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perception of gender

Started by beth_finallyme, May 29, 2005, 01:27:46 AM

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Sandi

Quote from: michelleThis makes it sound like becoming a member of the opposite sex is like joining a club.
We have to sign up and fill out an application before we can join the opposite sex club.

Before we joing we have meet the criteria for joining the opposite sex club.   The majoity of the members of the opposite sex club have to accept us as a member before we become one.

I think you missed my point entirely.

What I posted has nothing to do with your perception that you are female, nor did my post have anything to do with what gender any of us here percieve you as. My post has only to do with how you are preceived by other females outside the TG community.

How you relate/interact with them to their expectations, not ours. That is what determines their perceptions of whether you are in fact female as you say you are, and ultimately true membership as one of them. I should also add that it has very little to do with how you look, and much about how you interact.

Please re-read it carefully and see if you don't get that meaning more clearly. Hope that helps.


Cordially, Sandi
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Svetlana

ah i see, that puts the context around it.
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Terri-Gene

everyone here can find their own answers in time and I take no offense at any shots at me as they are totally irrelevent to me.  I live my life and everyone else is intitled to live theirs.  For a minor explaination of what I have been saying refer to my next lower post and perhaps you will draw some conclusions about what I've been saying.  I had to think twice about editing the original post to include what I have seen for myself and through the eyes of another, but I chose to do so in the event it might help some and if I breached any confidence with Deli, I'll have to face that with her. You people believe and do as you wish, I was just attempting to explain a reality, be it fair or not that it does exist and will be from time to time encountered. Be prepared for it and don't let your emotions overcome your good sense.

I intend NOT to take away from anyones self image, only to point out that other people in society are not bound by any reasonable means to  accept that self image.  Please do not misunderstand me on that point.

Each will learn their own lesson on this issue given time, and unless you have been living in Total full time for some time, years in fact, and associating on all levels of society anything believed at this time is pure speculation.

As for myself, Just knowing for myself what I am has little bearing unless others I wish to associate recognize it for themselves.  It is something I need within myself in order to find my own completeness and I know beforehand that I'm gonna win some and lose some and all I can do about it is try to increase my circle of believers in my own local and avoid the rest.  Thats just the fact of the matter and I don't object to it myself as I am not an invader, I want to be invited and treated as no different.  Something I will never achieve in full but will persue with all my heart.

TG
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Svetlana

lol, i fear i may've mistoke your meaning after all.

ah, communicative language, you most interbarriered of entanglements.  >:( damn thine oftsome thwart!
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Leigh

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Born woman?

Born female but become a woman might be a better way to express it.

I am going to take some liberties with Terri's post and try to interpet it the way I read it.

There is a difference between presenting as female and being accepted as a woman.  A person might live as, work as, do everything as female but still not function as, be a woman. A perfect example is a str8 woman walking into a lesbian bar.  She is given her right as a woman to be in womens space but she is not a lesbian. Transitioning and presenting as female doesn't not automatically grant a person the rights of a woman.  Those rights are given by those you associate with, both men and women.  They are the ultimate judges despite our best wishes.  If ones sole life was work, going to the store and being home would that be living as female or would go going out dancing, dating, socializing, working, shopping and doing every single thing be called being a woman?

You might look like a duck, walk like a duck even quack like one but until the other ducks answer you, you ain't a duck!

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Beth posted:  
QuoteSince transsexuals are 16 times more likely to get murdered, i would imagine we are more likely to get assaulted also.

I was a representative for a womans group to  SMRT (Sexual Minorites Round Table) http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/portland.htm

for a year.  In that year the highest rate of hate crimes was religion based.   There was one instance of a crime against a woman which later proved false.  If the old board was still up I could point you to the post I made then.

That is simply not true percentage wise. We are lsss likely to have any form of violence taken against us.

these were taken from the FBI crime stats.

hate crimes 2002                                                          

                         incidents        offenses    victims offenders    
Sexual Orientation:        1,244          1,464      1,513     1,438
Anti-Male Homosexual     825           957          984       1,022
Anti-Female Homosexual 172           207          221       172
Anti-Homosexual             222          259           267        225
Anti-Heterosexual              10           26             26           6
Anti-Bisexual                    15           15              15          13


------------------------------------
Murder victims
by race and sex-2002

               
      Sex         
Race   Total   Male   Female   Unknown   
               
White   6,757   4,852   1,905   0   
Black   6,730   5,544   1,184   2   
Other race   377   256   121   0   
Unknown race   190   127   41   22   
               
Total   14,054   10,779   3,251   24   


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Svetlana

i hope you didn't base that judgment upon those statistics alone?  they don't explain enough just by themselves.

QuoteYou might look like a duck, walk like a duck even quack like one but until the other ducks answer you, you ain't a duck!

it's pretty but it doesn't really work.  in that situation, all you have are a lot of would-be ducks paddling around looking for other ducks (which they of course never find... only each other... but none of them are ducks yet... so their answering each other doesn't count).

apart from that, it's also a bit silly, to be honest.  a duck's a duck.  having it never engage in conversation with other ducks doesn't suddenly make it a temporary kangaroo or sumn't.
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4years

I sit here trying to answer a question for myself.

Do I need others to justify my feeling that I am a woman?

I honestly don't think I do.

Will I be accepted as a woman? I honestly don't know, but I'll try my best. Because it is something I want to do.

I am me, I really don't care what you think I am.

In essence, I'm a duck. You can call me something else if you like.
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VeryGnawty

QuoteThat is simply not true percentage wise. We are lsss likely to have any form of violence taken against us.

