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What does it mean to be a girl?

Started by Miyuki, October 19, 2013, 06:36:07 AM

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Miyuki

Since coming out to my parents yesterday, I've been thinking a lot harder about the idea of fully transitioning, and what it would mean to me. But something keeps bugging me. What exactly does it mean to be a girl, and why do I even feel like I should be one to begin with?

If you're talking purely from a biological perspective, a girl is defined on a genetic level as a person with two X chromosomes, and no Y chromosome. Of course, we all know what a problematic definition that can be in practice. There are so many people out there who obviously present as female who don't meet this definition. And it's silly to make the whole thing about DNA to begin with, since actual exposure to and sensitivity to hormones is what determines how you develop.

But then how should you define a girl? This is where it gets complicated. You could say that a girl is someone who has long hair, or wears makeup, or dresses with flashy colors and styles, or wears skirts, or has a caring nurturing personality, or even has the ability to bear children. The list goes on. And yet, for any single thing you can name that identifies someone is a girl, you can name at least one girl that doesn't posses that feature. Furthermore, many of those features could apply to people who still identify as male.

So if I am saying that the identity of a girl fits me better than the identity of a boy does, what does that even mean? Does it mean I posses more feminine qualities than masculine ones? Do I just check the scales, see what side is heavier, and go with it? Does it mean that the things girls usually do come more naturally than the things boys do? Sometimes that's true, but not always. I enjoy things like cooking, but I also enjoy science and technology. For the most part I spend more time behind a computer screen that anything else. Socially, do I fit in better with girls? Most of the time I'm socially awkward no matter who it is I'm talking to. I often times find it more intimidating to talk to girls because I'm not used to it. But for girls I know well, it's much easier, and I tend to get along with them pretty well. But it's not like I can't get along talking to boys either. It really depends more on the person than the gender.

The only thing I can really say for sure is, when I look in the mirror and see a feminine face staring back, it makes me feel better. It makes me feel more confident, and it makes me feel like I'm being myself. So is that it? Is that all there is to it? Is the real reason for deciding you need to transition nothing more than being able to feel good about what you see when you look in the mirror? Is that a good reason? Is it the only reason? This has really been driving me nuts lately. It makes me feel like maybe the reason why I want to transition is just to satisfy my own sense of vanity. What do you think? Am I looking at this correctly, or am I missing something important?
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Miyuki on October 19, 2013, 06:36:07 AM
So is that it? Is that all there is to it? Is the real reason for deciding you need to transition nothing more than being able to feel good about what you see when you look in the mirror? Is that a good reason? Is it the only reason? This has really been driving me nuts lately. It makes me feel like maybe the reason why I want to transition is just to satisfy my own sense of vanity. What do you think? Am I looking at this correctly, or am I missing something important?

Transgender folks have a structure in our brains that wants us live as a different gender from the one indicated by our body sex.

That part of my brain doesn't give me a reasons.

It just tells me I need to live as a woman.

I could justify it a billion ways - the way I feel when I'm accepted as a woman, how I feel when I realize I have the breasts I've always wanted, the music of being called by a female name, etc.

But really, that's all just the result of listening to the structure in my brain that dictates my gender.

Many people try to ignore that structure for years, and a lot of them are very literally driven crazy by it. Clinical level depression, anxiety, and suicide attempts are common among those who ignore their transgender. That's how powerful it is.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, Miyuki, but it's the way I experience it.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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FrancisAnn

That is an excellent question. I personally have no real answer however it's just the person I am inside & I cannot explain it. It just feels absolutely necesary to change & improve my body into female.

Francis
mtF, mid 50's, always a girl since childhood, HRT (Spiro, E & Fin.) since 8-13. Hormone levels are t at 12 & estrogen at 186. Face lift & eye lid surgery in 2014. Abdominoplasty/tummy tuck & some facial surgery May, 2015. Life is good for me. Love long nails & handsome men! Hopeful for my GRS & a nice normal depth vagina maybe by late summer. 5' 8", 180 pounds, 14 dress size, size 9.5 shoes. I'm kind of an elegant woman & like everything pink, nice & neet. Love my nails & classic Revlon Red. Moving back to Florida, so excited but so much work moving
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Megumi

I have no real idea what it means to be a real girl. All I know is that within I feel it every day and all throughout the day even though externally I'm male. I was asked that very question last night at my parents house. Then i asked them If you were deaf and blind and had no way for society to tell you who you are then how would you know who you are? They couldn't answer it without saying stereotypes that only we know and have learned over the years. Its all about how you feel on the inside IMO.

