Appropriate Violence?

[maximusloverus]

So last night was halloween and there were a few events going on in my town. One of these events happened to be a costume contest at a local bar/nightclub. A friend of mine had finally gotten to a point where she was confident in herself enough to enter the costume contest. She is pre hormones, but has passed pretty well. In the small town I live in there are alot of people who have known her before her transition. As she got on stage there was a crowd of really rude and intoxicated guys who started booing her and throwing things while saying things like "Go home F****t" and "It has a d*ck". Neeedless to say it got my blood boiling as i saw the so called security just sat there and let this all happen. I got so heated that I pushed one of the guys telling him to learn some manners and from there it lead to us getting into a fight and getting kicked out. I just wanted to know if there is ever a real time to use violence to defend yourself or someone you care about. I feel horrible that it came down to that level, but I also wasn't going to stand back and let her be disrespected like that.

[Danielle Emmalee]

Well when you ask a question about morals (I'm assuming you're not asking for a legal answer), there's a chance you aren't going to get the same answer from everyone.  In my opinion, violence is never warranted, especially if you are not defending against violence.  Depending on where you live, and the protected status of transgender people there may be legal action available against the rude guys, it would technically be considered hate speech as it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. 

[Cindy]

I'm not surprised that you acted in that way. But I'm not sure it achieved support for her, it may have just entrenched the phobic feelings these bigots have.

Talk and explanation is harder, but can be more permanent, if less instantly satisfactory. 

It's a tough call. Defending a person we love and care for is very difficult.

I hope you and she are safe and OK.

Hugs
Cindy

[Jamie D]

I think it is better not to visit any local bars.

[maximusloverus]

Depending on where you live, and the protected status of transgender people there may be legal action available against the rude guys, it would technically be considered hate speech as it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.

Well unfortunately in the small town that I live in the cops are somewhat of a joke and the legal system here is biased as they would wish we never existed. Most trans people here are getting support and guidance from a city a couple hours away from here where there is more acceptance.

[maximusloverus]

I think it is better not to visit any local bars.

Fortunately we do have a bar that most of the LGBTQ community does frequent and they don't have a problem with us. Going to a different venue probably wasn't the best idea, but we just wanted a change of scenery and plus they play better music. I believe we have learned our lesson.

[suzifrommd]

I've never heard of a situation where violence changed anyone's mind. It seems it is usually met with reciprocal violence.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Ask anyone from the group that learned the hard way what happens when people (who think they are good people) look the other way and do nothing. I'm an expert historian, and my back yard is the first half of the last century.

If you do nothing, you might as well say it is ok too.

Sometimes people can't protect themselves. Sometimes you honestly need to step up and trash the adversary whether asked or not thanked or not.

I am proud that Peace Keeping is a Canadian idea. Yes, we are responsible for stopping fights, we don't star them. And we don't permit people to hurt others.

I'd have kicked some butt. And if you know your history, Canadians can be some of the most brutally effective butt kickers too.

[Sephirah]

I've never heard of a situation where violence changed anyone's mind. It seems it is usually met with reciprocal violence.

Not to mention that a lot of the time, that's exactly what the people who instigate it are expecting. Often that's the whole point. To make you lose your cool, to react, to snap.

Violence is giving them exactly what they want. Showing people that they got to you. That they got inside your head. That they made you do something you wouldn't have otherwise done. That they turned you into someone you don't like.

When you resort to violence, you've already lost the fight.

Whether it's appropriate is for each person to judge based on their own standards, their own morals, their own sense of right and wrong. However, I have found that one of the best ways to be in situations where someone is being a grade-A... uhm... <insert your choice of expletive here>... is to be nice to them. Be the total opposite of the way they're being to you. They can't deal with it. They don't know what to do. It's unnerving and disarming. When the point of winding someone up is in order for them to react, that's the last reaction they will be expecting. And what's more, it will show everyone around said people just how much of a fool they're making themselves look.

[Natkat]

If your are one of those karate dudes who knows alot of tricks how to selfdefense and everything you could sure say something to him and if he tried to pick on a fight he would lose.

But I asume you arn't. and then it could be pretty dangourous. I know a guy who is very queer and out, but he also had experience where he had not done anything simple because he feared the consecounses of violance.
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I think what you can do is to check if they got laws for discriminations and human rights. If they do you can
stand up for the security and police who do not take it serious and follow the rules there suposed to. it actually there responsible to kick in in situations like that, because there the powerfull guys who is to make sure people behave.

you and your friends can also learn self defense for the point of safety. to attack others is not okay but self defense is.