What do you mean by "percentage wise"

Do you mean the percent of all crimes of violence, or do you mean the percentage of transsexual victims compared to the projected total transsexual population?

Considering that transsexuals only make up a small fraction of the total human population, it would be silly to discuss the large amount of hate crimes committed against non-transsexuals, because those crimes would be justified by the sheer fact that there are a hell of a lot more possible victims.
"The cake is a lie."
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Svetlana

it seems like a very messy thing to attempt to statisticalise, anyhow, what with all the issues with how exactly they tell if somebody fits into what category (i assume, only on the basis of what they're told by that person, or maybe even only what they assume with their own prejudices and first impressions).
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beth_finallyme

Hate crimes are hard to classify. If a man beats his wife up for any percieved reason is it a crime against women or just against her? If a transsexual is raped and murdered is it a hate crime or is it just murder? If an afro american is shot in a road rage incident was it because they were afro american or just in the wrong place at the wrong time? I dont think you can always tell. Hate crimes are determined by investigators and prosecutors and subject to their views and predjudices.

Leigh, you know lots more about it than i do, but in 2002 were all states even keeping track of hate crimes against transgendered? I think there is no such crime in some states even now and no data is even gathered.
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Leigh

Estimates of post ops range from 30K to 60K in the US.  Ad in all the other initials under the TG banner and how many millions is that?

Two a week is 104 out of the total population of the US 280,000,000.

There were 3,251 women murdered out of half that many.
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Leigh

#31
Quote from: beth on May 30, 2005, 08:17:38 AM

Leigh, you know lots more about it than i do, but in 2002 were all states even keeping track of hate crimes against transgendered? I think there is no such crime in some states even now and no data is even gathered.

I am sure most are under sexual orientation.  Not right but thats the way it is.

Portland has a huge, very visible Trans presence.  Highly active politically at the city, county and state levels plus support from EVERY G&L group.

I made reference to the SMRT.  It is attended by the Chief of Police or the Asst Chief, representatives from the County Sherrifs dept, and all the major GLBT groups.  If you ask a question and they do not have the answer they will find out and call you with it.

You have to experience what this city is like to believe the freedom that we have here.  When you see the Chief and the Mayor, now former mayor leading the Gay Pride parade you know this is a great city. 

Leigh
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Terri-Gene

 "There were 3,251 women murdered out of half that many."

In other words, more dangerous to be a Woman than G or T.

TG
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Leigh

Liars figure but figures don't lie.
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Terri-Gene

Aint that the truth.  A few years ago with all the flack in here about how dangerous it was to be Trans, I looked up FBI statistics on crimes of violence.  Hate Crime was not figured in, just statistics gathered from local PD's US wide, broken down by Race, relidgion, sex, GBLT etc.  T deaths where relatively low in relation, making them among the safest.  It is just T's tend to take it more personal.

I knew the Trans concerns were overblown, but when I realistically looked at the violence against women, even I was shocked, and I already knew it would be fantastically high, and from experience, I know women don't report half of what happens to them, especially if it involves relatives or people they know, and police don't get called in such cases.

TG
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Svetlana

leigh, your sayings are cute.  oh, come on.  seriously.  figures lie plenty.  there are endless ways of presenting any kind of figures you care to present.  i've certainly not seen anything convincing on this thread yet.

terri, do i have to beg you on my knees to stop treating trans-people and women as two categories which are mutually exclusive?  do you think i'm not worried about violence against women?  it could happen to me just as much as any other woman, you know!  and if you're taking the trans statistics in isolation from the female statistics, wouldn't that kinda automatically push the trans statistics higher in real terms, seeing as there're more trans-women out there than there are trans-men?  and all that stuff you say about people not reporting things and police not becoming involved... did you never consider that that happens to transitioning women as well as non-transitioning women?  you see what i mean now about ways of presenting statistics?

please, i'm asking you nicely, adjust your attitude, for it is just plain incorrect at the moment, and it grates each time you convey it.
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Terri-Gene

 "terri, do i have to beg you on my knees to stop treating trans-people and women as two categories which are mutually exclusive?"

your perception, but as to statistics, like it or not, they are kept by biology.

As to filtering the difference in trans women and trans men and women, well, the figures for women are so hugh, they do not make any real statistical difference in or out and likewise would not affect the T figures by enough to make a significant difference.  Sorry about that.  YOu don't have to like it or not like it, just a fact.

TG

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Leigh

http://www.gender.org/
on the left side of the page under Education click on Remembering Our Dead

Some of these were post, pre, non op, men, sex workers, c/d, tg, eveyone is on this list.

I have no reason to falsify the numbers, they are a fact.



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Svetlana

well i'm not going to beg.  i'll skip over your posts in future if they seem to verge toward that again.  i've asked nicely and i don't know what else to do.  it kinda hurts.  oh but never mind i'll recover, after all none of us here are real women, right?  we're all just ->-bleeped-<-ing pretending or something.  that's right, isn't it?  and you would know better than anybody else because you've been through some things and of course nobody else could've possibly gone through as much as you've been through, so you always know better.

maybe i will go out tonight looking for trouble so that i can demonstrate just how serious it really is.  well this is gotten a bit personal, ban me if you want.  i just give up sometimes i really do.  not like i haven't got enough to deal with in the first place.  we all have thick skins but i'm not a ->-bleeped-<-ing rhinocerous.  well to hell with this.  i might post back in a few months or so i guess.

ps. leigh, i never said you were falsifying anything.  damn have i had it up to here with people always assuming the worst in me.
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beth_finallyme

the figures of 104 of 280,000,000


and 3251 of 140,000,000


comparing them is absolutely meaningless, it assumes everyone in the US is transgendered




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