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Alainaluvsu

It doesn't really mean anything other than fitting a social mold that mankind has made. I'm insulted by being called a guy the same way most cis gendered females are insulted by being called a guy. The best way I can explain it to cis women is: imagine your brain and everything that makes you - you, From your personality to your ideal way to look to your body to the way you view the world, and could you imagine how embarrassed you would be if you were born in the wrong body. I usually ask them if they had a penis, would they have it removed? Every cis gendered girl basically said under their breath "yeah that sucks".

Being a girl doesn't really come down to anything other than it makes me feel comfortable to be a girl, and insulting to be a guy. Not that there's anything wrong with being a guy and NOT wanting to be a girl, but for ME, I need to be a girl because that is what I am... right down to the core of my spirit.

Oh, and for the record, when I explain it that way to women, they stop treating me like a cutesy gay guy-that's-more-girlfriend type of character that's so novel to hang around (if they were treating me that way in the first place), to treating me like any other female. I know that's not really what this thread is about, but that bit of knowledge may help many of us out in life...
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Miyuki

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 19, 2013, 08:18:27 AM
It doesn't really mean anything other than fitting a social mold that mankind has made. I'm insulted by being called a guy the same way most cis gendered females are insulted by being called a guy. The best way I can explain it to cis women is: imagine your brain and everything that makes you - you, From your personality to your ideal way to look to your body to the way you view the world, and could you imagine how embarrassed you would be if you were born in the wrong body. I usually ask them if they had a penis, would they have it removed? Every cis gendered girl basically said under their breath "yeah that sucks".

Being a girl doesn't really come down to anything other than it makes me feel comfortable to be a girl, and insulting to be a guy. Not that there's anything wrong with being a guy and NOT wanting to be a girl, but for ME, I need to be a girl because that is what I am... right down to the core of my spirit.

Oh, and for the record, when I explain it that way to women, they stop treating me like a cutesy gay guy-that's-more-girlfriend type of character that's so novel to hang around (if they were treating me that way in the first place), to treating me like any other female. I know that's not really what this thread is about, but that bit of knowledge may help many of us out in life...

I guess that's sort of why I'm struggling with this decision so much. I like the idea of being a girl, but I don't always feel like one. I really hate testosterone, I enjoy having a feminine appearance, and I like being more in touch with my emotions. But I'm also too embarrassed to wear a skirt in public, have trouble getting used to feminine pronouns, and I don't really mind peeing standing up (as long as no one is standing next to me while I do it). I worry a lot about my appearance, but I don't really like wearing makeup (or at least I've never tried it). I play male oriented video games, but only if I can play as a female character. I think the problem I'm having is that while I'd like to be seen as a girl, I have trouble accepting myself as one. I'm just too used to thinking of myself as male. I always had this clear idea in my head that a girl was something I wanted to be, not something I was.

...this is why I really need to see a therapist to help me sort things out. I can't tell if I'm trying to talk myself into something I'm not comfortable with, or if I'm just holding myself back from something I really want out of fear. Maybe a little of both. The idea of going back to identifying as 100% male disgusts me, but the idea of going 100% full time as female scares me.
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Sammy

