so utterly negative in my life.

I walk down the street, and it is not me doing the usual thing so much of all of do, that being worrying people are laughing at us etc etc etc, no, my mind is always imagining some way some guy might hurt me in some fashion by being just a typical man.

[Evolving Beauty]

Me too I hate them and I like to use them only like sex objects and dump them.  They are all fakes and hypocrites and love you only for sex and if they will love you for real they should not know at all you're trans. It's rare a real straight will love you for real unless he's a ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-.

You make me remember an instance when I was cursing a man and telling him 'You men are all the same' and he told me 'STFU you're a man yourself'. What a douche! I never spoke to him again.

[Robin Mack]

I, personally, have a problem with hatred.  I've learned that hating someone gives them more power over me than indifference.  That being said, certain types of men (especially types that remind me of the ones who used to bully me) I have a *huge* problem with.

Just last night, at the movies with my girlfriend, a bunch of "that type" came in.  Loud, joking, mocking each other, overly physical... I found myself starting to shrink into my chair and wish I could hide.  I could imagine them ganging up on me as I left the theater... *shiver*

But at the same time, there are a *lot* of men who are merely unwitting stooges of the patriarchy.  Very few understand the privilege they have in society, but a number of them will listen.  Just as it's not your fault you were (guessing, based on your posts) born with male genitalia as a woman. 

I have a number of lesbian friends who have huge trust issues with men... many who are admittedly androphobic.  And, let's face it, they have reason.  The real issue is that society needs to change.

I used to belong to a church (as a child) that forbade its members to go to movies.  Their reasoning was that the movie industry was full of smut and violence and, as such, they should be avoided.  In recent years, however, they changed their policy.  They discovered that by letting their members spend money on movies that were positive in nature, more of those movies were filmed.  Rather than boycotting, they chose to participate in a positive way.

With that metaphor in mind, I have worked hard to cultivate at least *some* male friends.  I still don't mesh well with *most* males, at least not the ones who play into the stereotypes... I just don't have enough in common.  But the ones who help, who listen, who genuinely work to make the world a better place, to those I give a lot of encouragement and help when I can.  The trick is,  I had to learn the hard way that a person is not defined by their genitalia.  This girl sure as hell is not.

So... you asked for advice, I'll give it freely (and it's worth exactly what you paid for it):  I suggest you look for and find one or two genuinely good guys (like the friend you mentioned).  Not for dating or anything romantic, but just to get to know them.  Be honest; tell them you don't have many male friends, and you feel like you would like to change that about yourself.  Then find some common interests and pursue them, or discuss them... books, karaoke, cooking, shopping, astronomy, sports, you-name-it.  And, while you're at it, try to see the person within, ignoring the body they inhabit.  I suspect that, over time, you may find yourself accepting they *you* inside you more, too. 

*hug*  It's a strange journey we're on... but there are a lot of wonderful people in this world who are ready and willing to help us if we're able to let them.

<3


*small grammar edit

[~RoadToTrista~]

Hmm. Nope I don't. You clearly have strong opinions and I doubt it'll be easy changing your mind. I don't agree with your prejudices and they make me feel pity for you since you can't look at the positives of men. But like you, I have my own. They're from my own personal and emotional experiences that nobody else has had, and I certainly wouldn't change my mind just because someone decided to give me several reasons as to why I should. My prejudice isn't "hate", and over the years it's improved. People are just too different for you to say that you "hate" a group that they're a part of and have no control over.

[Tessa James]

That is great advice Robin.  If we are able to transcend our bodies and allow ourselves to engage with the individual there is a far better chance of a meaningful relationship.  I love some men.  We don't have time to love em all;-)  Our similarities vastly outweigh our differences and painting THEM all with the same color means we loose the ability to appreciate the complexities of being human.

Hatred is self defeating in the long run and we need our energy for better things.  Trust is critical component for any significant relationship and it takes repeated positive instances to build it.
I feel we MtFs actually have an advantage in understanding what is happening to men as they grapple with T and a culture that puts them in a much tighter straight jacket.  We all need that sense of belonging and to feel cared about.  We do not need to be intimate with men to recognize they are half the population and inhabit every corner of the world.  The "festival" not withstanding.

I want and need men in my life and feel we all have a daily opportunity to meet some very nice guys.  Give em a chance to show you some depth and sensitivity.  We can't change the world without partners, allies, family and friends.

[big kim]

I don't hate them all but there are some real wankers among them.Roberta we had a woman Prime Minister in the UK the damage that evil bitch did to the UK is still here

[Taka]

men have given me more than enough reason to hate them as a group. ethnic norwegians have done the same.
but i still don't.

i'm not too sure why. maybe it's because i don't believe in stereotypes. maybe i believe too much in the good in humans (but i don't. i'm more inclined to define us all as evil bastards or whatever equivalent could be used for a woman.)

it could be that i've focused my anger on the persons who've wronged me. i've tried my best not to go there, but eventually i had no other choice than to take it ll out on them in my imagination. killing people in the most sadistic ways feels good in my imagination, though i'd probably feel really bad about doing it for real. got tired of it after a year or two...

i avoid seeing people as belonging to any specific group, and actively look for the good ones. dismiss the bad ones before they have a chance to hurt me. only direct my anger at the ones who really have done harm to me or people i love.

can't say this is how i manage to not hate specific groups of people. i don't have that much insight. but it did help me deal with some serious homicidal hate directed at certain individuals. i've not gotten over it, i'm just able to not obsess over it. i get angry when reminded rather than reminding myself of the anger.