[Devlyn]

That borders on bashing, Beth. Half of all dogs are female, with a word reserved just for them. You said it yourself, stupidity and alcohol is the problem, not men. Hugs, Devlyn

[big kim]

I've never heard of a situation where violence changed anyone's mind. It seems it is usually met with reciprocal violence.

Life's a war zone if you want to survive you have to be prepared to take people down.Hard and fast before it happens to you

[amZo]

If you're in a 'normal' setting and defending yourself or others physically, then sure it's acceptable. But getting in a bar fight over things some clown says is just plain foolish. I know, I know, we all want the drunk clown bar patrons to accept us, but better to avoid them.   

[Skittles]

I agree with most of the above. My personal rules for myself are; A lady always presents herself is a lady. A lady always acts like a lady, never returning unkind for unkind. I never enter into costume contests, or any public acts that can single me out as different, perceived or not. I keep my creep meter turned on and always have a minimum of a plan B. Violence would only be used if the gravest extreme were totally warranted and the only last remaining option. I turn the corner long before that.

I have observed that drunks seldom act like a gentleman in a bar setting. Their self perceived superiority and male license, validated by too much alcohol, can allow them to to act out from any thought of bad behavior. I will not be a potential bed conquest, to show as a trophy for their buddies. So the manly man thing to do, is to show their disapproval of me and keep the manly world order correct. They also do that to most other lesbians too, so I am not alone. That is over riding reason I don't go to bars.

Beer goggles have very limited peripheral vision, so I stay out of their lenses. Hug. Joann

[Lesley_Roberta]

Fortunately I don't even want to be where so much of so much of society are a problem.

Perspective, it's all about perspective.

I don't fight pointless meaningless fights. But, I for one do not subscribe to the notion you lose the moment you fight back.

Nope, I don't let some things get a pass. If I walk past a man, abusing a woman, I won't care if the woman turns on me for trashing her man even while he is trashing her. Sorry girl, if you still want him after I kick his butt, that's your business, but my world has no room for him.

I'm not always even interested in changing someone's mind.

Maybe it's just been too long since the Holocaust, maybe there are just too few people that remember, too few old soldiers to remind us what happens when you look the other way. Maybe humanity is just cursed to forget all the good reasons for not putting up with crap.

And no, I don't like the whole well that's just my morals, or my beliefs or my any other lame sounding justification for objecting to doing anything.

I'm not into the turn the other cheek notion. I'll give a person a fair warning, and then sorry buddy this isn't baseball, and there are no 3 strikes, you were warned.

How many times does humanity need to be reminded eh. Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals, sorry, I am not stepping up to be the next big victim example on a list. This TG person is not your next victim. And no one else is going to be while I'm involved.

[TaoRaven]

I fight words with words. If someone is foolish enough to lay their hands on myself or someone I care for, then they have opened Pandora's Box.

One of the topics that we make sure to go over VERY carefully at the Martial Arts school that I study at is the legal limits of "self defense". IE, when it is OK to defend yourself with violence.

I deal with small minded, ignorant, hateful people all the time. I usually manage to put them in their place thorough clever and intelligent verbal response....once in a while someone gets angry as a result and takes a swing at me. I always make sure that THEY are the instigators of the physical violence, and that I have attracted enough attention / caused enough of a scene that there are plenty of witnesses to testify on my behalf, before I take steps to defend myself in a physical manner.

I guess my point is this....words are just words. Respond in kind. If things get physical, make sure that YOU do not take the first swing, there are plenty of witnesses, and that you can actually back up your mouth.

You do NOT want a felony on your record, and you don't want to end up getting hurt.

Stay safe.

[Lesley_Roberta]

Wise words.

The average bully is easy to cope with if done so wisely. They are likely USED to being able to push and shove and generally get their way. Easy enough to let them take that first move.

I envy your martial arts, I am sure you are taught a great wealth of very cool blocks and dodges.

[LordKAT]

I think there is a time and place for violence. Usually after all other avenues have been tried and failed.

[Lesley_Roberta]

On the surface that makes sense.

Doesn't always work.

Sure didn't work in the 30s.

Sometimes you need to Barney Fife it. (going to wait and see how many of the kids actually get that one ).

[LordKAT]

Do you mean the one bullet kept in your pocket thing?