Well, transition as such is scary... And quoting that famous thread we have here - nobody is going to wake up one day as a girl. For many, it is very slow process, step by step, day by day, another small achievement or victory over Yourself... You dont like skirts? Fine - I bet, there are many cis-women who prefer trousers too, just because... well, because they want so - does that make them less women? Sure, not! The same about make-up - there are those who spend a lot of time in front of the mirror, and then there are those who use just a mascara and eyeliner - either because they are naturally pretty or dislike a lot of cosmetics on their face. And both still look good. They are women in all sorts of traditionally manly areas - like military, MMA, law-enforcement etc. Amazons and petite, confident and subtle, girly and tomboyish. Many of them dont fit that female stereotype and this is especially true with transgender individuāls, because in most cases they had been subjected to male social conditioning and everything feminine has been denied to them. And it is the same the other way around – things that we have learned tend to scare the sh..t out of FtM guys here – like walking into the male WC rooms, for example. But I know, that for the first time I would be scared to venture into female WC so I can understand why they are scared to go into the male one, though I think that it is still easier for them.
A good therapist might help You to sort this out, but keep in mind that a bad one might consider that You are not feminine enough for their weird standarts and thus are not transgender at all. So dont let them discourage You, because in the end – only You know the answer and since You joined this board and already posted Your picture in the MtF thread, I think we both know what it is...
Take care and be safe in Your journey!
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: Miyuki on October 19, 2013, 08:51:38 AM
I guess that's sort of why I'm struggling with this decision so much. I like the idea of being a girl, but I don't always feel like one. I really hate testosterone, I enjoy having a feminine appearance, and I like being more in touch with my emotions. But I'm also too embarrassed to wear a skirt in public, have trouble getting used to feminine pronouns, and I don't really mind peeing standing up (as long as no one is standing next to me while I do it). I worry a lot about my appearance, but I don't really like wearing makeup (or at least I've never tried it). I play male oriented video games, but only if I can play as a female character. I think the problem I'm having is that while I'd like to be seen as a girl, I have trouble accepting myself as one. I'm just too used to thinking of myself as male. I always had this clear idea in my head that a girl was something I wanted to be, not something I was.

...this is why I really need to see a therapist to help me sort things out. I can't tell if I'm trying to talk myself into something I'm not comfortable with, or if I'm just holding myself back from something I really want out of fear. Maybe a little of both. The idea of going back to identifying as 100% male disgusts me, but the idea of going 100% full time as female scares me.

I felt that way at first. It really just takes soul searching to find out what you are in our cases. I was scared at first, but now it would feel beneath me in a way to go back. But you have to accept yourself for who you are - whatever you are - to be happy. There are still some days I don't feel 100% female, and when I sit in front of my computer all day and play video games, sometimes I feel guilty when I need to get up and clean or something. I find myself thinking "I'm glad nobody is watching me, they'd probably think I'm not being very girly" .. or something along those lines. But you've gotta remember, we all have vices and skeletons that embarrass us, and women are no different.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Miyuki

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 19, 2013, 09:18:11 AMAnd it is the same the other way around – things that we have learned tend to scare the sh..t out of FtM guys here – like walking into the male WC rooms, for example. But I know, that for the first time I would be scared to venture into female WC so I can understand why they are scared to go into the male one, though I think that it is still easier for them.

I've been going in them my whole life, and even I don't feel comfortable in male restrooms. I usually just go in one of the stalls if it's even remotely busy. But then I still pee standing up. ::)

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 19, 2013, 09:18:11 AMA good therapist might help You to sort this out, but keep in mind that a bad one might consider that You are not feminine enough for their weird standarts and thus are not transgender at all. So dont let them discourage You, because in the end – only You know the answer and since You joined this board and already posted Your picture in the MtF thread, I think we both know what it is...

Oh, believe me, I'm not ever going to be talking into questioning if I'm transgender. I may have some doubts about the actual process of transitioning, but not about that.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on October 19, 2013, 09:18:11 AMTake care and be safe in Your journey!

Thanks, and you know, I have to say, I'm really glad I finally made an account here. More than anything else, it just feels really good to know I'm not alone with what I'm going through.
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Lesley_Roberta

What does it mean to be a girl......

If being around men makes you uncomfortable and being around women makes you feel 'right' you might be more woman than man.

If doing things that girls predominantly seem to do and not liking things guys predominantly do, you might be more woman than man.

If you would rather look like a girl than a man, you might be more woman than man.

If you feel trapped just for being in your own skin, you might be more woman than man if you are in a male body.

All of the above can of course be switched to read the other way around just as easily.

I have been wearing a new night gown. It makes me feel good. The funny thing is, my wife and I generally are clothes optional people. I can just as easily sleep naked as she does. But, the night gown is a form of reassuring for me.

I wear jewellery more so than my wife and possibly even most women, but, it gives me a form of comfort.

Cis people don't need the reassurance, they can't escape the truth of their own bodies. My wife is so clearly 'female' to herself every time she sees herself. I don't have that pleasure.