[Heather]

I don't know if I have any real advice that could help you but I do have a question you should ask yourself. Would you look down on someone and prejudge them based on the color of their skin, religion, or any of the other things that people look down on each other for? Men come in all kinds of variety some nice some not so nice just like women.
I really don't know where all the people hating men come off thinking women are perfect and would do things differently if the balance of power was shifted in their favor. I known women who are bad or not worse then men. Neither men nor women deserve to be put up on a pedestal both are imperfect.
Going around hating hating men is going to bring you nothing but pain and misery like all hate does. I really hope you can move past this hate Lesley your really only hurting yourself and I doubt all the men your hating really care you hate them.

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

There *are* good men. Don't give them hatred they don't deserve.

[Lo]

Religious: Not everyone in the world believes in a single male god. Just... no, no, no. If you believe in a misogynist god, that's YOUR belief. Change it if you don't like it. Find a new god. There's plenty out there.

Cultural: A lot of what we would currently consider to be "the patriarchy" is a Western European export. A lot of cultures were much more egalitarian and wouldn't even understand the idea of patriarchy if you explained it to them before white people came and steamrolled everything by colonialism. Knowledge is power, here. Read up on history before you paint with such broad stokes.

Legal: Systemic stuff is awful, yes. But that's not any one man's fault, really. Or at least, any man that you'd ever run into.

Political: Be very careful with implying that sexism is worse than racism. Please just don't even go there. (And not to mention that someone can be of color AND a woman at the same time, wow!) But this has to do with, again, that white colonialist attitude that got spewed all over the place and taken as gospel. Without the cultural, you don't have the legal, and without the legal, you don't have the political. These last three points should really be the same one.

Leslie, I'm going to again recommend that you just educate yourself. It'll really help you broaden your ways of thinking of these things, and hopefully turn your hate into something productive, or at least help you direct it at the people who deserve it. Try picking up 'Feminism Is For Everybody' by bell hooks. It's a tiny book, and it addressed all of your points very neatly.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

I don't want this hate. Like as was mentioned, it poisons a person, and for what good, as was also mentioned, the people I don't like won't care either. I gain nothing from the hate.

I have a number of male friends, some of them are key people in my life. Some of them, I sure wish they were oh so more common place. Some of them are actually not bad looking (and none of them want to know Lesley thinks that way about them hehe).

I have several male friends that are really quite generous. I try to tell them periodically that they are very good people (you need to tell the good ones occasionally eh).

But too many years in too many books saturated in all the ugliness of our species has left some very deep scars on my psyche. Not easy to fill them in and smooth them over.

I have a war going on within me. Part of me of course worries, my wife, she is one of a line of females not known to have long life spans. They also suffer from health aspects that don't help. Me, I come from a line of male persons well the others are more male me at least and they are not known for cashing out early. My father's dad, he outlived 3 wives. I am afraid of being alone intensely.

If my wife passed away in her 60s like seems a popular thing, well that is not what I call the far future either.
I have been wondering, should I have the surgery and get the real thing? Will being all female, hormones and the right part, possibly chill me out some? Do I even WANT to be able to be a woman in bed for a man?

I don't want to grow old alone. And if I end up like so many of my line, I could end up spending 70s and 80s by myself.
And I am not expecting life to replace my wife with a convenient lesbian persuasion TG supportive love interest in this part of the world

Yes I know, damn Lesley you sure know how to be dreadfully gloomy
I have been living the last 5 years at least, miserable. Always thinking my wife will finally be unable to endure me, and leave, and my life would be over. I can't seem to dedicate myself to just about anything. Too much of 'what's the point' in my attitude. I find myself stuck in a rut of not doing anything that is long term. Everything has to be short duration, no major investment of effort.

And my hate is top of the list of things weighing me down, making me see the negative in everything. Climate based topics for instance, it's always a man's fault to me it seems. The military world, all about males being a problem around the world.

I wish I had an easier time feeling hopeful.

My day dreams, they are always flights of fantasy. I dream of situations, like being in a bar, having a drink with a couple of girl friends, and one tells me a guy has been looking me over and over heard him say he thought I was nice looking. Then I come to my senses, yeah right, not in this reality.

Part of me so wants to be able to attract a man I suppose. But it falls flat on it's face when I then can't get past hating them.
It makes me want to cry.

[Robin Mack]

...
I don't want this hate. Like as was mentioned, it poisons a person, and for what good, as was also mentioned, the people I don't like won't care either. I gain nothing from the hate.
...

My day dreams, they are always flights of fantasy. I dream of situations, like being in a bar, having a drink with a couple of girl friends, and one tells me a guy has been looking me over and over heard him say he thought I was nice looking. Then I come to my senses, yeah right, not in this reality.

Part of me so wants to be able to attract a man I suppose. But it falls flat on it's face when I then can't get past hating them.
It makes me want to cry.

I don't know if you have a therapist at this time, but if you do, I would recommend bringing this up to them... helping you deal with and change things in your life is what they do.  (And if you don't have one, I strongly suggest you get one you can be comfortable with, the right therapist can be worth her weight in gold!)

The reason I bring that up is that, through *lots* of therapy, I have learned that often the things I despise in others are a reflection of how I feel about myself.  It's a hard lesson to learn:  I had to learn to love and accept every part of me, even the parts I wanted to change.  I may have dysphoria, but I do accept that there are parts of me that have been with me since the beginning and that have, in some way, made me the person I am today.  Yes, I want to change them, but I do accept them.  I accept that some of the things I can't stand about some people are things that I share, to some degree, or am envious of (want to have). 

The bottom line is that everything I've read, heard, seen, or felt in life so far has indicated to me that the surest way to find love and acceptance is to love and accept yourself.  It's a hard road, but it seems you've made the first step; you've found and admitted to a problem that you want to solve.  Sometimes it helps to have reinforcements; a therapist can help you work things out in your own way by applying their outside perspective and training. 

*hug*  Good luck... you already have something to be proud of.

[Ltl89]

I have been bullied, harassed and beaten up by some men in the past.  Despite my negative interactions with some, I remind myself that they aren't representative of an entire gender.  These bullies were bad people because of their actions; not their race, socio- economic status, religion, ethnicity, or even their gender.  At the end of the day, there are bad people of every group and it's terrible to label a whole category of people because of the actions of a few.  After all, there is good and bad in every community.  Look at it this way, why hate all gay people if you were robbed by someone that happened to be gay?  Sure, the criminal was gay, but that doesn't mean all gays are thieves.  The same mentality can be applied to men and should be to other groups as well.  Good on you for recognizing your prejudice, and I hope you can overcome it.   

[izzy]

I would rather not associate with men who i can not stand then hate them. lifes too short to hate anything for me.

[E-Brennan]

Lesley_Roberta, in general I agree. But let me offer a few thoughts:

First, I get where you're coming from.  Men - well, to be precise, men with conservative political views and strong religious beliefs - are (in my opinion) the source of 99.99% of the inequality in this world.  Whether fundamentalist Christian or Islamic or any other religion, or godless corporate elite or redneck gunhuggers, there is a common thread of suppression and abuse of anything that doesn't look, think, or pee like they do.  Black, female, gay, atheist, liberal, whatever.  If you're not worshipping god or money, you're going to feel the sharp end of the stick.

But I've learned from experience that hatred alone changes nothing.  They thrive on hatred, on having something they can point at and say, "Look at that, trying to destroy what we hold dear.  That's the enemy."

Current federal shutdown as a prime example.

Talking works.  Compromise works.  Education works.  Pushing aside the hatred and actually trying to solve problems, rather than taking sides and taking a higher moral ground, works.

You have a problem with men?  Great.  I'm right behind you. 

But what are you doing to fix it?

With hatred comes a responsibility to make a change.  You want to sit there and hate?  Be my guest, but one is as bad as they are unless one's hatred is coupled with action to make things better for everyone.

The men you speak of are driven by - absolutely filled with - hatred for you (us).  A blanket hatred in return just makes the world a ->-bleeped-<-ter place for everyone.

There's good men out there, and hating everyone with a dick is just too broad a brush to paint with.  I don't think you hate "men".  My god, there's many millions of men out there who should rightfully be detested by progressives and outliers, but there's many millions more who will stand right beside you and me and use their male privilege/power to help us, not hurt us.  There's men out there who will bring their weapons to the fight, and who are proud and respecting of their gay kids, their hard working wives, their mothers, their sons and brothers who put on makeup and declare that they are daughters and sisters.

Again, I'm 100% behind your dislike of a specific type of "man" - one that happens to hold 99% of the power in this world - but trust me, there's countless real men who are feeling as beaten down as you are and who would stand by your side in facing those - am I allowed to say this? - ->-bleeped-<-s.

To end on a more lighthearted note, I think that you actually hate "The Man", not "men".  I too hate "The Man", but I hate nobody who simply happened to have the misfortune of being born with a penis instead of a vagina.

[Sephirah]

Just a thought from reading your posts.

It strikes me that the men you hate are those in positions of power, or control over others. Maybe what you hate isn't so much men themselves, but the power and control you feel they represent. But the two are interwoven in your mind, and it becomes difficult to separate one from the other.

You say that there are those in your life for which you have affection. Who are good people. Maybe because they don't represent this control that you instinctively dislike. And maybe one step towards getting past this would be to try and separate the two, by associating yourself with guys that are just.... well... just guys. Not politicians, or gods, or lawmakers. Power can corrupt. But it doesn't define someone. And if men are in positions where they abuse their power, hate the action rather than the individual. I would guess that were they just Mr Joe Public that you met in the street, they wouldn't be the same person.