The real question is not what does it mean to BE a girl, but, what makes YOU feel like a girl?
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Carrie Liz

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, OP.

Whenever you try to define what makes someone a girl by any physical attributes, behavioral attributes, or biology, there are always exceptions. The experience of gender is very much just something that is recognized deep down. Our minds have an innate sense of who we are, and when that innate sense clashes with our reality, we experience gender dysphoria because we are deprived of the ability to express that true self.

This is why there are so many flamboyantly gay feminine males who are still 100% okay being male, and yet there are a lot of butch trans-girls who are totally fine lounging around in flannel and wouldn't touch makeup with a 10-ft pole, and yet very clearly identify as female. It's just an identity that feels "right" to you on a core level, and meshes with your core sense of self.

Gender identity itself is dependent on pre-natal hormone exposure. And it develops completely independently of one's physical body or one's chromosomes. So this is why there is such a wide variety of gender identities. Any lack of T exposure at a specific time tends to make one more likely to identify as female, while T exposure at that same point makes one more likely to identify as male. And this hormone exposure is, again, completely independent of the development of the body, and even of the development of the personality, which is responsible for the huge range of gender expressions that feel "right" to each individual person.
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lovelessheart

very good question. for me, and maybe for others, being a girl is so different in being a boy. this goes back to pre hrt, and how the body feels different on the inside and out. i started hrt in my early 18teens. i finally fed my body what its been needing. i began to feel so much peace. its not about how i look as a girl, of course as long as im seen as one everything is perfectly fine. you know that scarr that you have that you look over everyday because its just a scarr? well this is so much more than that. all i can think of to answer your question is.. if you can see yourself being in a body of an ugly girl.. but still being able to be seen as a girl and be content in your gender.. then you know its right for you.   
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Asfsd4214

I'd say it's a bit like love. You don't need someone to tell you you're in love, and you can self analyse yourself into questioning if you're truly in love, but deep in your heart and soul, it's something you just 'know. There's no need to quantify it.
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Sybil

I'm sorry for the bold, but I felt the need to separate my post into two parts.

Part 1: Biology

I would like to touch a bit on biology and the definition of a female, since it has been mentioned.

Several experts in the field of gender and sex have been arguing that there is much more to defining someone's sex (read: sex, not gender) than chromosomes and genitalia. Aside from intersexed people or rare XY females/XX males that have been used in making this point before, there has also been talk about gender identity playing a large role in defining sex. This includes biological causes of unusual gender identities. Which, if you haven't read about, you can read about some of the leading theories here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

To me, it makes sense: why would we not utilize anything biologically pertaining to our sex to define our sex? Why include only the most basic functions of reproduction? What rule is there that says biological sex MUST be limited to our ability to fertilize or facilitate meiosis? Our society has become tempered to the idea of male or female only pertaining to reproduction. This predates the era in which humanity discovered and encouraged individualism and identities, so it's no real surprise that we're still upholding some archaic interpretations of things.

Part 2: Other Thoughts

As other posters have suggested, I feel that your gender identity being different from your outward body is something that you simply know. I think, for most people, it tends to be easy to resist at first, but over time it becomes a deeper, thicker pull that is difficult to overlook -- and there are no hard and fast rules as to when and where it begins or exactly how it feels for anyone.

Mine has been persistent since childhood, but I hid it out of fear and family abuse. I rallied against it as a teenager. At 18, I gave up and confessed to love ones. I've been working on it since, albeit mostly through finances. Other people scream it until they're recognized when they're a child. Others still bury it until age 40, some times 60 or higher.

There are no rules for you. If it consistently bothers you, I think it's safe to say you have a conflicting gender identity. Heck, even if it doesn't bother you and being female is something that you simply really want, I think it's still worth pursuing. We have had a few posters here who have said it was completely a choice for them to transition as they enjoy life much more on the other side of the fence. I think that's perfectly fine and I'm proud of them for finding happiness, as gender isn't a commodity to be coveted and guarded -- it's a free-flowing part of identity and something that should be available to everyone.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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Lyric

All of the many questions you ask in your opening post are questions that can only be answered satisfactorily by you. While it's great to get the opinions of others here, you won't have really have your answers until you sit down and write your own responses. I suggest you do that.

What it means to be a girl is different to most everyone here. Also, not everyone who wishes to consider themselves feminine entirely considers themselves as "girl". "Girl" is a very simple label that for many of us can have a very complex meaning. I rarely even use the term, myself. I just think of myself as me. The specifics beyond that are really for everybody else's benefit.

~ Lyric ~
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life." - Steve Jobs
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sazzy

I sit replying to this in a hooded sweater, jogging pants and sneakers, very much in 'male mode' My hair is short, I have no make up on, outwardly I am a man. I look over to my wife, a cis female, she shaved her head to donate her hair to a cancer charity that makes wigs for kids undergoing Chemo, our daughter is undergoing such treatment. Anyway, we have similar length hair, she isn't wearing make up, is dressed similarly, yet she looks like a woman. We're both girls, I still feel like one because I am one inside, transitioning doesn't turn me into a girl, it just makes me outwardly appear to be what I always have been. The wigs, make up, girls clothes, they don't make me suddenly become a girl, I like them simply because they make me look like what I feel like, and people then treat me accordingly. My male mode is simply me with no make up on, just the same as a cis woman who isn't wearing any would still be a female, I don't change inside, just because my appearance does. That's just me of course, everyone is different.

Hope that makes sense... Saz xxx
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sam79

What does it mean to me to be a girl?

Interesting question... I might try to over simplify the way I feel. To be a girl just means happiness for me. Because everything falls into place because it's just right and natural. There's no further thought needed beyond that I think. Proof is in the smiles and happiness.

Clothes and expression are all a little secondary. And to a great extent, I've still yet to figure that part out as I make my way through transition. But it will all develop and evolve naturally and I don't need to worry about it :).
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Just Shelly

What ever it may be that defines being a girl to you, will change quite dramatically once you transition.

I have found that rarely does my clothing, hair, gestures, voice....make me feel more like a girl or does it necessarily make anyone else. Sure I rarely leave the house with no make up, but I'm sure if I did I wouldn't be gendered male all of a sudden.

What it means to be a girl is nothing....cis gendered girls do not think about being a girl...nothing will make them feel less or more of a girl....sure cis gendered girls and even myself may feel more girly at times when looking better dressed or hair is looking good....but in the end cis gendered never question there gender.

I still feel like a woman sitting here in my yoga pants and sweatshirt. ....but I could easily question my gender still. Only because I have been a different one at one time. I could sit here in the most feminine dress, makeup, jewelry, painted nails....blah blah...and it's not going to make me feel anymore of a woman.

What makes me feel like a woman is men.....men have defined me as a woman, and sometimes it may not be a good definition (I'm weak, unintelligent, sub servant....but none the less I am female!! Other women have also done this...sometimes catty...sometimes nice.
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Assoluta

I think being female or a woman is purely a sense of identity. A woman who acts in ways that are considered "male" or has "male interests" (which vary by culture and time period to some degree anyway) is still fundamentally different to a man who 'acts' in an identical way. While behaviour/interests etc do have some bearing on identity, and allow expression of it to some degree, in fundamental concept, I believe they are fundamentally peripheral to core identity, including gender identity. If you accept this idea, it makes self-gendering much easier in my view, because your gender identity isn't clouded by one's transgression of societal norms. In a sense, hobbies and stereotypical behaviours, even though they can often reflect one's identity, they can sometimes act as 'noise' around one's true identity, and when you eliminate this noise, your core identity becomes clearer to hear.
It takes balls to go through SRS!

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Kibouo?feature=mhee
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EmmaS

I don't think you can answer this question with any stereotypes because the truth is every individual is different; male or female. Some girls are more feminine, some are more masculine and the same goes for guys too. A tomboy girl is no less of a girl then a prissy girly girl, being female is something more personal than what society manipulates it into. Ultimately, you just have to be honest with yourself and picture yourself living your life as a male and a female and then determine which one fits better. Some days I wonder if it's worth the hassle to transition, but I quickly come to the conclusion that it's essential for me to be happy. Sorry to have such a boring reply to the question, but I just want to make it clear that there are myriad variations of males and females and there isn't anything wrong with that as long as you are being honest to yourself. Hope that helps some, if not, sorry wasting your time.

<3 Emma
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